Can liars and thieves still make heaven?

[Yet]

I told this one before. Walked into a Sunday school class one time. This 'pastor's' wife was hammering home tithing. I raised my hand and respectfully asked, where in the NT is the command for Christians to tithe?'

She referred to the offering that was taken up for the saints in Jerusalem during a famine and I clearified that for her.
She was flabbergasted because someone dared to challenge her on the subject. Most dumb sheep won't. Just sitting there like deers in the headlights....zombies. I'm sorry but I don't know how else to describe churched to death people. I'm tired. God love them but they need to wake up and take some responsibility and quit 'loving it so'!


Any way! So she said to her husband sitting in the front row ' 'pastor', do you want to say anyrhing?'
So he turned to me and said ' Jesus dealt with the Pharisees that were tithing spices and told them that they should have shown mercy and not let the other undone.

I, with tact and quiet respect, said ' the old covenant was still enforce at that time'.

Now here's the climax. He actually conceded with ' ok you're right. There is no place in the new covenant that tells Christians to tithe'.
He said that right in front of about 10 congregants. I've known of this guy for years. He was about 65 years old and been 'pastoring' for decades. He taught no differently than thousands of other 'pastors'.

But now, for the first time in his ministry, so called, he told the truth about tithing in front of the 'church'.
You could hear the proverbial pin drop! A hush over the whole scene. It was intense.

At this point his wife jumped back into the fray and actually answered with this insanity 'well I'm telling you that I don't care if it's not in the NT, you had better pay your tithes to God or you are going to stand guilty before Him one day for 'robbing God'.

I very, very gently tried to chime in with 'excuse me mam, uh, excuse me ...mam but if...excuse me, may I say....'?

At this very point I felt a hand on my shoulder and an elder saying ' lets go. You've got to leave'.

I did not resist. And...I was not shocked or surprised.

He led me out the door. I started to walk away then I heard the 'pastor's' voice. He said 'let me ask you a question. Do you tithe?'
I answered with 'I tithed for years and it hurt my family..and..'

He interrupted me with 'do you tithe now?' I answered 'no'. I give freely....'

He Interrupted again with 'then you have no right to talk about tithing'.

God told me to simply walk away! Shake the dust.

Later I thought about the logical conclusion of what he said could be used with ' unless you are living in adultery, you can't preach against adultery. Unless you are a homosexual, you cannot preach against homosexuality. Unless you are a rapest, you cannot preach against rape. Unless you are an active thief, you have no right to preach against stealing.

Unless you are an active murderer, you have no right to preach against murder.
Unless you are a member of Isis, you have no right to condemn beheadings.
Somebody wake me up when you get there.
How far does the 'church' have to sink before smelling the coffee? Yes I prayed for this man and his poor wife, deceived by covetiousness.

But it does beg the question once again. Do these 2 still have a home waiting for them in glory? Seeing that they are co-conspirators in a lie and in theft, all for fun and profit?
Now multiply this by thousands of other pulpiteers playing the same game, promoting the same bondage upon the weak and the poor. The rich have no problem. Tithing is easy for them.

Now look up the scriptures on what God is going to do with those that 'spoil the widows'.

Again, we are talking about lies and theft....what's going to happen with these hirelings?

 

[purgedconscience]

So he turned to me and said ' Jesus dealt with the Pharisees that were tithing spices and told them that they should have shown mercy and not let the other undone.

I, with tact and quiet respect, said ' the old covenant was still enforce at that time'.

Now here's the climax. He actually conceded with ' ok you're right. There is no place in the new covenant that tells Christians to tithe'.

Let's try this again (for about the 5th time now):

Hebrews chapter 7 verses 1 thru 12

For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

After both the law and the priesthood had been changed or while the Old Covenant was no longer in effect, these Hebrew Christians were told of He, the resurrected Jesus Christ, Who lives and receives tithes. How does He receive them and from whom?

 

[seed_time_harvest]

I told this one before. Walked into a Sunday school class one time. This 'pastor's' wife was hammering home tithing. I raised my hand and respectfully asked, where in the NT is the command for Christians to tithe?'

She referred to the offering that was taken up for the saints in Jerusalem during a famine and I clearified that for her.
She was flabbergasted because someone dared to challenge her on the subject. Most dumb sheep won't. Just sitting there like deers in the headlights....zombies. I'm sorry but I don't know how else to describe churched to death people. I'm tired. God love them but they need to wake up and take some responsibility and quit 'loving it so'!


Any way! So she said to her husband sitting in the front row ' 'pastor', do you want to say anyrhing?'
So he turned to me and said ' Jesus dealt with the Pharisees that were tithing spices and told them that they should have shown mercy and not let the other undone.

