BEWARE

[Israel]

I have seen some pretty good examples of circular reasoning, but this is a good one. What you are saying is disagreeing with what you are quoting.

If we lived before the law, then we could sin without transgressing the law. Until the law came, sin was not a transgression of the law, because the law had not yet come.

What I'm saying is that the ten commandments are spiritual laws and therefore eternal. Sin will always be the transgression of the law. Sin was only imputed upon man when God said in the Garden not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. But here's another example of circular reasoning.

Genesis 1:27-29
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.


Genesis 2:15-17

And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


Now on day six God said that man was free to eat of EVERY TREE. On day seven, Adam was given a commandment not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. What does this mean to you?

 

[VW]

Well, I don't know how to tell you this, but He did away with the commandments in Christ.

 

[VW]

The covenant with the children of Jacob is contained in the commandments. It effectively separates me from God, because I am a Gentile. As long as the covenant contained in the commandments is in force, I am separated from God, as is every other Gentile. Paul was very plain on this point.

Also, the priest hood has been changed, and with it the Law, and for good reason. The Law could not make anything perfect. God demands perfection, as He is perfect. Jesus is perfect, and in Him we too are perfect. Hence the new covenant, with the new commandment.

 

[machew]

Well, I don't know how to tell you this, but He did away with the commandments in Christ.

I know what you mean, but a more correct way of saying this is that Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the law so that we don't have to; so that we could be saved by Grace and not the futility of being saved our works.

 

[VW]

Not really. The commandments kept us from even coming to God, and as Paul said, God removed the barrier in Christ on the cross.

 

[Israel]

Well, I don't know how to tell you this, but He did away with the commandments in Christ.

I know what you mean, but a more correct way of saying this is that Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the law so that we don't have to; so that we could be saved by Grace and not the futility of being saved our works.

Not really. The commandments kept us from even coming to God, and as Paul said, God removed the barrier in Christ on the cross.

you didn't answer my question but here's another

Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

If the commandments are done away with or fufilled, then what commandments are talked about here? And I agree with not being saved by works, but what type of work is meant here?

 

[Mal316]

It's not the commandments that kept us from God. It's sin. The commandments, if we would but keep them, bring us closer to God. That is, we will be consecrated to God and it will be our righteousness for doing so. Numbers 15:40. Deut 6:25. And Deuteronomy chapter 11 promises God's blessings upon us if we keep His commandments.

The problem is, we don't keep them. That's not the fault of the Law. It's ours.

 

[VW]

I did not see your question, so I went back and looked for it. More on that later.

I did not say that there are no commandments. Only that they are new commandments. John tells us what they are, in 1st John. Believe in Him who God has sent, and love one another even as He loves us. These are the commandments of God spoken of the saints in heaven.

Now to your question. Every tree is good for food and to eat. But also, in the garden, besides every other tree, were two trees that man was free to eat of, but for the commandment of God. Interesting, Adam and Eve had only one commandment, not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. One of these two trees was the tree of life. After Adam and Eve broke God's commandment, they were evicted from the garden lest they eat of the tree of life. Both of these trees are different, in that they bear spiritual seed, one knowledge to be like God, and the other to have eternal life like God. Neither of these trees was of those that were given for food.

 

[VW]

It's not the commandments that kept us from God. It's sin. The commandments, if we would but keep them, bring us closer to God. That is, we will be consecrated to God and it will be our righteousness for doing so. Numbers 15:40. Deut 6:25. And Deuteronomy chapter 11 promises God's blessings upon us if we keep His commandments.

The problem is, we don't keep them. That's not the fault of the Law. It's ours.

Read Eph, 2:11-22. It does not support your statement.

 

[machew]

you didn't answer my question but here's another

Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

If the commandments are done away with or fufilled, then what commandments are talked about here? And I agree with not being saved by works, but what type of work is meant here?

To answer this question we will need a little context. Jesus didn't come to do away with the law. Fulfilling the law and doing away with are two different things. Jesus actually makes a clear distinction between the two:

Matthew 5:17-19(NASB)(emphasis mine)

17"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So that means we need to know the difference between fulfilling the law and abolishing/doing away with the law. As I stated before Jesus fulfilled the righteous requirements of the law for us. This does not mean however that we are to ignore what the law says and are able to live lives contrary to the law.

