Muddy Waters? (No, not the Blues Guy)

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crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,704
3,650
113
#1
Disclaimer: Please Don't Read if Demon Possession Freaks You Out.

Let me say first off.
I'm not in the medical nor in the exorcism 'profession'.

Here's my fourfold question.

1. Have the demons ceased possessing people since NT times?
2. If not, where do we witness it today?
3. Is it likely many of those we medicate for schizophrenia etc., may be actually demon possessed?
4. If the gifts have ceased, does that mean there is no one to discern and exorcise a demon?

(This seems to be an area with a lot of muddy waters).
 
M

Myles536

Guest
#2
1. No, It doesnt say they stopped in the NT.
2. The earths population has grown to over 7 billion people, but yet the demons population doesnt grow at all, so it seems so much more rare.
3. Not Possessed by a demon, but certainly hearing them. Even extreme cases of schizophrenia i think are just demons trying to speak to that person, not a full possession.
4. All you need to do most times to exorcise a demon is praise the lord, Believe me there is power in the name of Jesus Christ. The bible is your best weapon against this type of situation.
Careful tho that you dont become a little too comfortable with this stuff, dont let your guard down and try not to be in this stuff very much. This is another reason why its so important to read your bible on a daily basis.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,672
13,364
113
#3
No;
in the world and in the church;
yes, it's possible, but this is a complex area; and
irrelevant, because the gifts have not ceased.

Not every ailment is a demon at work. There are real diseases which are essentially biological in nature, but we tend to take a bit of a Gnostic view of the person in that we treat the body separately from the spirit. They are connected, though we have a poor understanding of just how.

Discernment is listed as a spiritual gift, but one may "discern" without a special gift, simply by careful observation and practice. If a person with a mental/emotional disorder doesn't respond to chemical treatment or therapy, but they react to prayer or worship, it's pretty clear that they are demonized. There may be other issues at work though.

Note that I use the term 'demonized' and not 'possessed'. It doesn't excite the passions of certain believers quite as much!

I know others who have experienced demonic entities visually and physically, and have dealt with them similarly to how Jesus or Paul did in the Bible. It doesn't take a special gift to deal with them; all true believers are equipped by the blood of Christ and Scripture. However, as your thread title notes, many are afraid to do so.
 
Feb 21, 2012
3,794
199
63
#4
Disclaimer: Please Don't Read if Demon Possession Freaks You Out.

Let me say first off.
I'm not in the medical nor in the exorcism 'profession'.

Here's my fourfold question.

1. Have the demons ceased possessing people since NT times?
2. If not, where do we witness it today?
3. Is it likely many of those we medicate for schizophrenia etc., may be actually demon possessed?
4. If the gifts have ceased, does that mean there is no one to discern and exorcise a demon?

(This seems to be an area with a lot of muddy waters).
1. No
2. Sometimes in the homeless, mental institutions, etc. . . .
3. Yes . . . everything was perfect in the garden . . not until man fell did illness affect mankind . . are we sick because we are demonized or because we sin? . . NOPE . . but as a result of living in a fallen world.

Matthew 12:22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw

[SUP]4. Every believer has the manifestation of discerning spirits and the ability to cast them out in and through the name of Jesus Christ. I haven't ever actually run into someone whom I thought was demonized.
[/SUP][SUP]
In the following - we need to make sure that we build a solid foundation of Christ with someone in order to fill the "empty, swept and garnished" area so that "it" cannot return with "seven more".

Matthew 12:43,44 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. Then he saith, I will return unto my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. . . . . . . [/SUP]

 

Patnubay

Senior Member
May 27, 2014
498
8
18
#5
Disclaimer: Please Don't Read if Demon Possession Freaks You Out.

Let me say first off.
I'm not in the medical nor in the exorcism 'profession'.

Here's my fourfold question.

1. Have the demons ceased possessing people since NT times?
2. If not, where do we witness it today?
3. Is it likely many of those we medicate for schizophrenia etc., may be actually demon possessed?
4. If the gifts have ceased, does that mean there is no one to discern and exorcise a demon?

(This seems to be an area with a lot of muddy waters).

1. No, because we see pedophiles all over the place

2. In America, I see them all over public toilet bulletin boards and malls' announcement board. "Kids missing"

3. Schizophrenia is medically proven illness , pedophilia isn't. Medical profession is not capable of diagnosing possession.

4. Men have developed a very advanced sophisticated talent in creating evil that it has become almost impossible to discern which evil is caused by possession or free will.
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
4,940
588
113
#6
Disclaimer: Please Don't Read if Demon Possession Freaks You Out.