I, with tact and quiet respect, said ' the old covenant was still enforce at that time'.

Now here's the climax. He actually conceded with ' ok you're right. There is no place in the new covenant that tells Christians to tithe'.
He said that right in front of about 10 congregants. I've known of this guy for years. He was about 65 years old and been 'pastoring' for decades. He taught no differently than thousands of other 'pastors'.

But now, for the first time in his ministry, so called, he told the truth about tithing in front of the 'church'.
You could hear the proverbial pin drop! A hush over the whole scene. It was intense.

At this point his wife jumped back into the fray and actually answered with this insanity 'well I'm telling you that I don't care if it's not in the NT, you had better pay your tithes to God or you are going to stand guilty before Him one day for 'robbing God'.

I very, very gently tried to chime in with 'excuse me mam, uh, excuse me ...mam but if...excuse me, may I say....'?

At this very point I felt a hand on my shoulder and an elder saying ' lets go. You've got to leave'.

I did not resist. And...I was not shocked or surprised.

He led me out the door. I started to walk away then I heard the 'pastor's' voice. He said 'let me ask you a question. Do you tithe?'
I answered with 'I tithed for years and it hurt my family..and..'

He interrupted me with 'do you tithe now?' I answered 'no'. I give freely....'

He Interrupted again with 'then you have no right to talk about tithing'.

God told me to simply walk away! Shake the dust.

Later I thought about the logical conclusion of what he said could be used with ' unless you are living in adultery, you can't preach against adultery. Unless you are a homosexual, you cannot preach against homosexuality. Unless you are a rapest, you cannot preach against rape. Unless you are an active thief, you have no right to preach against stealing.

Unless you are an active murderer, you have no right to preach against murder.
Unless you are a member of Isis, you have no right to condemn beheadings.
Somebody wake me up when you get there.
How far does the 'church' have to sink before smelling the coffee? Yes I prayed for this man and his poor wife, deceived by covetiousness.

But it does beg the question once again. Do these 2 still have a home waiting for them in glory? Seeing that they are co-conspirators in a lie and in theft, all for fun and profit?
Now multiply this by thousands of other pulpiteers playing the same game, promoting the same bondage upon the weak and the poor. The rich have no problem. Tithing is easy for them.

Now look up the scriptures on what God is going to do with those that 'spoil the widows'.

Again, we are talking about lies and theft....what's going to happen with these hirelings?

I think you have asked a very good question and I am hoping someone that has a very good understanding of OSAS will give an enlightened/enlightening answer.

 

[Yet]

Exodus 22:2 you shall not following a multitude to do evil; neither shall thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest(twist) judgment.
Another way is this, don't follow the crowd in lies and false doctrine, but take a stand for God's truth, even if you must stand alone. And anymore, you're gonna have to. For many will not endure sound doctrine for they have been pulpitized to death. Seeking teachers to tickle their ears.

 

[KennethC]

My question would be; why stop there?

Will people who continue to gossip go to heaven? Gossiping is a sin.

Will people who continue to covet go to heaven? Coveting is a sin.

Will the self-righteous go to heaven? Self-righteousness is a sin.

Will gluttons go to heaven? Gluttony is a sin. (Sorry fat people! You better get thin before you die!)

People will pick certain sins they claim are worse than others, but the truth of the matter is, even one sin will keep you out. The Bible says you must be perfect as God is perfect. That means, you must be as sinless as God.

That's why Jesus had to pay the price for us. One sinless sacrifice for all.

Being in the flesh, there is no way we can live without sinning.

Despite what Jason, Kenneth, and their ilk say, Christians are all sinning saints.

Let's just take a look at your questions,

1) If a person continues to deliberate spread false allegations and lies on others without repentance then no they will not get eternal life.

2) Same as number one, and also shows their trust is in materialistic things and not the Lord our God.

3) No as a self-righteous person only cares about self, therefore they would not do out of love and faith for the Lord.

The Pharisees were self-righteous and the Lord told them a prostitute could get into the kingdom before they ever would!!!

4) Just because a person is over weight does not mean they are living in sin (gluttony), and some need to get over thinking that way as there are medical disorders that cause one to get over weight. Being over weight is not just from over eating !!!

Apostle Paul clearly says in Romans 8 that if you live by the flesh (sinful nature) you will face eternal death, but if you live by the Spirit then you will receive eternal life. The double minded (James 1:8), carnal minded (Romans 8:6), and those who turn away from the truth (2 Peter 2:20-22) will not receive salvation.

The bible does not support one can be disobedient and still receive salvation.

