The Biblical significance of roads

[LT]

My thoughts are scattered, but what remains is a feeling of "significance" that only my soul comprehends, but not yet my mind.

Saul was on a road, en route to Damascus, when a light came upon him and his destiny/destination was forever changed.
The Lord led Saul (who would become Paul) to a street called Straight.
The Lord told Ananais to meet Saul on this Straight street.
Saul would soon find himself in the company of a group calling themselves The Way.

Jesus preached of this "Way", saying "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father, but by me."
He also called this Way the "straight and narrow"... (now significant to Saul's meeting with Ananias on Straight Street).

Peter addresses the Church as "pilgrims" several times in his letters.

-------
There is something about roads and destiny and destination,
and specifically "change" along the way,
that has instilled an awe within me.

I am contemplating the spiritual significance that the ancients gave to "crossroads", and even contemplating the natural roads etched within Creation itself. The ways of subatomic particles on their paths around the nucleus, and the paths of the heavens in orbits and dance.

I am not sure the significance of these thoughts,
but something about this topic is making me question my previous disbelief in the idea of "freewill".
Rather than thinking of these paths as constant and predictable patterns, maybe they are actually conduits of change!
I don't know what I'm really thinking about...
Perhaps someone has thought of such things before, and can add some understanding to my ramblings.

 

[crossnote]

The first thing that came to mind when I saw the title was that it truly was significant that Rome had built a pretty extensive system of roads and God had used those for the further dissemination of the Gospel in those days.

 

[Angela53510]

I always refer to my walk with Christ as a "journey." We need a road to journey on, especially in the Greek. Odos in Greek means, "way, road, journey."

I even had a vision the second year I was a Christian about how we were all all on the broad road that leads to destruction. When we repent, or turn around, we are facing Jesus on the narrow way!

I think the road is a very important metaphor in the Bible, which can have a lot of meaning when we remember to fix our eyes on Jesus, and walk towards him.

 

[LT]

The emotion of these thoughts has passed from me.
Even while writing the OP, I could feel the inspiration,
so strong just moments before,
slipping away.

Like waking up from a dream, and wondering why (some object from the dream) is not still in your hand,
I just cannot remember what it was about this thought of "roads" which moved me so.

On an intellectual level, I value the responses given.
I just wish I could have held onto that moment of inspiration a bit longer. It felt wonderful.
Now, all that is left is a memory of a feeling,
and all that "significance" that I felt
has faded.
It's rather disappointing, really.

I wonder if heaven will be like that feeling,
but never-ending,
and obviously much more intense than this realm can offer.

 

[thebesttrees]

My thoughts are scattered, but what remains is a feeling of "significance" that only my soul comprehends, but not yet my mind.

Saul was on a road, en route to Damascus, when a light came upon him and his destiny/destination was forever changed.
The Lord led Saul (who would become Paul) to a street called Straight.
The Lord told Ananais to meet Saul on this Straight street.
Saul would soon find himself in the company of a group calling themselves The Way.

Jesus preached of this "Way", saying "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father, but by me."
He also called this Way the "straight and narrow"... (now significant to Saul's meeting with Ananias on Straight Street).

Peter addresses the Church as "pilgrims" several times in his letters.

-------
There is something about roads and destiny and destination,
and specifically "change" along the way,
that has instilled an awe within me.

I am contemplating the spiritual significance that the ancients gave to "crossroads", and even contemplating the natural roads etched within Creation itself. The ways of subatomic particles on their paths around the nucleus, and the paths of the heavens in orbits and dance.

I am not sure the significance of these thoughts,
but something about this topic is making me question my previous disbelief in the idea of "freewill".
Rather than thinking of these paths as constant and predictable patterns, maybe they are actually conduits of change!
I don't know what I'm really thinking about...
Perhaps someone has thought of such things before, and can add some understanding to my ramblings.

You may want to consider these prophetic words as an aid in your understanding. (The Bible has its own dictionary which sometimes is quite different from the dictionaries of men. The fulfillment of the prophecy of Joel in Acts 2 is one of many such instances where certain words and phrases are defined.) Fulfillment of prophecies as recorded in the Bible has been a sure way for me to find word definitions and develop my Bible-based dictionary.