Let me say first off.
I'm not in the medical nor in the exorcism 'profession'.

Here's my fourfold question.

1. Have the demons ceased possessing people since NT times?
2. If not, where do we witness it today?
3. Is it likely many of those we medicate for schizophrenia etc., may be actually demon possessed?
4. If the gifts have ceased, does that mean there is no one to discern and exorcise a demon?

(This seems to be an area with a lot of muddy waters).
Good day sir, you can find a short study Here that you should find helpful...

Yahweh Shalom

PS: I do love the music of Muddy Waters!
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,704
3,650
113
#7
Good day sir, you can find a short study that you should find helpful...

Yahweh Shalom

PS: I do love the music of Muddy Waters!
can you sum up the article by incorporating the 4 questions listed in the OP?
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#8
Disclaimer: Please Don't Read if Demon Possession Freaks You Out.

Let me say first off.
I'm not in the medical nor in the exorcism 'profession'.

Here's my fourfold question.

1. Have the demons ceased possessing people since NT times?
2. If not, where do we witness it today?
3. Is it likely many of those we medicate for schizophrenia etc., may be actually demon possessed?
4. If the gifts have ceased, does that mean there is no one to discern and exorcise a demon?

(This seems to be an area with a lot of muddy waters).
A. Bummer! I really like "the blues guy." lol

B. Demons vs. schizophrenia is squishing something into too small a package. There really are demons. They really are active. It's not just schizophrenics they're active in and it's not always the cause for the schizophrenia. You're stuck back in 19th century thinking.

Let's bring it up to the 21st century. What do you think of the epidemic of ADHD sweeping the country? Is that demonic? Did something just happen where some cause made all those people suddenly not like your average person? What changed?

Two things changed for that:
1. "Discipline" became a naughty word.
2. Diagnosing became more accurate.

Hubby has ADHD. He's had it all his life, but he was disciplined as a child, (in such a horrible way there is a good chance that caused it. He really did have such a bad life growing up, he makes Sybil look like she grew up in paradise.) But schools did teach him methods that helped him learn how to focus too, and as an adult he could focus well enough that he learned new methods that work for him and some that don't. And he also learned when he needed to control it and when he didn't. (Not good to go off on a tangent in church. Fine in Bible study alone. He would spend four hours a night studying God's word, because he got hooked on one word, started learning about that word, but another word came up, so he went off on that word. After a full night of studying he learned five different words, but never got back to what he was studying. So next night he started where he left off and do the same thing. Good way to learn the Word if you're ADHD. lol)

But parents don't discipline their kids now, so they don't learn to control themselves and so many more ADHD's develop.

BUT in like kind, when hubby was young there was no ADHD. Well, of course there was, it's just no one thought about it enough to think it was really something. Back then it was always, "discipline your child better." A horrible feeling to want to learn but can't concentrate that well.

Likewise schizophrenia is both a real thing -- a physiological disorder of the brain that causes synapses to fire off that shouldn't or demons taking over the brain. If the medical community wouldn't dismiss the latter, it would be easy to diagnose the difference.

That makes it hard to tell. But it's not just them. Hubby's first wife was both bipolar and possessed. She was a new believer, and in the beginning of the Jesus Movement, so she was also one of the first to be delivered of demons for quite some time in that little church. (Poor AG church. They had no idea what they were getting themselves into. lol) Hubby saw it happen. Somewhere between empathy and disgust filled him, as he saw what happened to her when she was delivered, but she was delivered. AND she still had bipolar going on. (Back then it was called maniac-depressive disorder.)

And, she believed in God, but had this self-centered streak that won out, leaving the demons a place to call home again, so they were Legend. And then she tried killing him -- often. He's huge. She's petite, so he could get the knife out of her hands when she charged, but it's not like seeing someone running at you with a knife and seeing the look in her eyes to know the intent doesn't scare him. It was the morning when he woke up with her leaning over him with a razor blade (single edge like was put into razors in the 60's) necklace twirling in her hand, and she said, "Isn't it good I didn't slit your throat when you were asleep" with a smile that made him ask her to get delivered again. She wouldn't, so he was the one telling the orderlies she would try to kill them too or kill herself.

They saw a quiet, happy little woman in their wheelchair. He pulled that necklace hidden under her blouse off and then forced her hand open spilling the pills in it. THEN they took him seriously.

That wasn't schizophrenia. It's not always mental illness, but the two go hand in hand. It looks like it's mental illness. And then sometimes it is mental illness minus demons.

To me it's kind of like knowing that 10% of people with chronic depression (the type that has no cause, yet is still felt), are curable if they'd take vitamin B12 every day. That cures about 10% of people with chronic depression. In like kind, it isn't always demons causing psychological problems in people, but it does no harm to find out if that's the person that is demonically possessed.