Hebrews 10:15-17(NASB)(emphasis mine)

15 And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,
16" THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART,
AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM,"
He then says,
17" AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS
I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."

Read the following passages in scripture:

Romans 2:13-15 (Paul mentions that now the law is written on their hearts and they follow it by their nature now instead of following it by requirement)

Romans 2:29(Paul mentions that true circumcision by the law's requirements is circumcision of the heart)

Romans 3:21-27(Paul shows that our righteousness is no longer from following the law)

2 Corinthians 3:3(the precepts and the law of God are so written in us that we are a letter of Christ)

You will notice that scripture doesn't say that we are excused to sin or from following the commands of God, but that we do them naturally now when we are in Christ. The law is written on our hearts. So because we have a new nature in Christ obtained by the blood of Jesus, we have the mind and heart of Jesus. Our righteousness is now solely in Jesus, and our good works are because of the nature of Christ in us.

So the righteous works and obedience to God never stopped, but they are now accomplished with a different motive and people are compelled by the Love of Jesus to obey God and do good works, not because they feel they have to.


Hopefully this helps you understand this.

Blessings,

Machew

 

[VW]

Did you read eph chapter 2?

 

[mpaper345]

hello,

The Bible says that creation testifies that there is a God.When we look at creation we can tell that God is a powerful God,an intelligent God,a loving God because He has provided food,clothing and shelter for people.
The Bible says that God loves all people the same for there is no difference between the Gentile and the Jew.God loves all people equally.
Since God is a loving God He would not give different interpretations to different races causing them to fight with each other over different religions.God would only have one word for all people which is the Holy Bible.Jesus Christ being the only savior.
It is common sense that God would only have one message and not different messages for people.
I have read a lot of books and the Holy Bible is the only one that makes sense.The Koran sounds like a joke and repeats itself a lot with babblings of a 5 year old.

21Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob.

22Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come.
23Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.
24Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you.
25I have raised up one from the north, and he shall come: from the rising of the sun shall he call upon my name: and he shall come upon princes as upon morter, and as the potter treadeth clay.
26Who hath declared from the beginning, that we may know? and beforetime, that we may say, He is righteous? yea, there is none that sheweth, yea, there is none that declareth, yea, there is none that heareth your words.
27The first shall say to Zion, Behold, behold them: and I will give to Jerusalem one that bringeth good tidings.
28For I beheld, and there was no man; even among them, and there was no counsellor, that, when I asked of them, could answer a word. 29Behold, they are all vanity; their works are nothing: their molten images are wind and confusion(Isaiah 41:21-29).

God challenges all religions and people to prove that their religion is true and to prove that their God is real by showing the future before it happens.God said no man will be able to do that and nobody has done it and nobody ever will show the future from the beginning.
God of the Holy Bible told us the whole history of mankind and what they will do worldwide and told us of what will be beyond the grave for all eternity.No other religion or person will be able to do that proving that God of the Holy Bible is the true God so we should go by what He says that Jesus is the only salvation and to live a godly life led by His Spirit.

Matt

 

[VW]

I am trying to get my mind around how you present this. God did chose a people, the children of Jacob. He abolished the barrier of separation, namely the commandments, in Jesus on the cross so that we too could be joined to God in Jesus Christ.

If God was providing food and clothing to every person, then no one would starve.

Common sense does not apply to God.

 

[imoss]

This post has tremendous conviction and some may not understand it because they do not have the same conviction. This conviction is rooted in the heart through the word, the cross and through the Holy Spirit. This rooted conviction in the heart reveals a sound mind concerning Christ and Him crucified and a very sound faith that can not be swerved by any kind of religious dogma or pseudo spirituality that does not come from God. When you have a sound mind because of sound doctrine in the heart and soul, anything out side of the truth that the heart is established in through grace will immediately be discerned for what it is. The Holy Spirit of truth within will not witness that these things are of God and should be rejected so that they do not enter the mind which are designed to cause confusion and complacency having a good sound or ring tone.

Mt 11:15-17 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.

Thank you for that Shad... you have a much better way with words than I, but you seem to understand.