Luke 3:4-6,

4as it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet,
“THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS,
‘MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD,
MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT. 5‘EVERY RAVINE WILL BE FILLED,
AND EVERY MOUNTAIN AND HILL WILL BE BROUGHT LOW;
THE CROOKED WILL BECOME STRAIGHT,
AND THE ROUGH ROADS SMOOTH;

6AND ALL FLESH WILL SEE THE SALVATION OF GOD.’”

The Jewish people are still waiting for the prophecy above to be fulfilled and they missed their chance to believe in their Lord. The Lord, they say, is surely capable of changing the topography in fulfillment of the prophecy. Was He capable? Yes, of course. Did He do it? No, per fulfillment. Why didn't He do it? To prove the hearts.

 

[LT]

You may want to consider these prophetic words as an aid in your understanding. (The Bible has its own dictionary which sometimes is quite different from the dictionaries of men. The fulfillment of the prophecy of Joel in Acts 2 is one of many such instances where certain words and phrases are defined.) Fulfillment of prophecies as recorded in the Bible has been a sure way for me to find word definitions and develop my Bible-based dictionary.

Luke 3:4-6,

4as it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet,
“THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS,
‘MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD,
MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT. 5‘EVERY RAVINE WILL BE FILLED,
AND EVERY MOUNTAIN AND HILL WILL BE BROUGHT LOW;
THE CROOKED WILL BECOME STRAIGHT,
AND THE ROUGH ROADS SMOOTH;

6AND ALL FLESH WILL SEE THE SALVATION OF GOD.’”

The Jewish people are still waiting for the prophecy above to be fulfilled and they missed their chance to believe in their Lord. The Lord, they say, is surely capable of changing the topography in fulfillment of the prophecy. Was He capable? Yes, of course. Did He do it? No, per fulfillment. Why didn't He do it? To prove the hearts.

Very excellent verse reference!
However, I'm not sure I can agree with your concluding point, about the "Jewish people" and fulfillment.
but that is an eschatological divide over biases.
At the heart of the issue, we certainly agree:
in and upon Christ.

 

[robinriley]

Very excellent verse reference!
However, I'm not sure I can agree with your concluding point, about the "Jewish people" and fulfillment.
but that is an eschatological divide over biases.
At the heart of the issue, we certainly agree:
in and upon Christ.

(Robin)
An "eschatological divide" ... a very kind and thoughtful way of gently pointing out a doctrinal difference;
do you, by any chance, note any difference between the body of Christ, and of the bride of the lambkin?
I'm not, normally, very fond of discussing doctrinal issues, but up to this point, it's been almost impossible
to find anyone with a yen for discussing particular scriptural words, and how they fit within a verse ... so,
because of your gentle way of pointing out differences in understanding about how scriptures apply ... well,
you dont strike me as some doctrinal stormtrooper, so it felt safe enough to query you about this ...?

 

[thebesttrees]

Very excellent verse reference!
However, I'm not sure I can agree with your concluding point, about the "Jewish people" and fulfillment.
but that is an eschatological divide over biases.
At the heart of the issue, we certainly agree:
in and upon Christ.

Setting aside, "eschatological divide" and in light of the above fulfillment which has already happened, how do you see the mountains and the valleys in this prophecy in Zechariah 14 SOLELY based on the fulfillment above:

4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

 

[LT]

Setting aside, "eschatological divide" and in light of the above fulfillment which has already happened, how do you see the mountains and the valleys in this prophecy in Zechariah 14 SOLELY based on the fulfillment above:

4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

In this, I'm sure we both agree that it is the 2nd Coming, and seems to be very literal. No spiritual interpretation is given for it within Scripture, so the physical/literal is what we have.

