If you do not understand grace ...

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V

Viligant_Warrior

Guest
#1
… then we have to talk. If you believe that salvation can be lost, then we have to talk. If you think that anything you do in “righteousness” preserves your salvation, then we have to talk.

We have to talk because you, brother or sister, are wrong.

If you adhere to any of these teachings, then you do not understand grace. If you don’t understand grace, then you do not understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If you do not understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ, then you may not even be saved.

If anyone believes these tenets, they are essentially practicing a man-made religion. Though you may claim the name of Jesus Christ, though you may know Scripture, and though you think you are able to use that Scripture to support what you believe, you are not led by the Holy Spirit.

Sin makes us thick-headed, unable or unwilling to accept certain truths, particularly when our place of worship fails to give even minimal attention to what the Bible actually teaches, or worse, misrepresents -- either knowingly or unknowingly -- what the word of God says. All these doctrines come from men. They are not taught in the Bible, no matter how insistent your teachers or you are that you can support your views biblically.

Consider this very carefully: All belief systems except biblical Christianity encourage us to believe that we contribute to our salvation, even if they deceitfully assert otherwise. That is precisely what many of the modern denominations do, preaching a Christ who demands we “help Him out” in providing our salvation, through our so-called good deeds and adherence to a set of rules.

We may not call these rules “The Law” as the Israelites called what Moses received from God on Sinai, but we nonetheless are Lawkeepers if we believe anything we do gets us saved or keeps us saved. If you go to a church that teaches these things, you are not in a biblically sound church. They are teaching you to believe in a works-based salvation, even if the leadership or you deny that is the case.

In short, if you have to “do” anything to be saved beyond believing in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, you are practicing a works-based salvation.

Saving grace is unmerited. The very meaning of the Greek word cavrisma (charisma) is “in favor in which one receives without merit of his own.” It is absolutely necessary that grace be unmerited, as Paul wrote.

Romans 3, NASB
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Paul goes on to assert that we are saved apart from the Law, absent of “doing” and must be dependent on believing – faith alone, through the grace of God alone, for salvation.

Romans 3
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Look carefully at these verses. Paul clearly states in v. 21 that “apart from the Law, the righteousness of God has been manifested.” Where is it manifested? “Through faith in Jesus Christ” that righteousness is manifested in the believer! It could not be any more plainly stated, but many miss the obvious in that statement.

We have no righteousness of our own. We never have. We never will, either joined to or separate from Christ. He must manifest His righteousness in us through our faith in Him, being honored by the Father through the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit who affirms our salvation as the down payment Paul says He is, toward our redemption, in Ephesians 1:13, 14.

Often ignored are the last few words of v. 22 flowing into the rest of the passage. Look at those words closely: “for there is no distinction.” What is Paul saying there?

He makes plain that there is no difference of nation, age, sex, nor of state and condition, in Christ. There is no respect to be had for persons or works. Nor is there any difference with respect to weak or strong believers. The righteousness is equally applied to one as to another, and one is as much justified by it in the sight of God as another.

In short, behavior is irrelevant. You can cite all the verses and passages you want that you claim “prove” behavior is mandatory for salvation, but in doing so, you make a liar of God, Who inspired Paul to write these great promises in his letter to the Roman church.

That makes v. 23 a difficult pill for those who practice a works-based salvation to swallow, because in light of the end of v. 22, it is obvious Paul writes not of nonbelievers, but of believers who sin. For, going on in v. 24, he says that those who have sinned – a phrase in the aorist tense in the Greek, meaning ongoing, continuing sin emanating from a single event, which is the fall of Adam – are seen as spotless, blameless, without blemish when they have believed in Jesus Christ.

We are justified not by anything we do, but by our faith in Jesus Christ. The Greek word is dikaioo (dikaioo), meaning “render righteous.” Rendering us righteous is a command of the Father, not something we actually are or can be. It is what God considers us to be, because we have been redeemed by the blood of His Son, Jesus Christ.