I wonder if some don't have the ability to discern all the time. I can, some of the time. So can hubby.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#9
2. The earths population has grown to over 7 billion people, but yet the demons population doesnt grow at all, so it seems so much more rare.
Mark 5:9 refutes you. If there were many just in one person, what makes you think there aren't still many?

3. Not Possessed by a demon, but certainly hearing them. Even extreme cases of schizophrenia i think are just demons trying to speak to that person, not a full possession.
What's this based on? Looks like nothing but what you think.

4. All you need to do most times to exorcise a demon is praise the lord, Believe me there is power in the name of Jesus Christ. The bible is your best weapon against this type of situation.
Funny. Jesus didn't just praise God to remove them. What is this based on?

Careful tho that you dont become a little too comfortable with this stuff, dont let your guard down and try not to be in this stuff very much. This is another reason why its so important to read your bible on a daily basis.
True enough. Might want to take your own advice. You're way too comfortable 17. (Too comfortable if you were twice that age.)
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,704
3,650
113
#10
I was only using schizophrenia as an example of many psychological disorders.
1800s? I just see a number of cases that I would suspect as demon possession get immediately diagnosed as some sort of psychological/medical problem that it leaves me thinking that the demons must have gone on vacation...unless they disguise their possession as a physical malfunction since that is as far as the medical field can go.
 
Feb 21, 2012
3,794
199
63
#11
A. Bummer! I really like "the blues guy." lol

B. Demons vs. schizophrenia is squishing something into too small a package. There really are demons. They really are active. It's not just schizophrenics they're active in and it's not always the cause for the schizophrenia. You're stuck back in 19th century thinking.

Let's bring it up to the 21st century. What do you think of the epidemic of ADHD sweeping the country? Is that demonic? Did something just happen where some cause made all those people suddenly not like your average person? What changed?

Two things changed for that:
1. "Discipline" became a naughty word.
2. Diagnosing became more accurate.

Hubby has ADHD. He's had it all his life, but he was disciplined as a child, (in such a horrible way there is a good chance that caused it. He really did have such a bad life growing up, he makes Sybil look like she grew up in paradise.) But schools did teach him methods that helped him learn how to focus too, and as an adult he could focus well enough that he learned new methods that work for him and some that don't. And he also learned when he needed to control it and when he didn't. (Not good to go off on a tangent in church. Fine in Bible study alone. He would spend four hours a night studying God's word, because he got hooked on one word, started learning about that word, but another word came up, so he went off on that word. After a full night of studying he learned five different words, but never got back to what he was studying. So next night he started where he left off and do the same thing. Good way to learn the Word if you're ADHD. lol)

But parents don't discipline their kids now, so they don't learn to control themselves and so many more ADHD's develop.

BUT in like kind, when hubby was young there was no ADHD. Well, of course there was, it's just no one thought about it enough to think it was really something. Back then it was always, "discipline your child better." A horrible feeling to want to learn but can't concentrate that well.

Likewise schizophrenia is both a real thing -- a physiological disorder of the brain that causes synapses to fire off that shouldn't or demons taking over the brain. If the medical community wouldn't dismiss the latter, it would be easy to diagnose the difference.

That makes it hard to tell. But it's not just them. Hubby's first wife was both bipolar and possessed. She was a new believer, and in the beginning of the Jesus Movement, so she was also one of the first to be delivered of demons for quite some time in that little church. (Poor AG church. They had no idea what they were getting themselves into. lol) Hubby saw it happen. Somewhere between empathy and disgust filled him, as he saw what happened to her when she was delivered, but she was delivered. AND she still had bipolar going on. (Back then it was called maniac-depressive disorder.)

And, she believed in God, but had this self-centered streak that won out, leaving the demons a place to call home again, so they were Legend. And then she tried killing him -- often. He's huge. She's petite, so he could get the knife out of her hands when she charged, but it's not like seeing someone running at you with a knife and seeing the look in her eyes to know the intent doesn't scare him. It was the morning when he woke up with her leaning over him with a razor blade (single edge like was put into razors in the 60's) necklace twirling in her hand, and she said, "Isn't it good I didn't slit your throat when you were asleep" with a smile that made him ask her to get delivered again. She wouldn't, so he was the one telling the orderlies she would try to kill them too or kill herself.

They saw a quiet, happy little woman in their wheelchair. He pulled that necklace hidden under her blouse off and then forced her hand open spilling the pills in it. THEN they took him seriously.