As for Isaiah 40, by the interpretation given in Luke 3, it may not be as literal... or at least, it has dual meaning, involving the spiritual AND the physical. The spiritual regarding the Coming of Christ in ministry, and the physical regarding the Coming of Christ in final restoration. In this way, it is both fulfilled, and also yet to come.
In the next chapter, Jesus quotes Isaiah 61, but stops short in his quote, calling the first part "fulfilled".
It is for this, and many of the other times that the OT is quoted within the NT, that I do not hold to a strict literal rendering of the Prophets: because neither Christ nor the Apostles seemed to take literal interpretations of the texts.
When there is no spiritual interpretation given for the passage within Scripture itself, I lean to the literal... but with open heart.

 

[LT]

(Robin)
An "eschatological divide" ... a very kind and thoughtful way of gently pointing out a doctrinal difference;
do you, by any chance, note any difference between the body of Christ, and of the bride of the lambkin?
I'm not, normally, very fond of discussing doctrinal issues, but up to this point, it's been almost impossible
to find anyone with a yen for discussing particular scriptural words, and how they fit within a verse ... so,
because of your gentle way of pointing out differences in understanding about how scriptures apply ... well,
you dont strike me as some doctrinal stormtrooper, so it felt safe enough to query you about this ...?

I suppose I always considered them as two metaphors for the same entity: the Church.

Along with "the Branches" and "the Way", there are several other metaphors used for the NT Assembly.
So far, I have always viewed the Bride and the Body as one,
in line with the marriage ceremony saying that the two become one flesh.

 

[birdie]

Thanks for the question. Streets and roads and paths and ways are the Bible's way of saying walking in the gospel, in the Lord's way spiritually. "And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed."
and again, "The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight." This is just another example of how the Bible is speaking in parable words which are speaking of spiritual things with words that sound physical.
An interesting example is Rev 11:8: "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." The street of the great city means the street of Jerusalem, but not a physical Jerusalem on a map. Rather, the congregations. During the tribulation period, the way of the Lord, the spiritual street to walk in, is not known to the congregations, so the true believers are effectively dead to the members there, spiritually speaking. Their gospel is rejected there even as the Lord was rejected and crucified. The congregations (spirtual Jerusalem) could be said to have become spiritual Sodom or Egypt. The street in this scripture is not physical but a reference to the spiritual.

 

[Angela53510]

"Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding,
In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths." Prov. 3:5-6 (My own translation from the Hebrew)

Birdie's reference above reminded me of this important verse.

 

[thebesttrees]

You wrote and I quote,

As for Isaiah 40, by the interpretation given in Luke 3, it may not be as literal... or at least, it has dual meaning, involving the spiritual AND the physical. The spiritual regarding the Coming of Christ in ministry, and the physical regarding the Coming of Christ in final restoration. In this way, it is both fulfilled, and also yet to come.

Please limit yourself to Luke 3:4-6 when responding.

1. Which part of Luke 3:4-6 is to be taken physically?
2. Which part of Luke 3:4-6 is to be taken spiritually?
3. Please define some words based on Luke 3:4-6: Mountain, paths, crooked, eyes, see,wilderness, ravines, etc.

 

[robinriley]

I suppose I always considered them as two metaphors for the same entity: the Church.

Along with "the Branches" and "the Way", there are several other metaphors used for the NT Assembly.
So far, I have always viewed the Bride and the Body as one,
in line with the marriage ceremony saying that the two become one flesh.

(Robin)
Not to argue, but I'm sure that they are not the same ... our apostle Paul only talks to the body of Christ.

But, here's an interesting though, one that I came away with while doing my own translations: In verse 5:28 Paul makes the observation about a our "relationship" with Christ ...and in 5:29 he concludes, "according-as also, the Lord to the ecclesia"
but then in 5:30 he says something that you will only find in the Byzantine sourced readings,
"(out of the flesh of Same, and out of the bones of Same)"

And in the following verse, he makes a very interesting statement ..."instead of this [thing]"
Think about it ..."instead of this" ... instead of this thing, this, the following form of relationship ...
and then he quotes from the OT ... INSTEAD of this relationship ... instead of this marriage relationship?