Jesus is said to have been “publicly displayed, in v. 25, “as a propitiation … “ That’s a confusing word for some, but it is best understood as an appeasement, or expiation, which means to make amends and reparations for wrongdoing.

In the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament done by Jewish scholars in the third century B.C., the word is used to describe the cover of the Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of Holies, The Ark lid was sprinkled with the blood of the expiatory victim – a lamb without blemish – on the annual Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur).

That was the rite signifying that the life of the people, the loss of which they was merited by their sins, was offered to God in the blood as the life of the victim. God, by this ceremony, was appeased and the sins of the nation of Israel expiated. Hence the lid on the Ark is known as ‘the expiation,” the propitiatory.

In calling Christ the “propitiation” then, God, through Paul, is saying that by the death of Christ, He is appeased regarding all sin. When we become believers in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross, our sin is set aside, ignored by God. Do not be confused by the word “previously” in v. 25.

There is no doubt all the sin of the believer – past, present, future – is covered in Christ’s blood, as indicated by the phrase “His righteousness at the present time.” As another aorist tense verb, this shows that Christ’s sacrifice is sufficient for all sin for all time, dependent only upon faith through the grace of God.

And once we are justified – rendered righteous – by the power of God due to our faith in Him, who is strong enough to overcome that power? No man, that is for certain. Man can no more undo the declaration of righteousness granted him at the moment of faith than he can undo the declaration of God to bring the universe into existence.

We have no merit, even as believers, before a Holy and Righteous God. In His mercy, however, He has chosen to write on our hearts, as believers, a faith based on the effectual sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. As the lamb on the altar of Yom Kippur provided atonement, though only on a temporary basis, for sin, the blood atonement of Christ provides us with saving grace that cannot be revoked.

When we, as the sheep following the Shepherd, come to the realization of the overwhelming weight of love required to accomplish this on our behalf when we did not deserve it, we ultimately come to the conclusion that such love must be reciprocated.

But what can we do for the All Powerful and Loving God who not only spoke the universe into existence, but spoke us into eternal life upon the moment we confessed to being helpless sinners in need of a Savior?

Nothing more and nothing less than the love He generates in us, reflected back to Him through the love of Himself, and others: Our wife, our children, our family, our church, our coworkers, even strangers on the street. “Obedience,” as Paul said, is based in faith.

Romans 1
1 Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus …
5 … through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake …

Obedience is faith. Obedience is love. If you make it anything else, you do not know the Gospel. Your salvation is in question. Correct that as soon as possible.
 
Aug 10, 2015
52
0
0
#2
2 Peter 1:9 Anyone who lacks them is blind and shortsighted, forgetful of the cleansing of his past sins.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#3
… then we have to talk. If you believe that salvation can be lost, then we have to talk. If you think that anything you do in “righteousness” preserves your salvation, then we have to talk.

We have to talk because you, brother or sister, are wrong.

If you adhere to any of these teachings, then you do not understand grace. If you don’t understand grace, then you do not understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If you do not understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ, then you may not even be saved.

If anyone believes these tenets, they are essentially practicing a man-made religion. Though you may claim the name of Jesus Christ, though you may know Scripture, and though you think you are able to use that Scripture to support what you believe, you are not led by the Holy Spirit.

Sin makes us thick-headed, unable or unwilling to accept certain truths, particularly when our place of worship fails to give even minimal attention to what the Bible actually teaches, or worse, misrepresents -- either knowingly or unknowingly -- what the word of God says. All these doctrines come from men. They are not taught in the Bible, no matter how insistent your teachers or you are that you can support your views biblically.

Consider this very carefully: All belief systems except biblical Christianity encourage us to believe that we contribute to our salvation, even if they deceitfully assert otherwise. That is precisely what many of the modern denominations do, preaching a Christ who demands we “help Him out” in providing our salvation, through our so-called good deeds and adherence to a set of rules.