 

[crossnote]

No!! Only perfect perfection makes heaven...He's our only hope.

 

[DiscipleDave]

Will liars and thieves still make heaven?

Simple question!

It may be a simple question, but the answer is not so simple.

The question is which answer do you want to hear. There is the worldly, easy Christianity answer, which liars and thieves will still go to Heaven because when you are Saved can't lose it. And there is the Truth which the Bible teaches.

Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

So should i believe the Scriptures and what they plainly teach, or believe the words of people from the last days generation?

Does that mean no thief will enter into Heaven? If a thief repents and stops stealing, then he is no longer a thief is he?
If a liar repents and stops lying, he/she is no longer a liar is he/she?

Do you see how that works?
No fornicator will enter into Heaven. So if you are one of those people who continue to fornicate, you ARE a fornicator, i don't care what you claim with your mouth "Im Saved", "I'm under the Blood", "I'm under Grace", "Once Saved Always Saved" if you continue to fornicate you ARE a fornicator.
if you continue to commit adultery, you ARE an adulterer.
if you continue to lie, you ARE a liar.
if you continue to steal, you ARE a thief.
So simple children can understand that.
Now if you Repent and cease. (NOTICE, i did not just say repent, i said repent AND CEASE) Then you are no longer seen as an adulterer, a liar, a thief, a fornicator in the eyes of God. But as long as you continue to do those things, you ARE those things and will NOT enter into Heaven, as the Bible plainly teaches, there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth.

No liar will enter into Heaven.
No thief will enter into Heaven.
No adulterer will enter into Heaven.
No fornicator will enter into Heaven.

If you repent and cease to lie, then you are no longer a liar.
If you repent and cease to steal, then you are no longer a thief.
If you repent and cease to commit adultery, then you are no longer an adulterer.
If you repent and cease to have sexual relations, except with your spouse, then you are no longer a fornicator.

How simple is that, how easy to understand that, children can understand and grasp this Truth. But leave it to the wicked generation that teaches you can continue to lie, cheat, and steal, then still go to Heaven, because they cling to the false doctrines that they so dearly love. Again, much weeping and gnashing of teeth on the Day Jesus Returns and they are left behind.

Responding to OP

 

[Budman]

Let's just take a look at your questions,

1) If a person continues to deliberate spread false allegations and lies on others without repentance then no they will not get eternal life.

2) Same as number one, and also shows their trust is in materialistic things and not the Lord our God.

3) No as a self-righteous person only cares about self, therefore they would not do out of love and faith for the Lord.

The Pharisees were self-righteous and the Lord told them a prostitute could get into the kingdom before they ever would!!!

4) Just because a person is over weight does not mean they are living in sin (gluttony), and some need to get over thinking that way as there are medical disorders that cause one to get over weight. Being over weight is not just from over eating !!!

Apostle Paul clearly says in Romans 8 that if you live by the flesh (sinful nature) you will face eternal death, but if you live by the Spirit then you will receive eternal life. The double minded (James 1:8), carnal minded (Romans 8:6), and those who turn away from the truth (2 Peter 2:20-22) will not receive salvation.

The bible does not support one can be disobedient and still receive salvation.

Don't you think heaven is going to be lonely with only you and Jason being there?

 

[dcontroversal]

I think you have asked a very good question and I am hoping someone that has a very good understanding of OSAS will give an enlightened/enlightening answer.

God loves a cheerful giver and it is more blessed to give than to receive!

Muzzle not the ox that treads out the corn and an elder is worthy of double honor!

There are examples in the N.T. of churches taking up an offering for the relief of the poor in other churches, but obviously we are not under the command to tithe!

 

[breno785au]

I like your answers guys but I think its a rhetorical question
2 Corinthians 9:7
Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

 

[dcontroversal]

I like your answers guys but I think its a rhetorical question
2 Corinthians 9:7
Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

Now that is biblical......!

 

[Brother_J_BELGIUM]

Can a person that says they are saved be one of the things in that scripture posted and still make heaven?

Maybe this is talking about the person whose spirit has not been made perfect.

spirit is spirit
flesh is flesh.

Those who are living the way they want (flesh, sinful) will not make it, though those who are not living the way they want but want to do the good thing (spiritual, sins are washed away) will make it.

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[purgedconscience]

God loves a cheerful giver and it is more blessed to give than to receive!

Muzzle not the ox that treads out the corn and an elder is worthy of double honor!

There are examples in the N.T. of churches taking up an offering for the relief of the poor in other churches, but obviously we are not under the command to tithe!

Would you mind giving me your take on this:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-thieves-still-make-heaven-2.html#post2213567

Thank you.