Instead of the very close (toward-cleaved; one flesh) relationship ... instead of this, rather something even closer?
"out of the flesh of Same, and out of the bones of Same"That is, a bride to husband in sexual embrace is juat about one flesh, but what if "instead" a relationship of being
actually part of Christ, His compliment ... of the same flesh and bones ... the Body of Christ?




***

5:28* Οὕτως ὀφείλουσιν οἱ ἄνδρες ἀγαπᾷν τὰς ἑαυτῶν γυναῖκας ὡς τὰ ἑαυτῶν σώματα. Ὁ ἀγαπῶν τὴν ἑαυτοῦ γυναῖκα, ἑαυτὸν ἀγαπᾷ·

houtOs opheilousin hoi andres agapan tas heautOn gunaikas hOs ta heautOn sOmata ho agapOn tEn heautou gunaika heauton agapa

Thus the husbands to the wives of themselves they indebt to love, as to the bodies of themselves; the [husband] to the wife of himself loving, [as] himself he loves.
thus {3779 ADV} they indebt {3784 V-PAI-3P} the [ones] {3588 T-NPM} husbands {0435 N-NPM} to love {0025 V-PAN} to the [ones] {3588 T-APF} of themselves {1438 F-3GPM} to wives {1135 N-APF} as {5613 ADV} to the [things] {3588 T-APN} of themselves {1438 F-3GPM} to bodies {4983 N-APN} the [one] {3588 T-NSM} loving {0025 V-PAP-NSM} to the [one] {3588 T-ASF} of himself {1438 F-3GSM} to a wife {1135 N-ASF} to himself {1438 F-3ASM} he loves {0025 V-PAI-3S}


***
5:29* οὐδεὶς γάρ ποτε τὴν ἑαυτοῦ σάρκα ἐμίσησεν, ἀλλʼ ἐκτρέφει καὶ θάλπει αὐτήν, καθὼς καὶ ὁ κύριος τὴν ἐκκλησίαν·

oudeis gar pote tEn heautou sarka emisEsen all ektrephei kai thalpei autEn kathOs kai ho kurios tEn
ekklEsian

For not-yet-one when-once to the flesh of himself he had hated, but to same [flesh] he out-nourishes and he cherishes, according-as also, the Lord to the ecclesia,
not-yet-one [one] {3762 A-NSM-N} for {1063 CONJ} when-once {4218 PRT} to the [one] {3588 T-ASF} of himself {1438 F-3GSM} to a flesh {4561 N-ASF} he had hated {3404 V-AAI-3S} but {0235 CONJ} he out-nourishes {1625 V-PAI-3S} and {2532 CONJ} he cherishes {2282 V-PAI-3S} to a same [one] {0846 P-ASF} according-as {2531 ADV} also {2532 CONJ} the [One] {3588 T-NSM} Lord {2962 N-NSM} to the [one] {3588 T-ASF} to an ecclesia {1577 N-ASF}

***
5:30* ὅτι μέλη ἐσμὲν τοῦ σώματος αὐτοῦ, ἐκ τῆς σαρκός αὐτοῦ καί ἐκ τῶν ὀστέων αὐτοῦ.

hoti melE esmen tou sOmatos autou ek tEs sarkos autou kai ek tOn osteOn autou

that members we be of the body of Same (out of the flesh of Same, and out of the bones of Same),
that {3754 CONJ} members {3196 N-NPN} we be {1510 V-PAI-1P} of the [thing] {3588 T-GSN} of a body {4983 N-GSN} of same [One] {0846 P-GSM} out {1537 PREP} of the [one] {3588 T-GSF} of a flesh {4561 N-GSF} of same [One] {0846 P-GSM} and {2532 CONJ} out {1537 PREP} of the [things] {3588 T-GPN} of bones {3747 N-GPN} of same [One] {0846 P-GSM}


***
5:31* ἀντὶ τούτου καταλείψει ἄνθρωπος τὸν πατέρα αὐτοῦ καὶ τὴν μητέρα, καὶ προσκολληθήσεται
πρὸς τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἔσονται οἱ δύο εἰς σάρκα μίαν.