We may not call these rules “The Law” as the Israelites called what Moses received from God on Sinai, but we nonetheless are Lawkeepers if we believe anything we do gets us saved or keeps us saved. If you go to a church that teaches these things, you are not in a biblically sound church. They are teaching you to believe in a works-based salvation, even if the leadership or you deny that is the case.

In short, if you have to “do” anything to be saved beyond believing in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, you are practicing a works-based salvation.

Saving grace is unmerited. The very meaning of the Greek word cavrisma (charisma) is “in favor in which one receives without merit of his own.” It is absolutely necessary that grace be unmerited, as Paul wrote.
Romans 3, NASB
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Paul goes on to assert that we are saved apart from the Law, absent of “doing” and must be dependent on believing – faith alone, through the grace of God alone, for salvation.
Romans 3
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Look carefully at these verses. Paul clearly states in v. 21 that “apart from the Law, the righteousness of God has been manifested.” Where is it manifested? “Through faith in Jesus Christ” that righteousness is manifested in the believer! It could not be any more plainly stated, but many miss the obvious in that statement.

We have no righteousness of our own. We never have. We never will, either joined to or separate from Christ. He must manifest His righteousness in us through our faith in Him, being honored by the Father through the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit who affirms our salvation as the down payment Paul says He is, toward our redemption, in Ephesians 1:13, 14.

Often ignored are the last few words of v. 22 flowing into the rest of the passage. Look at those words closely: “for there is no distinction.” What is Paul saying there?

He makes plain that there is no difference of nation, age, sex, nor of state and condition, in Christ. There is no respect to be had for persons or works. Nor is there any difference with respect to weak or strong believers. The righteousness is equally applied to one as to another, and one is as much justified by it in the sight of God as another.

In short, behavior is irrelevant. You can cite all the verses and passages you want that you claim “prove” behavior is mandatory for salvation, but in doing so, you make a liar of God, Who inspired Paul to write these great promises in his letter to the Roman church.

That makes v. 23 a difficult pill for those who practice a works-based salvation to swallow, because in light of the end of v. 22, it is obvious Paul writes not of nonbelievers, but of believers who sin. For, going on in v. 24, he says that those who have sinned – a phrase in the aorist tense in the Greek, meaning ongoing, continuing sin emanating from a single event, which is the fall of Adam – are seen as spotless, blameless, without blemish when they have believed in Jesus Christ.

We are justified not by anything we do, but by our faith in Jesus Christ. The Greek word is dikaioo (dikaioo), meaning “render righteous.” Rendering us righteous is a command of the Father, not something we actually are or can be. It is what God considers us to be, because we have been redeemed by the blood of His Son, Jesus Christ.

Jesus is said to have been “publicly displayed, in v. 25, “as a propitiation … “ That’s a confusing word for some, but it is best understood as an appeasement, or expiation, which means to make amends and reparations for wrongdoing.

In the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament done by Jewish scholars in the third century B.C., the word is used to describe the cover of the Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of Holies, The Ark lid was sprinkled with the blood of the expiatory victim – a lamb without blemish – on the annual Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur).

That was the rite signifying that the life of the people, the loss of which they was merited by their sins, was offered to God in the blood as the life of the victim. God, by this ceremony, was appeased and the sins of the nation of Israel expiated. Hence the lid on the Ark is known as ‘the expiation,” the propitiatory.

In calling Christ the “propitiation” then, God, through Paul, is saying that by the death of Christ, He is appeased regarding all sin. When we become believers in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross, our sin is set aside, ignored by God. Do not be confused by the word “previously” in v. 25.

There is no doubt all the sin of the believer – past, present, future – is covered in Christ’s blood, as indicated by the phrase “His righteousness at the present time.” As another aorist tense verb, this shows that Christ’s sacrifice is sufficient for all sin for all time, dependent only upon faith through the grace of God.