 

[Yet]

I posit these questions and examples to get believers to thinking and possibly repenting and doing a 180 on some of these things. Unless the body start demanding biblical truth, this cronyism will continue on unabated!

 

[purgedconscience]

I posit these questions and examples to get believers to thinking and possibly repenting and doing a 180 on some of these things. Unless the body start demanding biblical truth, this cronyism will continue on unabated!

And you still refuse to answer certain questions which are posited to you. How does the resurrected Christ now receive tithes and who does He receive them from? This is about the 8th time now that I've asked you this question either in public or in private. Ignoring the question and its answer isn't going to make it magically disappear.

 

[Yet]

Do not muzzle the ox. Give that ox his reward....food/grain. The elder that teaches well deserved double honor. Does that mean a double pay check? Of course not. What if you have 5 great teachers in a fellowship of 15 people? What bank do we rob to pay them? Kinda silly, wouldn't you say?
The greek for honor is 'time'. It means respect, appreciation.
The greek for wages is opsonion. Why wasn't this the word used if it meant wages? Because money was not the issue.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Those who are living the way they want (flesh, sinful) will not make it, though those who are not living the way they want but want to do the good thing (spiritual, sins are washed away) will make it.

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

In that scripture you posted do you see the word were?

That's what I mean by you have to be made perfect in the spirit/reborn.
Sounds like you are talking about works salvation to be made perfect.

 

[dcontroversal]

Would you mind giving me your take on this:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-thieves-still-make-heaven-2.html#post2213567

Thank you.

Under the law 10 percent was commanded off the top and given unto the priests...anything beyond 10 percent was considered an offering.....Abraham paid tithes of 10% before the law was given unto the King of Salem (representative of Christ)...while we are not under the law and the direct command to tithe which was applicable unto those who were under the law (The law and prophets were until John) I still believe the principle of giving applies and that principle is applied under the banner of love....We do not give because of a law commanding to give, but rather we give because we love and rejoice in what Christ has done for us...I will even say that God loves a cheerful giver and it is more blessed to give than receive....Christ still receives what we give out of love dia our local church and to be even more honest.....I think under the N.T. banner of grace and mercy we should give more than 10%...I have found in my life the more I give the more I have and the more I am blessed with....at times I have given upwards of 30% of my gross pay (not net) unto the Lord and he has blessed me with raises, bonuses and the ability to retire at 45 from machining parts for jets, missiles and even the space shuttle.........This is the view I have taken and the Lord has blessed me in my endeavors.......

 

[purgedconscience]

Under the law 10 percent was commanded off the top and given unto the priests...anything beyond 10 percent was considered an offering.....Abraham paid tithes of 10% before the law was given unto the King of Salem (representative of Christ)...while we are not under the law and the direct command to tithe which was applicable unto those who were under the law (The law and prophets were until John) I still believe the principle of giving applies and that principle is applied under the banner of love....We do not give because of a law commanding to give, but rather we give because we love and rejoice in what Christ has done for us...I will even say that God loves a cheerful giver and it is more blessed to give than receive....Christ still receives what we give out of love dia our local church and to be even more honest.....I think under the N.T. banner of grace and mercy we should give more than 10%...I have found in my life the more I give the more I have and the more I am blessed with....at times I have given upwards of 30% of my gross pay (not net) unto the Lord and he has blessed me with raises, bonuses and the ability to retire at 45 from machining parts for jets, missiles and even the space shuttle.........This is the view I have taken and the Lord has blessed me in my endeavors.......

That's all fine and good, but you still didn't answer my question. The epistle to the Hebrews tells us that the resurrected Christ receives tithes, so I am asking who He receives them from and how He receives them. Surely He doesn't receive them from unbelievers, right? If He receives them then from believers, then how does He do so?

 

[Brother_J_BELGIUM]

In that scripture you posted do you see the word were?

That's what I mean by you have to be made perfect in the spirit/reborn.
Sounds like you are talking about works salvation to be made perfect.

I'm sorry if it sounded that way, getting salvation for works is an evil doctrine that I do not believe in. What I was trying to say is that if you live like there is no God and sin all you want, then you are surely lost. But on the other hand, Scripture tells us that not everyone saying 'Lord, Lord' will enter heaven, but those who do the will of the Father. Scripture also says 'The devils believe in the Lord too and they tremble', the difference is that the Christian who is truly saved will have that spirit working through him and convincing him/her no longer to sin, to stay away from it. Someone who says he believes in Jesus but lives ungodly is a liar and is not truly saved. The devils believe and they tremble, and they too are all liars and deceivers.