anti toutou kataleipsei anthrOpos ton patera autou kai tEn mEtera kai proskollEthEsetai
pros tEn gunaika autou kai esontai hoi duo eis sarka mian

instead of this [thing]: A HUMAN TO THE FATHER AND THE MOTHER OF SAME HE WILL DOWN-LEAVE, AND TOWARDS THE WIFE OF SAME HE WILL BE TOWARDS-CLEAVED, AND INTO THE ONE FLESH THE TWO [ONES] THEY WILL BE.
instead {0473 PREP} of this [thing] {3778 D-GSN} he will down-leave {2641 V-FAI-3S} a human {0444 N-NSM} to the [one] {3588 T-ASM} to a father {3962 N-ASM} of same [one] {0846 P-GSM} and {2532 CONJ} to the [one] {3588 T-ASF} to a mother {3384 N-ASF} and {2532 CONJ} he will be towards-cleaved {4347 V-FPI-3S} towards {4314 PREP} to the [one] {3588 T-ASF} to a wife {1135 N-ASF} of a same [one] {0846 P-GSM} and {2532 CONJ} there will be {1510 V-FDI-3P} the [ones] {3588 T-NPM} two {1417 A-NUI} into {1519 PREP} to a flesh {4561 N-ASF} to one [one] {1520 A-ASF}

***

5:32 Τὸ μυστήριον τοῦτο μέγα ἐστίν· ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω εἰς χριστόν καὶ εἰς τὴν ἐκκλησίαν.

to mustErion touto mega estin egO de legO eis christon kai eis tEn ekklEsian

This [matter], the great secret it be, yet I for’ [the] Anointed and for’ the ecclesia I say.
the [thing] {3588 T-NSN} a secret {3466 N-NSN} this [thing] {3778 D-NSN} a great [thing] {3173 A-NSN} it be {1510 V-PAI-3S} I {1473 P-1NS} yet {1161 CONJ} I say {3004 V-PAI-1S} for’/ into {1519 PREP} to Anointed/ to Christ {5547 N-ASM} and {2532 CONJ} for’/ into {1519 PREP} to the [one] {3588 T-ASF} to an ecclesia {1577 N-ASF}

 

[LT]

(Robin)
Not to argue, but I'm sure that they are not the same ... our apostle Paul only talks to the body of Christ.

But, here's an interesting though, one that I came away with while doing my own translations: In verse 5:28 Paul makes the observation about a our "relationship" with Christ ...and in 5:29 he concludes, "according-as also, the Lord to the ecclesia"
but then in 5:30 he says something that you will only find in the Byzantine sourced readings,
"(out of the flesh of Same, and out of the bones of Same)"

And in the following verse, he makes a very interesting statement ..."instead of this [thing]"
Think about it ..."instead of this" ... instead of this thing, this, the following form of relationship ...
and then he quotes from the OT ... INSTEAD of this relationship ... instead of this marriage relationship?

Instead of the very close (toward-cleaved; one flesh) relationship ... instead of this, rather something even closer?
"out of the flesh of Same, and out of the bones of Same"That is, a bride to husband in sexual embrace is juat about one flesh, but what if "instead" a relationship of being
actually part of Christ, His compliment ... of the same flesh and bones ... the Body of Christ?




***

5:28* Οὕτως ὀφείλουσιν οἱ ἄνδρες ἀγαπᾷν τὰς ἑαυτῶν γυναῖκας ὡς τὰ ἑαυτῶν σώματα. Ὁ ἀγαπῶν τὴν ἑαυτοῦ γυναῖκα, ἑαυτὸν ἀγαπᾷ·

houtOs opheilousin hoi andres agapan tas heautOn gunaikas hOs ta heautOn sOmata ho agapOn tEn heautou gunaika heauton agapa

Thus the husbands to the wives of themselves they indebt to love, as to the bodies of themselves; the [husband] to the wife of himself loving, [as] himself he loves.
thus {3779 ADV} they indebt {3784 V-PAI-3P} the [ones] {3588 T-NPM} husbands {0435 N-NPM} to love {0025 V-PAN} to the [ones] {3588 T-APF} of themselves {1438 F-3GPM} to wives {1135 N-APF} as {5613 ADV} to the [things] {3588 T-APN} of themselves {1438 F-3GPM} to bodies {4983 N-APN} the [one] {3588 T-NSM} loving {0025 V-PAP-NSM} to the [one] {3588 T-ASF} of himself {1438 F-3GSM} to a wife {1135 N-ASF} to himself {1438 F-3ASM} he loves {0025 V-PAI-3S}