And once we are justified – rendered righteous – by the power of God due to our faith in Him, who is strong enough to overcome that power? No man, that is for certain. Man can no more undo the declaration of righteousness granted him at the moment of faith than he can undo the declaration of God to bring the universe into existence.

We have no merit, even as believers, before a Holy and Righteous God. In His mercy, however, He has chosen to write on our hearts, as believers, a faith based on the effectual sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. As the lamb on the altar of Yom Kippur provided atonement, though only on a temporary basis, for sin, the blood atonement of Christ provides us with saving grace that cannot be revoked.

When we, as the sheep following the Shepherd, come to the realization of the overwhelming weight of love required to accomplish this on our behalf when we did not deserve it, we ultimately come to the conclusion that such love must be reciprocated.

But what can we do for the All Powerful and Loving God who not only spoke the universe into existence, but spoke us into eternal life upon the moment we confessed to being helpless sinners in need of a Savior?

Nothing more and nothing less than the love He generates in us, reflected back to Him through the love of Himself, and others: Our wife, our children, our family, our church, our coworkers, even strangers on the street. “Obedience,” as Paul said, is based in faith.
Romans 1
1 Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus …
5 … through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake …

Obedience is faith. Obedience is love. If you make it anything else, you do not know the Gospel. Your salvation is in question. Correct that as soon as possible.
I dont believe you can loose your salvation...but you can walk away from it.We have free will.You can accept a gift or reject it. The Bible is clear that you can turn back,or away from God.So no,you cant loose salvation,but you can choose to walk away.Just like Judas did.
 
V

Viligant_Warrior

Guest
#4
I dont believe you can loose your salvation...but you can walk away from it.We have free will.You can accept a gift or reject it.
So, essentially, you believe you are greater than the God of the universe who declared you righteous when you believed, hm? Interesting.

The Bible is clear that you can turn back,or away from God.
Really? and where would that be, please? And, if you believe you can provide Scripture to support it, please explain how you can accept that it will contradict what I quoted and exegeted from Romans 3.

So no,you cant loose salvation,but you can choose to walk away.Just like Judas did.
Judas never had it, so he didn't walk away from it. He never was redeemed.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#5
… then we have to talk. If you believe that salvation can be lost, then we have to talk. If you think that anything you do in “righteousness” preserves your salvation, then we have to talk.

We have to talk because you, brother or sister, are wrong.

If you adhere to any of these teachings, then you do not understand grace. If you don’t understand grace, then you do not understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If you do not understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ, then you may not even be saved.

If anyone believes these tenets, they are essentially practicing a man-made religion. Though you may claim the name of Jesus Christ, though you may know Scripture, and though you think you are able to use that Scripture to support what you believe, you are not led by the Holy Spirit.

Sin makes us thick-headed, unable or unwilling to accept certain truths, particularly when our place of worship fails to give even minimal attention to what the Bible actually teaches, or worse, misrepresents -- either knowingly or unknowingly -- what the word of God says. All these doctrines come from men. They are not taught in the Bible, no matter how insistent your teachers or you are that you can support your views biblically.

Consider this very carefully: All belief systems except biblical Christianity encourage us to believe that we contribute to our salvation, even if they deceitfully assert otherwise. That is precisely what many of the modern denominations do, preaching a Christ who demands we “help Him out” in providing our salvation, through our so-called good deeds and adherence to a set of rules.

We may not call these rules “The Law” as the Israelites called what Moses received from God on Sinai, but we nonetheless are Lawkeepers if we believe anything we do gets us saved or keeps us saved. If you go to a church that teaches these things, you are not in a biblically sound church. They are teaching you to believe in a works-based salvation, even if the leadership or you deny that is the case.

In short, if you have to “do” anything to be saved beyond believing in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, you are practicing a works-based salvation.

