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Thread: What is the Problem with this?

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    Default What is the Problem with this?

    What is the problem with this approach?

    To understand and decipher unfulfilled prophecies by guidance given by the following two methods:


    1. Develop a dictionary of words as defined by the prophecies fulfilled in the first century. Use these definitions to understand the prophecies regarding the second coming. Words such as mountain, road, valley, wilderness, sun, moon, stars, Elijah, return, see etc are defined this way. Example: Luke 3:4-6

    2. Analyze the interpretations given by the New Testament to the events in the Old Testament to expand your dictionary and add words such as sea, clouds, heaven, coming down, rock, eat, drink, viper, etc... Example: John 6:31-35, 1 Corinthians 10:1-5

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    Default Re: What is the Problem with this?

    The biggest problem is the assumption that each of the different writers of various books meant the particular word they wrote in the same way another writer used it.
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    Default Re: What is the Problem with this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie-T View Post
    The biggest problem is the assumption that each of the different writers of various books meant the particular word they wrote in the same way another writer used it.
    Examples please?

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    Default Re: What is the Problem with this?

    No problem at all if one has the Holy Spirit and mind of Christ to interpret the many similitudes, parables, proverbs, metaphors, allegories etc. It is the mind of the flesh (carnally minded man) that will not be able to see and hear what the Spirit is truly saying in all the many symbolisms.

    Mark 4:11
    And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

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    Default Re: What is the Problem with this?

    Quote Originally Posted by thebesttrees View Post
    Examples please?
    The Sun & Moon & Stars in Joseph's dream (a prophecy of his Father & Mother & Brothers)... as compared to people thinking the Sun & Moon & Stars in Revelation are real, astronomical bodies, instead of national and political influences and powers of society.
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    Default Re: What is the Problem with this?

    Quote Originally Posted by thebesttrees View Post
    What is the problem with this approach?

    To understand and decipher unfulfilled prophecies by guidance given by the following two methods:


    1. Develop a dictionary of words as defined by the prophecies fulfilled in the first century. Use these definitions to understand the prophecies regarding the second coming. Words such as mountain, road, valley, wilderness, sun, moon, stars, Elijah, return, see etc are defined this way. Example: Luke 3:4-6

    2. Analyze the interpretations given by the New Testament to the events in the Old Testament to expand your dictionary and add words such as sea, clouds, heaven, coming down, rock, eat, drink, viper, etc... Example: John 6:31-35, 1 Corinthians 10:1-5
    Regarding specific words, I believe that it is the context that should be considered first, especially in the book of Revelation. For example the word "Star" in Revelation is used symbolically to represent several different literal meanings. And in this case, it is the context for the most part that bares out the symbolic meaning, that is, the other words in the scripture that support the main topic. In the book of Revelation Star(s) are used to represent the following:

    Stars as Messengers/Angels - (Rev.1:20)

    Star as representing the Lord Jesus - (Rev.2:26)

    Stars representing Meteorites/Asteroids - (Rev.6:12-13)

    Star representing an unknown object - (Rev.8:10-11)

    Stars representing literal Stars - (Rev.8:12)

    Stars representing the twelve tribes of Israel - (Rev.12:1)


    Star symbolically representing an angel(s) - (Rev.9:1-2, 12:3-4)

    Conclusion: I believe that the context should be consulted first to interpret the meaning behind any symbolism, followed by its uses elsewhere in scripture.















































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    Default Re: What is the Problem with this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie-T View Post
    The Sun & Moon & Stars in Joseph's dream (a prophecy of his Father & Mother & Brothers)... as compared to people thinking the Sun & Moon & Stars in Revelation are real, astronomical bodies, instead of national and political influences and powers of society.
    I agree.You are saying what I am saying then.