***
5:29* οὐδεὶς γάρ ποτε τὴν ἑαυτοῦ σάρκα ἐμίσησεν, ἀλλʼ ἐκτρέφει καὶ θάλπει αὐτήν, καθὼς καὶ ὁ κύριος τὴν ἐκκλησίαν·

oudeis gar pote tEn heautou sarka emisEsen all ektrephei kai thalpei autEn kathOs kai ho kurios tEn
ekklEsian

For not-yet-one when-once to the flesh of himself he had hated, but to same [flesh] he out-nourishes and he cherishes, according-as also, the Lord to the ecclesia,
not-yet-one [one] {3762 A-NSM-N} for {1063 CONJ} when-once {4218 PRT} to the [one] {3588 T-ASF} of himself {1438 F-3GSM} to a flesh {4561 N-ASF} he had hated {3404 V-AAI-3S} but {0235 CONJ} he out-nourishes {1625 V-PAI-3S} and {2532 CONJ} he cherishes {2282 V-PAI-3S} to a same [one] {0846 P-ASF} according-as {2531 ADV} also {2532 CONJ} the [One] {3588 T-NSM} Lord {2962 N-NSM} to the [one] {3588 T-ASF} to an ecclesia {1577 N-ASF}

***
5:30* ὅτι μέλη ἐσμὲν τοῦ σώματος αὐτοῦ, ἐκ τῆς σαρκός αὐτοῦ καί ἐκ τῶν ὀστέων αὐτοῦ.

hoti melE esmen tou sOmatos autou ek tEs sarkos autou kai ek tOn osteOn autou

that members we be of the body of Same (out of the flesh of Same, and out of the bones of Same),
that {3754 CONJ} members {3196 N-NPN} we be {1510 V-PAI-1P} of the [thing] {3588 T-GSN} of a body {4983 N-GSN} of same [One] {0846 P-GSM} out {1537 PREP} of the [one] {3588 T-GSF} of a flesh {4561 N-GSF} of same [One] {0846 P-GSM} and {2532 CONJ} out {1537 PREP} of the [things] {3588 T-GPN} of bones {3747 N-GPN} of same [One] {0846 P-GSM}


***
5:31* ἀντὶ τούτου καταλείψει ἄνθρωπος τὸν πατέρα αὐτοῦ καὶ τὴν μητέρα, καὶ προσκολληθήσεται
πρὸς τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἔσονται οἱ δύο εἰς σάρκα μίαν.

anti toutou kataleipsei anthrOpos ton patera autou kai tEn mEtera kai proskollEthEsetai
pros tEn gunaika autou kai esontai hoi duo eis sarka mian

instead of this [thing]: A HUMAN TO THE FATHER AND THE MOTHER OF SAME HE WILL DOWN-LEAVE, AND TOWARDS THE WIFE OF SAME HE WILL BE TOWARDS-CLEAVED, AND INTO THE ONE FLESH THE TWO [ONES] THEY WILL BE.
instead {0473 PREP} of this [thing] {3778 D-GSN} he will down-leave {2641 V-FAI-3S} a human {0444 N-NSM} to the [one] {3588 T-ASM} to a father {3962 N-ASM} of same [one] {0846 P-GSM} and {2532 CONJ} to the [one] {3588 T-ASF} to a mother {3384 N-ASF} and {2532 CONJ} he will be towards-cleaved {4347 V-FPI-3S} towards {4314 PREP} to the [one] {3588 T-ASF} to a wife {1135 N-ASF} of a same [one] {0846 P-GSM} and {2532 CONJ} there will be {1510 V-FDI-3P} the [ones] {3588 T-NPM} two {1417 A-NUI} into {1519 PREP} to a flesh {4561 N-ASF} to one [one] {1520 A-ASF}