Saving grace is unmerited. The very meaning of the Greek word cavrisma (charisma) is “in favor in which one receives without merit of his own.” It is absolutely necessary that grace be unmerited, as Paul wrote.
Romans 3, NASB
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Paul goes on to assert that we are saved apart from the Law, absent of “doing” and must be dependent on believing – faith alone, through the grace of God alone, for salvation.
Romans 3
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Look carefully at these verses. Paul clearly states in v. 21 that “apart from the Law, the righteousness of God has been manifested.” Where is it manifested? “Through faith in Jesus Christ” that righteousness is manifested in the believer! It could not be any more plainly stated, but many miss the obvious in that statement.

We have no righteousness of our own. We never have. We never will, either joined to or separate from Christ. He must manifest His righteousness in us through our faith in Him, being honored by the Father through the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit who affirms our salvation as the down payment Paul says He is, toward our redemption, in Ephesians 1:13, 14.

Often ignored are the last few words of v. 22 flowing into the rest of the passage. Look at those words closely: “for there is no distinction.” What is Paul saying there?

He makes plain that there is no difference of nation, age, sex, nor of state and condition, in Christ. There is no respect to be had for persons or works. Nor is there any difference with respect to weak or strong believers. The righteousness is equally applied to one as to another, and one is as much justified by it in the sight of God as another.

In short, behavior is irrelevant. You can cite all the verses and passages you want that you claim “prove” behavior is mandatory for salvation, but in doing so, you make a liar of God, Who inspired Paul to write these great promises in his letter to the Roman church.

That makes v. 23 a difficult pill for those who practice a works-based salvation to swallow, because in light of the end of v. 22, it is obvious Paul writes not of nonbelievers, but of believers who sin. For, going on in v. 24, he says that those who have sinned – a phrase in the aorist tense in the Greek, meaning ongoing, continuing sin emanating from a single event, which is the fall of Adam – are seen as spotless, blameless, without blemish when they have believed in Jesus Christ.

We are justified not by anything we do, but by our faith in Jesus Christ. The Greek word is dikaioo (dikaioo), meaning “render righteous.” Rendering us righteous is a command of the Father, not something we actually are or can be. It is what God considers us to be, because we have been redeemed by the blood of His Son, Jesus Christ.

Jesus is said to have been “publicly displayed, in v. 25, “as a propitiation … “ That’s a confusing word for some, but it is best understood as an appeasement, or expiation, which means to make amends and reparations for wrongdoing.

In the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament done by Jewish scholars in the third century B.C., the word is used to describe the cover of the Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of Holies, The Ark lid was sprinkled with the blood of the expiatory victim – a lamb without blemish – on the annual Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur).

That was the rite signifying that the life of the people, the loss of which they was merited by their sins, was offered to God in the blood as the life of the victim. God, by this ceremony, was appeased and the sins of the nation of Israel expiated. Hence the lid on the Ark is known as ‘the expiation,” the propitiatory.

In calling Christ the “propitiation” then, God, through Paul, is saying that by the death of Christ, He is appeased regarding all sin. When we become believers in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross, our sin is set aside, ignored by God. Do not be confused by the word “previously” in v. 25.

There is no doubt all the sin of the believer – past, present, future – is covered in Christ’s blood, as indicated by the phrase “His righteousness at the present time.” As another aorist tense verb, this shows that Christ’s sacrifice is sufficient for all sin for all time, dependent only upon faith through the grace of God.

And once we are justified – rendered righteous – by the power of God due to our faith in Him, who is strong enough to overcome that power? No man, that is for certain. Man can no more undo the declaration of righteousness granted him at the moment of faith than he can undo the declaration of God to bring the universe into existence.

We have no merit, even as believers, before a Holy and Righteous God. In His mercy, however, He has chosen to write on our hearts, as believers, a faith based on the effectual sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. As the lamb on the altar of Yom Kippur provided atonement, though only on a temporary basis, for sin, the blood atonement of Christ provides us with saving grace that cannot be revoked.