That wasn't schizophrenia. It's not always mental illness, but the two go hand in hand. It looks like it's mental illness. And then sometimes it is mental illness minus demons.

To me it's kind of like knowing that 10% of people with chronic depression (the type that has no cause, yet is still felt), are curable if they'd take vitamin B12 every day. That cures about 10% of people with chronic depression. In like kind, it isn't always demons causing psychological problems in people, but it does no harm to find out if that's the person that is demonically possessed.

I wonder if some don't have the ability to discern all the time. I can, some of the time. So can hubby.
I sometimes wonder if "labels" later assigned to things have cancelled out our dealing with the "spiritual" aspects of said labels . . . .
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#12
Disclaimer: Please Don't Read if Demon Possession Freaks You Out.

Let me say first off.
I'm not in the medical nor in the exorcism 'profession'.

Here's my fourfold question.

1. Have the demons ceased possessing people since NT times?
2. If not, where do we witness it today?
3. Is it likely many of those we medicate for schizophrenia etc., may be actually demon possessed?
4. If the gifts have ceased, does that mean there is no one to discern and exorcise a demon?

(This seems to be an area with a lot of muddy waters).
1. Hardly likely. I wish it were so but until the redemption of creation and the casting into the lake of fire the demons will be with us in this world.

2. Mass murders. Despotic leaders who commit genocide.

3. Sure and it's likely the case.

4. Only three sign gifts have ceased so the question is irrelevant. Only those who are mature in the Lord and well saturated in Gods word should consider the endeavor you suggest. You don't want to end up like the sons of Sceva.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
P

PeacefulWarrior

Guest
#13
On a less-serious note -- I think our cat is possessed.

Carry on! :)
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#15
On a less-serious note -- I think our cat is possessed.

Carry on! :)
You might have a devil cat. Very common breed. Either that or it's just a plain crazy cat. Hard to tell the difference and there is little to be gained from the endeavor.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
P

PeacefulWarrior

Guest
#16
You might have a devil cat. Very common breed. Either that or it's just a plain crazy cat. Hard to tell the difference and there is little to be gained from the endeavor.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
HaHA! Love you Roger. And I like that cat avatar! (is that one-eye open cat... like "whaddya want? / leave me be")
 
Dec 1, 2014
9,701
251
0
#17
I wouldn't be surprised if my dad is possessed. His demonic cuss words would embarrass Linda Blair.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,013
1,019
113
New Zealand
#18
I remember in the Case for Faith.. Lee Strobel briefly addressed the demon possession thing with a christian psychologist.
The psychologist was saying that almost all the time, the treatment of therapy sessions and the right type of medications will see a gradual improvement and sometimes complete recovery in a client.

Then there is a small percentage of cases where nothing is working. Therapy sessions doing nadda.. medication doing nadda etc..

The psychologist said in these cases he is sometimes convinced evil forces are at work.

The thing though, being that it is a last resort conclusion. Not something you would come to lightly or straight away. Come to the conclusion it is evil early and you might put the client through something that could have been alleviated by just psychological and/or medical treatment.

But I did find it really interesting that a highly qualified, reputable, experienced psychologist would allow for the existence of evil forces in someone.

They are christian though :)
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,704
3,650
113
#19
I remember in the Case for Faith.. Lee Strobel briefly addressed the demon possession thing with a christian psychologist.
The psychologist was saying that almost all the time, the treatment of therapy sessions and the right type of medications will see a gradual improvement and sometimes complete recovery in a client.
9
Then there is a small percentage of cases where nothing is working. Therapy sessions doing nadda.. medication doing nadda etc..

The psychologist said in these cases he is sometimes convinced evil forces are at work.

The thing though, being that it is a last resort conclusion. Not something you would come to lightly or straight away. Come to the conclusion it is evil early and you might put the client through something that could have been alleviated by just psychological and/or medical treatment.

But I did find it really interesting that a highly qualified, reputable, experienced psychologist would allow for the existence of evil forces in someone.

They are christian though :)
Perhaps if the prayer method (euphemism alert) was used first we would (in some cases )have less medicated people living the rest of their lives dependent on prescriptions?
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,013
1,019
113
New Zealand
#20
Perhaps if the prayer method (euphemism alert) was used first we would (in some cases )have less medicated people living the rest of their lives dependent on prescriptions?
Yeah.. I mean, the best way would surely be to going to the scripture for guidance with the client straight away. No meds.. no need for any humanistic type teaching.

But I guess what I am saying is people go to the 'this person has a demon!' conclusion too quickly. When they may actually be a saved person.. and therefore not actually possibly having a demon in them at all.. or their mental struggles/illness could just be the result of a hard life and not spiritual oppression from evil.