***

5:32 Τὸ μυστήριον τοῦτο μέγα ἐστίν· ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω εἰς χριστόν καὶ εἰς τὴν ἐκκλησίαν.

to mustErion touto mega estin egO de legO eis christon kai eis tEn ekklEsian

This [matter], the great secret it be, yet I for’ [the] Anointed and for’ the ecclesia I say.
the [thing] {3588 T-NSN} a secret {3466 N-NSN} this [thing] {3778 D-NSN} a great [thing] {3173 A-NSN} it be {1510 V-PAI-3S} I {1473 P-1NS} yet {1161 CONJ} I say {3004 V-PAI-1S} for’/ into {1519 PREP} to Anointed/ to Christ {5547 N-ASM} and {2532 CONJ} for’/ into {1519 PREP} to the [one] {3588 T-ASF} to an ecclesia {1577 N-ASF}

I think you may be reading some meaning into those words.
The context, Ephesians 5, and specifically from verse 21 to 32, certainly is making a clear statement about Christ's relationship with the Church (her), with direct comparison (and not any contrast) to "wife".

 

[dcontroversal]

The streets in New Jerusalem are paved with pure gold!

 

[Pemican]

[h=1]This poem by J R R Tolkien has always been a favorite of mine. Life is a journey leading to the door to eternity.

“The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say”[/h]

 

[robinriley]

I think you may be reading some meaning into those words.
The context, Ephesians 5, and specifically from verse 21 to 32, certainly is making a clear statement about Christ's relationship with the Church (her), with direct comparison (and not any contrast) to "wife".

(Robin)
You might have a point, LT ... there's always the possibility of my "reading" something into a verse, as perhaps you are, also,
into those Ephesians verses?

Be that as it may, when Paul says, "This matter, the great SECRET it be" ...surely, one has to pause and say
... WHAT! ...Great secret? ... How could that be, since this is a quotation from the OT ... No secret there!

So then, if Paul is saying that something here, is a secret revealed to the ecclesia, than one would have to, at least,
suspect that the marriage ...relationship ... described in this quotation, isn't the secret. Therefore, what is Paul referring to,
as this great secret he's, now, revealing to the ecclesia? It must be, then, something else he's said immediately before this ...

"that members we be of the body of Same
(out of the flesh of Same,
and out of the bones of Same)"

That "Same" or "autou" being, of course, the previously mentioned "the Lord to the ecclesia" ...
Now then, you might have a good argument that "into the one flesh" equates to being "out of the flesh of Same," but "into" and "out of" are two different words/prepositions, with two different meanings. The believers coming "into" a relationship, where they are then "together-cleaved" unto the Lord, might ... if you think about it ... be somewhat different from our relationship with Christ, "out of," particularly, since we, the body of Christ, we're foreknown as such, His body, since before time began.

And then, of course, there are those problematic "bones" ... we be "out of the bones of Same" ... Surelly you have to at least wonder about that; that is, the marriage relationship is close. as close as two "flesh" can become, but Paul is taking this to a whole other realm, when he says we, the body of Christ, are out of, part of Christ's very bones in our closer relationship.

True, I may well be "reading" something into all this ... but tell me true, are you not, then, even reading the very words; that is, are you then, reading "out" ... leaving out ... something that is being said, here?

Now then, as for your other Epheisans verses ... I hear your objection, but I've just got to ask, what is the context? Is this a discription of the ecclesia's relationship to Christ, or ... or ... is this, rather, something... the topic ...introduced in verse 5:21,
that of submitting; the subjection of one individual under or to another, in the fear of Christ.

That is, these, your "proof texts," more obviously relate to three particular relationships of man's social life ... those of husbands and wives, (and in the following chapter) parents and children, masters and servants. The relationship of husbands and wives, being the most fundamental, is taken up befor the others,, and the duty of believing wives is set forth first ... wives submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord ... as to ("hos), even as, in the same manner as, like as ... to Christ. The point being that the wife is to regard the obedience she has to render to her husband, as an obedience rendered to Christ. This is talking about social relationships and obedience ... the secret is an aside, an instead statement, concerning yet another matter, the eccleisia, as the body of Christ.