When we, as the sheep following the Shepherd, come to the realization of the overwhelming weight of love required to accomplish this on our behalf when we did not deserve it, we ultimately come to the conclusion that such love must be reciprocated.

But what can we do for the All Powerful and Loving God who not only spoke the universe into existence, but spoke us into eternal life upon the moment we confessed to being helpless sinners in need of a Savior?

Nothing more and nothing less than the love He generates in us, reflected back to Him through the love of Himself, and others: Our wife, our children, our family, our church, our coworkers, even strangers on the street. “Obedience,” as Paul said, is based in faith.
Romans 1
1 Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus …
5 … through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake …

Obedience is faith. Obedience is love. If you make it anything else, you do not know the Gospel. Your salvation is in question. Correct that as soon as possible.
Amen!

But, you'll get a lot of amens from people who believe salvation and justification come through the act of their free will, so they still deserve it.
 
O

oldthennew

Guest
#6
only reason we're here, is that we acknowledge what our Saviour has done for us, to the ut-most degree,
else,
we would agree, together, that there really is NO REASON to LIVE, among all of the bazzarness and wickedness =
it's over=whelming, and goes beyond anything that we can come up with in our minds or that we can pretend that is
reasonable.....or acceptable.....

even so, Lord Jesus, Come....
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,706
3,650
113
#7
2 Peter 1:9 Anyone who lacks them is blind and shortsighted, forgetful of the cleansing of his past sins.
A Christian may grow unfruitful due to forgetting the grace of God they've had through the forgiveness of their sins, but no indication of the loss of salvation in that passage. ..

2 Peter 1:3-9 (KJV)
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
#8
AMEN and I agree...In the grace you are, having been saved out of faith and that not of yourselves...it is the GIFT of God and not of works lest any man boast...THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES is directed at the word faith...it is the faith and work of Christ which eternally saves, seals, justifies and sanctifies the believer "positionally" in Christ forever...!
 
S

skylove7

Guest
#9
A Christian may grow unfruitful due to forgetting the grace of God they've had through the forgiveness of their sins, but no indication of the loss of salvation in that passage. ..

2 Peter 1:3-9 (KJV)
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
Awesome reminder! Thank you crossnote! I sooo needed to remember this now!
 
V

Viligant_Warrior

Guest
#10
A Christian may grow unfruitful due to forgetting the grace of God they've had through the forgiveness of their sins, but no indication of the loss of salvation in that passage. ..

2 Peter 1:3-9 (KJV)
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
This crowd simply loves to lift Scripture out of context and try to force it to say something it does not say. Good catch, Cross.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#11
A Christian may grow unfruitful due to forgetting the grace of God they've had through the forgiveness of their sins, but no indication of the loss of salvation in that passage. ..

2 Peter 1:3-9 (KJV)
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
Side question: Can I skip the patience part? :eek:
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#13
So, essentially, you believe you are greater than the God of the universe who declared you righteous when you believed, hm? Interesting.

Really? and where would that be, please? And, if you believe you can provide Scripture to support it, please explain how you can accept that it will contradict what I quoted and exegeted from Romans 3.


Judas never had it, so he didn't walk away from it. He never was redeemed.




Calm down VW,you and I almost always agree,lets not go at each others throats here. I have wonderful Christian friends that believe OSAS. I have avoided this subject since I have joined this site because I find that OSAS will always answer "they were never saved in the first place" to any situation you may bring up.So I'll share a few verses but Im not getting into a knock down drag them out fight over this. Peter denied Christ 3 times,was he never saved?

Rev 2 --
Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.


Heb 3---
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.



1 Tim---
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.

Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

2Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Matthew 13:18-23
18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means:
19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path.
20 The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy.
21 But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.
Mark 13:13 says:
[Jesus said] “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

. “Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul” (Hebrews 10:38-39).

