Our Salvation

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Patnubay

Patnubay

Senior Member
#1
May 27, 2014
498
8
18
#1
John 3:16-17New King James Version (NKJV)

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Luke 22:42New King James Version (NKJV)

42 saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”


John 10:27-33New King James Version (NKJV)

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.30 I and My Father are one.”

The POINTS to Ponder:

1. Jesus was sent by the Father to save us (John 3:16-17)
2. Jesus said, we are His sheep. He will give us eternal life ( John 10:27-28)
3. Jesus and the Father are one ( John 10: 30 )

The Perplexity :

When Jesus said: “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”

Did He mean:

There was another way to our salvation that did not require His death?

 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#2
Nov 24, 2012
30,706
3,650
113
#2
He kept repeating, "Abba! Father! All things are possible for you. Take this cup away from me. Yet not what I want but what you want."
(Mar 14:36)


Seems like two choices...

Jesus drinks the cup, dies and we live.

OR

Jesus does not drink and lives but we die.
 
P

psychomom

Guest
#3
#3
another way for our salvation from 'the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world' ? (Rev 13:5)

i'm thankful the Lord Jesus accomplished all His Father's will.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#4
Jul 3, 2015
55,819
25,996
113
#4
I cannot imagine any man willingly wanting to endure the type of agony and suffering He knew he was facing, and not only the physical pain, but think of it: the Spiritual pain of separation from God when the sin of the world would fall on Him.
 
seed_time_harvest

seed_time_harvest

Senior Member
#5
Dec 9, 2011
13,715
1,723
113
#5
Patnubay said:
John 3:16-17New King James Version (NKJV)

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Luke 22:42New King James Version (NKJV)

42 saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”


John 10:27-33New King James Version (NKJV)

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.30 I and My Father are one.”

The POINTS to Ponder:

1. Jesus was sent by the Father to save us (John 3:16-17)
2. Jesus said, we are His sheep. He will give us eternal life ( John 10:27-28)
3. Jesus and the Father are one ( John 10: 30 )

The Perplexity :

When Jesus said: “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”

Did He mean:

There was another way to our salvation that did not require His death?
Click to expand...
JESUS was 100% man and 100% GOD and I think the man part like any one else would not want to die but he knew why he was here and the only way for man to be able to have a relationship with GOD was to fulfill the law perfectly. So then....John 3:16.
 
Last edited:
Dan58

Dan58

Senior Member
#6
Nov 13, 2013
1,991
338
83
#6
Patnubay said:

The Perplexity :

When Jesus said: “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”

Did He mean:

There was another way to our salvation that did not require His death?
Click to expand...
I personally don't believe that Jesus was asking the Father to deliver him from the cross, he knew very well that this was his fate; "Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour" (John 12:27). Jesus knew his purpose (Mark 9:31, 10:33-34).

I don't believe the cup Jesus was referring to was the cross, but to what the cross implied, which was that after his sacrifice, there would be no more excuse, judgement would come. This was the cup he regretted, the cup of wrath which he would pour out in the end times; "Take from my hand this cup filled with the wine of my wrath and make all the nations to whom I send you drink it" (Jeremiah 25:15). It was the vials of wrath (Revelation 16:1) that Jesus wanted to avoid.

It is not God's will that any should perish, nor was it Jesus will (2 Peter 3:9). I believe Jesus was praying for those who would have to drink from the cup of wrath, which he would need to pour out; "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation" (Revelation 14:10). His own death was known and accepted, the cup he regretted was that which would fall onto those who rejected his sacrifice. This was the bitter cup Jesus dreaded, the unrepentant would perish, there would be no other way.. jmo





 
passing_through

passing_through

Banned
#7
Feb 1, 2015
1,198
15
0
#7
Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of blood and Jesus knew that. What the father said do it was in Jesus heart to do.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#8
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
113
#8
Patnubay said:
The Perplexity :

When Jesus said: “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”

Did He mean:

There was another way to our salvation that did not require His death?
Click to expand...
Take this cup from me.

This is the Lord Jesus showing His human side. Every living thing wants to stay alive. It is against instinct and reasoning to willingly walk into your killers hands.