This is something, most likely, that we are not going to see eye to eye about ... that's alright ...but my point was, that in Paul's epistles, we are always equated to the body of Christ, and nowhere to a wife, especially to the bride of the Lambkin; our's is a special relationship, a different and an even more blessed relationship.

 

[crossnote]

Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
(Joh 14:6)

This way (road) actually is not a road or path at all, it is a Person. He is not a road or a 'way' but THEE WAY.
The Way is found IN HIM.

 

[LT]

(Robin)
You might have a point, LT ... there's always the possibility of my "reading" something into a verse, as perhaps you are, also,
into those Ephesians verses?

Be that as it may, when Paul says, "This matter, the great SECRET it be" ...surely, one has to pause and say
... WHAT! ...Great secret? ... How could that be, since this is a quotation from the OT ... No secret there!

So then, if Paul is saying that something here, is a secret revealed to the ecclesia, than one would have to, at least,
suspect that the marriage ...relationship ... described in this quotation, isn't the secret. Therefore, what is Paul referring to,
as this great secret he's, now, revealing to the ecclesia? It must be, then, something else he's said immediately before this ...

"that members we be of the body of Same
(out of the flesh of Same,
and out of the bones of Same)"

That "Same" or "autou" being, of course, the previously mentioned "the Lord to the ecclesia" ...
Now then, you might have a good argument that "into the one flesh" equates to being "out of the flesh of Same," but "into" and "out of" are two different words/prepositions, with two different meanings. The believers coming "into" a relationship, where they are then "together-cleaved" unto the Lord, might ... if you think about it ... be somewhat different from our relationship with Christ, "out of," particularly, since we, the body of Christ, we're foreknown as such, His body, since before time began.

And then, of course, there are those problematic "bones" ... we be "out of the bones of Same" ... Surelly you have to at least wonder about that; that is, the marriage relationship is close. as close as two "flesh" can become, but Paul is taking this to a whole other realm, when he says we, the body of Christ, are out of, part of Christ's very bones in our closer relationship.

True, I may well be "reading" something into all this ... but tell me true, are you not, then, even reading the very words; that is, are you then, reading "out" ... leaving out ... something that is being said, here?

Now then, as for your other Epheisans verses ... I hear your objection, but I've just got to ask, what is the context? Is this a discription of the ecclesia's relationship to Christ, or ... or ... is this, rather, something... the topic ...introduced in verse 5:21,
that of submitting; the subjection of one individual under or to another, in the fear of Christ.

That is, these, your "proof texts," more obviously relate to three particular relationships of man's social life ... those of husbands and wives, (and in the following chapter) parents and children, masters and servants. The relationship of husbands and wives, being the most fundamental, is taken up befor the others,, and the duty of believing wives is set forth first ... wives submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord ... as to ("hos), even as, in the same manner as, like as ... to Christ. The point being that the wife is to regard the obedience she has to render to her husband, as an obedience rendered to Christ. This is talking about social relationships and obedience ... the secret is an aside, an instead statement, concerning yet another matter, the eccleisia, as the body of Christ.

This is something, most likely, that we are not going to see eye to eye about ... that's alright ...but my point was, that in Paul's epistles, we are always equated to the body of Christ, and nowhere to a wife, especially to the bride of the Lambkin; our's is a special relationship, a different and an even more blessed relationship.

Then who or what is the bride of the Lamb?
If we are made one with Christ, in what way is this if not by what is laid out in Scripture as being the way two become one?
Also, the mystery is in the relation to the Church and Christ, which was not revealed in the OT, which is why it's called a mystery. It is revealed, in part, because it relates to us.

I suppose I need to hear your interpretation of Eph 5 in layman's terms, because I seem to be misunderstanding your rendering of the Greek. Thus far, I just don't understand how you are differentiating the Church from wife, even with your translation changes. Try and give a paraphrase, if you will.

Perhaps I am simply not understanding the evidence presented.