“And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God” (Luke 9:62).


 
K

KennethC

Guest
#14
A Christian may grow unfruitful due to forgetting the grace of God they've had through the forgiveness of their sins, but no indication of the loss of salvation in that passage. ..

2 Peter 1:3-9 (KJV)
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

There maybe no mention of those exact words in that passage but why did you stop at verse 9, as you need the rest after that which goes with it;


2 Peter 1:9-12

For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;

For so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

For this reason I will not be negligent to remind you always of these things, though you know and are established in the present truth.


Apostle Peter says if you do those things then an entrance will be supplied to you into the kingdom of Christ, as in you will receive eternal life. And he says to always be reminded of these things so that you may be established in the truth !!!

Here again is one of many from Apostle Paul:

Acts 20:28-31


28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.

30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.

31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#15
Only by understanding grace can you understand sanctification.

I cannot be saved apart from grace and I cannot progress in my sanctification apart from grace. If I lean to my own understanding I will fall. As long as I trust Christ I will persevere. Through Christ I overcome. I run the race not to salvation but to sanctification and ultimate glorification with my Savior.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Feb 9, 2010
2,486
39
0
#16
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast(Ephesians 2:8-9).

We are saved by grace through faith,so we have to have faith before grace is applied to our life.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also(James 2:20-26).

We have to have faith before grace is applied to our life,and we have to have works before faith is applied to our life to have grace applied to our life,but these are works of the Spirit,and not works of the flesh.

No flesh can live up to the law but by the Spirit we can live up to the law,for a Spirit led life will not fulfill the desires of the flesh.


[SUP]16 [/SUP]All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works(2 Timothy 3:16-17).

We are prepared unto all good works,so we have to have works to have faith activated in our life,to have grace applied to our life,but these are works of the Spirit,like preaching the Gospel,feeding the poor,and general goodness towards mankind,which we know we should do.

When the Bible says we are not saved by works,it means anything we do according to the flesh to try to have a relationship with God,like the Old Testament physical covenant,or false religions,or when claiming Christ but doing things according to the flesh.Anything we do according to the flesh will not cause us to have a relationship with God,but when we confess Christ and receive the Spirit,then we have to have works of the Spirit to have faith activated in our life,to have grace applied to our life,and find favor with God.

No flesh can live up to the law because the flesh does not have the power to keep the law,so no person can be justified by the law because they cannot live up to it,but by the Spirit we can live up to the law,then it is by the leading of the Spirit that we can live up to the law,and not the flesh.

Paul said we do not void out the law,but we establish it.Everybody has to live up to the law,but in the Old Testament they could not do it because it was a physical covenant,and they could not have the Spirit to do it,but in the New Testament it is a spiritual covenant,and we can have the Spirit to live up to the law,and fulfill it,which are God's moral laws,and laws of love.

The Bible says a Spirit led life will not fulfill the desires of the flesh,which means a person that is led of the Spirit cannot sin,although they still have the capacity to sin if they desire,but if led by the Spirit they cannot sin.

When the Bible says people who are led of the Spirit are not under ther law,it means that their sins are forgiven,and they are led of the Spirit,so they have no sins applied to them and they allow the Spirit to lead them to live like Christ and not sin,therefore the law cannot touch them for prosecution.

But if a person that is led of the Spirit decides to sin,then while they are sinning they are back under the law,until they decide to repent of their sins and allow the Spirit to lead them,then they are not under the law.

We have to have works when living for God,but these are not works going towards our salvation,but works of the Spirit which causes us to love people the way we should and further the kingdom of God,but if people do not do these works but do nothing for the kingdom of God,then faith is not activated in their life,and grace is not applied in their life,then how are they saved.

But it would seem like this would be a rare case,for practically all people who confess Christ will do something for the kingdom of God,but what if they do not obey the Spirit when the Spirit wants them to feed certain people,or witness to them,but ignore it,are they ignoring works that could cause faith to cease.Does everybody that lives for Christ actually do all that God wants them to do,and if not,is faith in their life the way it should be,if they are agnoring the works that God wants them to do.