It was inner turmoil. He knew what was ahead. He was willing to do Gods Will no matter what.

Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do.
 
passing_through

passing_through

Banned
#9
Feb 1, 2015
1,198
15
0
#9
Grandpa said:
Take this cup from me.

This is the Lord Jesus showing His human side. Every living thing wants to stay alive. It is against instinct and reasoning to willingly walk into your killers hands.

It was inner turmoil. He knew what was ahead. He was willing to do Gods Will no matter what.

Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do.
Click to expand...
My understanding is it wasn't the cup of pain and suffering that he ask to be removed, but the eternal connection and fellowship with the father.
 
seed_time_harvest

seed_time_harvest

Senior Member
#10
Dec 9, 2011
13,715
1,723
113
#10
Maybe being GOD he didn't want to take all that sin,that might be worse to GOD than taking the stripes.
 
M

mpaper345

Banned
#11
Feb 9, 2010
2,486
39
0
#11
[SUP]39 [/SUP]And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
[SUP]41 [/SUP]Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak(Matthew 26:39-41).

The answer is in this last verse,the spirit is willing,but the flesh is weak.

Jesus is God manifest in flesh,which He is fully God as far as the fulness of the attributes of God,for all of God's Spirit will not fit in to a human body,and fully man,which the Bible says that God reconciled mankind back to Himself by Jesus Christ,fully God and fully man in harmony.

At the garden it was Jesus' human side that asked the Father if it were possible can the cup pass from Him,for He knew the cross would be terrible,but if the cup could not pass from Him,Jesus was going to do the will of the Father and so what if the flesh was scared.The Bible said that Jesus when He was praying that he sweated as it were drops of blood,so it was a stressful situation for Him according to the flesh,but it did not matter for He always did the Father's will.

I do not think that Jesus was trying to get out of people having salvation,especially when as a person He would have great love for people,always being led of the Spirit,which the Bible says there is no greater love than a person lay down their life for their friends,but I think that His human side was saying,Father,if there is any other way that mankind can have salvation other than Me giving My human body,can it be done,but if it cannot be done I will do your will and go to the cross,for I want people to be saved,and will endure the suffering for they are more important than My suffering.

There was no other way for people to have salvation other than Jesus giving us His human body.

The thing is Jesus before the garden knew that the cross was the only way for people to have salvation,which is what the last supper is about,drink of the wine representing His blood,and eat the bread representing His body,but the spirit is willing,but the flesh is weak,and even though He knew the cross was the only way,and knew He had to do it with no way out,He still asked if the cup could pass from Him,but nevertheless He was going to do the will of the Father because he wanted people to be saved so much that He would of endured even greater suffering than what He did endure.

Jesus would of endured 10 times the suffering to save mankind if that's what it took.
 
Patnubay

Patnubay

Senior Member
#12
May 27, 2014
498
8
18
#12
crossnote said:
Jesus does not drink and lives but we die.
Click to expand...
The above was never an option. "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand"
 
Patnubay

Patnubay

Senior Member
#13
May 27, 2014
498
8
18
#13
Magenta said:
I cannot imagine any man willingly wanting to endure the type of agony and suffering He knew he was facing, and not only the physical pain, but think of it: the Spiritual pain of separation from God when the sin of the world would fall on Him.
Click to expand...

Exactly !!!!!! ...... We were justified thru the redemption did by our Lord Jesus Christ...., "whom God set forth as a PROPITIATION by His blood, through faith, to His righteousness, because in His FORBEARANCE God had PASSED OVER THE SINS that were previously committed.

Our Salvation wasn't just the sacrifice of the Son ( physical torment and death ). It was also a sacrifice of the Father. ( Mental and emotional pain ) Christ's death was made the propitiation to show righteousness. And this was not made to appease Himself but rather bring pain to Himself( Father) to impose His own justice. Hence, I believe, there was a choice and Jesus in His moment of extreme agony tried to access it.
 
Patnubay

Patnubay

Senior Member
#14
May 27, 2014
498
8
18
#14
seed_time_harvest said:
JESUS was 100% man and 100% GOD and I think the man part like any one else would not want to die but he knew why he was here and the only way for man to be able to have a relationship with GOD was to fulfill the law perfectly. So then....John 3:16.
Click to expand...
Jesus would never think of letting us die for our sins to save His life. His being 100 % man is NOT the reason He asked God the Father to take the cup away from Him.
 