 

[Israel]

The bottom line is that All religion breaks the commandments of God. The commandments spoken by God on the mountain are spiritual and thus forever! We know that to steal or kill is wrong even after Jesus fufilled the law, although we've might have never heard or read it in a book. But what of the Sabbath? Jesus fufilled the letter which was added because of our transgression, but how is it fufilled spiritually? Contrary to popurlar beliefs, Jesus is not our Sabbath, and this special day has nothing to do with Saturday or Sunday whatsoever! We must understand its meaning if we are to truly rest from our works. Again, we were made in God's image and not the other way around.

 

[VW]

The bottom line is that All religion breaks the commandments of God. The commandments spoken by God on the mountain are spiritual and thus forever! We know that to steal or kill is wrong even after Jesus fufilled the law, although we've might have never heard or read it in a book. But what of the Sabbath? Jesus fufilled the letter which was added because of our transgression, but how is it fufilled spiritually? Contrary to popurlar beliefs, Jesus is not our Sabbath, and this special day has nothing to do with Saturday or Sunday whatsoever! We must understand its meaning if we are to truly rest from our works. Again, we were made in God's image and not the other way around.

Why don't you speak plainly, and say what you want to say, but seem to be unwilling to do so?

 

[Israel]

Why don't you speak plainly, and say what you want to say, but seem to be unwilling to do so?

James 3:1-3
My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

2For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body. 3Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.

You had mentioned earlier about circular reasoning. Have you noticed that the Bible is filled with them? Man has broken every commandment ever given by God. It would be foolish for us to believe that the commandment not to tamper with the Bible is the only one that we have obeyed. I'm trying to get people to think outside of the box, if you will, to look at the meaning of the ones I have listed and others that they might come across. What is the Bible trying to tell us? I can plainly state what I see but I tend to scare alot of people away. So I try to follow the Bible's example of giving just enough crumbs to lead the horse in that direction. Jesus stated that He was Lord even of the Sabbath. Is He not also Lord of the other six days as well? These and others is what I believe we must truly understand in order to completely worship in spirit and in truth!

 

[MyBagsRPacked]

I want all who enter into these forums to be aware that there are postings in here that are not relevant to the foundation of the belief of Christians in the Lord Jesus Christ as Lord and savior. There are some posting in here who would have us believe the "all roads lead to heaven as long as we have a pure heart" GARBAGE. We need to only rely on Jesus Christ and his price paid for our eternal salvation. GOD"S word says to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and I"m sticking with that. I will disregard ALL of the posts of the IMPOSTER who states that he is a Christian but comes in posting Universalist garbage that all roads lead to the Father and who are we to judge the heart of a budhist/muslim. These are insidious lies and I question ones motives to be on this site obviously trying to sway people to his way of thinking which is basically spitting on the finished work that is in Christ Jesus. Check yourself at the login point when you enter into our place of fellowship and worship and keep satans lies out of our rooms as we do not seek to cause anyone to stumble in the VERY basics of our faith & that is that JESUS IS OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR AND NO ONE... NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT BY HIM! Now that being said, I have absolutely no problem with folks debating doctrine & their ideas about the Holy spirit and all the things we come here to discuss... My problem is when posters come here with an agenda to separate people from the foundation of their faith or to cause seekers who come on here to wonder "what do Christians really think" do they think that I as a budhist am saved... if so, why come to the Lord? Anyway I hope this hits the imposter right in the heart of the matter and causes him to truly question why he has been led away from the finished work in Christ and why he chooses to enter into a Christian website to lead others away. those who are not for christ are.... anti-Christ, what are you? Truly it is black or white no grey area here. You either believe & receive Christ or you dont.

AMEN to that....that`s why they created the ignore list

 

[imoss]

My concern is not to my own understanding as I have a foundation cemented in Christ. My concern is those who dont know the Lord or who are new to the Lord and how what we post in here as Christians is being processed and we should always strive to get it right & MOST especially should not sway to the new age way of thinking on the VERY basics of our doctrine.

 

[Israel]

My concern is not to my own understanding as I have a foundation cemented in Christ. My concern is those who dont know the Lord or who are new to the Lord and how what we post in here as Christians is being processed and we should always strive to get it right & MOST especially should not sway to the new age way of thinking on the VERY basics of our doctrine.

Might I ask, what is your understanding of the Bible?