Of course I have to refer to myself too,but do we actually do all that God wants us to do,or do we do our job and go home and it is all about us,go to Church on Sunday,and then it is all about us again.Do we actually do all that God wants us to do,and if not is faith there,for can we do some things,and ignore other things the Spirit wants us to do,and still have faith.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling(Philippians 2:12).

What do we do about this scripture,for it says work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,which if Jesus does it all for us what is there to work out,which sounds like we have a responsibility to ensure our salvation,although God gets the glory for only by the Spirit can we accomplish this,but we have to allow the Spirit to lead us,which some deny the Spirit that claim Christ,which the Bible says,they have a form of godliness,but deny the power thereof,forever learning and never able to come to the truth.

All people that are saved must continue in that salvation,which some after they have repented and allowed the Spirit to lead them,have went back to enjoying some of the things of the world that they used to enjoy,but still go to Church and claim Christ,so the Bible is telling us that we have a responsibilty in our salvation to keep ourself right by allowing the Spirit to lead us,because God will not twist our arm to live for Him.

Jesus does it all for us,but we still have to confess Christ as savior,repent of our sins,and allow the Spirit to lead us,so we have a responsibility in our salvation,although God gets the glory because we are led by His Spirit,but we have to allow the Spirit to lead us,for God will not force us to live for Him after we are saved.

So how do we not have any works on our part for we have to confess Christ,repent of our sins,and allow the Spirit to lead us,all things that God is not going to force us to do,and all things Christ cannot do for us and work in us,unless we make these decisions ourself,although God gets the glory for no man can come to the Father unless the Father draws them,but we have to make these decisions for ourself,which some have not did that to God's satisfaction,for many are called but few are chosen,so it obvious that everybody that God calls do not make the grade to be chosen.

I think people take things too far,too exteme,like when the Bible says we are saved by grace they take it to mean totally by grace,take it to the extreme,and we do nothing,and do not realize that there are certain conditions to have that grace applied in their life.

Or Jesus does it all for us,but we have to confess Christ,repent of our sins,and allow the Spirit to lead us,before Christ can work in us to do His will,and to be saved,and we have to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling,by allowing ourself to stay in that condition without going back to worldly things we used to enjoy,and that is where the fear and trembling come in,for the Bible says if you have the knowledge of sin,that it is bad in the sight of God,and you do it anyway,then there is a certain looking for judgment.
 

Billyd

Senior Member
May 8, 2014
5,048
1,490
113
#17
VW please address the verses of those opposing you or this thread will become as all others on the subject, a waste of your time.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#18
VW please address the verses of those opposing you or this thread will become as all others on the subject, a waste of your time.
VW has a new job that, I suspect, has different hours. Between the two conditions, it's good to give him time to come back. Sometimes it's not immediately. Unlike me, he has patience. lol
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
113
#19
What is Grace?

Those who think they are opposing what VW has shared...

Is Grace just a small "boost" so we can make it the rest of the way to heaven ourselves?

Is that what 'working out our salvation with fear and trembling' means? Work for salvation?


The whip is a carnal tool used for the ones who are still in their carnal state. Getting an animal to understand what they are to do, where they are to go, behaviour wise.

Grace is an entirely different tool used for those who are redeemed from this carnal state.

In my opinion the whip works best... But it doesn't change hearts and minds. It tends to harden them. Grace changes hearts and minds so that the whip is unnecessary.

Even those who understand and love Gods Grace need to continue to study and be reminded of this awesome Gift. Truly not our way or our understanding. Much higher...
 
Aug 10, 2015
52
0
0
#20
I think works gets confused here at CC. It seems yall are saying believe and that's it. I believe it requires a radical lifestyle change and that takes work