Patnubay

Patnubay

Senior Member
#15
May 27, 2014
498
8
18
#15
Dan58 said:
I personally don't believe that Jesus was asking the Father to deliver him from the cross, he knew very well that this was his fate; "Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour" (John 12:27). Jesus knew his purpose (Mark 9:31, 10:33-34).

I don't believe the cup Jesus was referring to was the cross, but to what the cross implied, which was that after his sacrifice, there would be no more excuse, judgement would come. This was the cup he regretted, the cup of wrath which he would pour out in the end times; "Take from my hand this cup filled with the wine of my wrath and make all the nations to whom I send you drink it" (Jeremiah 25:15). It was the vials of wrath (Revelation 16:1) that Jesus wanted to avoid.

It is not God's will that any should perish, nor was it Jesus will (2 Peter 3:9). I believe Jesus was praying for those who would have to drink from the cup of wrath, which he would need to pour out; "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation" (Revelation 14:10). His own death was known and accepted, the cup he regretted was that which would fall onto those who rejected his sacrifice. This was the bitter cup Jesus dreaded, the unrepentant would perish, there would be no other way.. jmo
Click to expand...

Intriguing point. I would love to research this further.
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#16
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#16
Isaiah 53:10 ¶ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Verse eleven the travail of His soul and shall be satisfied.

It all was necessary for our atonement and subsequent redemption.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Patnubay

Patnubay

Senior Member
#17
May 27, 2014
498
8
18
#17
Grandpa said:
Take this cup from me.

This is the Lord Jesus showing His human side. Every living thing wants to stay alive. It is against instinct and reasoning to willingly walk into your killers hands.

It was inner turmoil. He knew what was ahead. He was willing to do Gods Will no matter what.

Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do.
Click to expand...
John 10:27-33New King James Version (NKJV)

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.


Jesus, being man or God will NEVER let anybody snatch us from Him, may it be thru pain or death on the cross. Remember this, friend.
 
Patnubay

Patnubay

Senior Member
#19
May 27, 2014
498
8
18
#19
mpaper345 said:
[SUP]39 [/SUP]And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
[SUP]41 [/SUP]Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak(Matthew 26:39-41).

The answer is in this last verse,the spirit is willing,but the flesh is weak.

Jesus is God manifest in flesh,which He is fully God as far as the fulness of the attributes of God,for all of God's Spirit will not fit in to a human body,and fully man,which the Bible says that God reconciled mankind back to Himself by Jesus Christ,fully God and fully man in harmony.

At the garden it was Jesus' human side that asked the Father if it were possible can the cup pass from Him,for He knew the cross would be terrible,but if the cup could not pass from Him,Jesus was going to do the will of the Father and so what if the flesh was scared.The Bible said that Jesus when He was praying that he sweated as it were drops of blood,so it was a stressful situation for Him according to the flesh,but it did not matter for He always did the Father's will.

I do not think that Jesus was trying to get out of people having salvation,especially when as a person He would have great love for people,always being led of the Spirit,which the Bible says there is no greater love than a person lay down their life for their friends,but I think that His human side was saying,Father,if there is any other way that mankind can have salvation other than Me giving My human body,can it be done,but if it cannot be done I will do your will and go to the cross,for I want people to be saved,and will endure the suffering for they are more important than My suffering.

There was no other way for people to have salvation other than Jesus giving us His human body.

The thing is Jesus before the garden knew that the cross was the only way for people to have salvation,which is what the last supper is about,drink of the wine representing His blood,and eat the bread representing His body,but the spirit is willing,but the flesh is weak,and even though He knew the cross was the only way,and knew He had to do it with no way out,He still asked if the cup could pass from Him,but nevertheless He was going to do the will of the Father because he wanted people to be saved so much that He would of endured even greater suffering than what He did endure.

Jesus would of endured 10 times the suffering to save mankind if that's what it took.
Click to expand...
Jesus lived for more than 30 years and never showed weakness. He never sinned. His flesh is not weak. He experienced pain but His mind was always focused to the Father.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.