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    Default Re: What is the Problem with this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahwatukee View Post
    Regarding specific words, I believe that it is the context that should be considered first, especially in the book of Revelation. For example the word "Star" in Revelation is used symbolically to represent several different literal meanings. And in this case, it is the context for the most part that bares out the symbolic meaning, that is, the other words in the scripture that support the main topic. In the book of Revelation Star(s) are used to represent the following:

    Stars as Messengers/Angels - (Rev.1:20)

    Star as representing the Lord Jesus - (Rev.2:26)

    Stars representing Meteorites/Asteroids - (Rev.6:12-13)

    Star representing an unknown object - (Rev.8:10-11)

    Stars representing literal Stars - (Rev.8:12)

    Stars representing the twelve tribes of Israel - (Rev.12:1)


    Star symbolically representing an angel(s) - (Rev.9:1-2, 12:3-4)

    Conclusion: I believe that the context should be consulted first to interpret the meaning behind any symbolism, followed by its uses elsewhere in scripture.














































    Let us take one of the examples that you have cited above: Revelation 6:12-13

    12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
    13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

    How do you conclude that the verses refer to astronomical bodies? What prior proof is there from the Bible that such interpretation was given? Again let me go back to the two methods that I outlined in my thread:

    1. Develop a dictionary of words as defined by the prophecies fulfilled in the first century. Use these definitions to understand the prophecies regarding the second coming. Words such as mountain, road, valley, wilderness, sun, moon, stars, Elijah, return, see etc are defined this way. Example: Luke 3:4-6

    2. Analyze the interpretations given by the New Testament to the events in the Old Testament to expand your dictionary and add words such as sea, clouds, heaven, coming down, rock, eat, drink, viper, etc... Example: John 6:31-35, 1 Corinthians 10:1-5

    Stars, sun and moon are clearly defined by the authors of Bible. Do you have any reference that defines them as astronomical bodies in the context of prophecy?

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    Default Re: What is the Problem with this?

    Quote Originally Posted by thebesttrees View Post
    What is the problem with this approach?

    To understand and decipher unfulfilled prophecies by guidance given by the following two methods:


    1. Develop a dictionary of words as defined by the prophecies fulfilled in the first century. Use these definitions to understand the prophecies regarding the second coming. Words such as mountain, road, valley, wilderness, sun, moon, stars, Elijah, return, see etc are defined this way. Example: Luke 3:4-6

    2. Analyze the interpretations given by the New Testament to the events in the Old Testament to expand your dictionary and add words such as sea, clouds, heaven, coming down, rock, eat, drink, viper, etc... Example: John 6:31-35, 1 Corinthians 10:1-5
    Q: What is the problem with this approach?
    A: Neither of them depend on the Holy Spirit.

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    Default Re: What is the Problem with this?

    Quote Originally Posted by thebesttrees View Post
    Let us take one of the examples that you have cited above: Revelation 6:12-13

    12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
    13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

    How do you conclude that the verses refer to astronomical bodies? What prior proof is there from the Bible that such interpretation was given? Again let me go back to the two methods that I outlined in my thread:

    1. Develop a dictionary of words as defined by the prophecies fulfilled in the first century. Use these definitions to understand the prophecies regarding the second coming. Words such as mountain, road, valley, wilderness, sun, moon, stars, Elijah, return, see etc are defined this way. Example: Luke 3:4-6

    2. Analyze the interpretations given by the New Testament to the events in the Old Testament to expand your dictionary and add words such as sea, clouds, heaven, coming down, rock, eat, drink, viper, etc... Example: John 6:31-35, 1 Corinthians 10:1-5

    Stars, sun and moon are clearly defined by the authors of Bible. Do you have any reference that defines them as astronomical bodies in the context of prophecy?
    I said for the "Most part" the context should be addressed first. I am not denying that the answers to symbolism in Revelation can be found elsewhere.

    In the case with your example above, there is nothing in the context that would lead the reader to the conclusion that anything but the literal sun, moon and stars are in view here. That is, there is nothing that points to them being symbolic. Furthermore, it is the OT prophesies such as Isa.13:10, 34:4, Joel 2:10 and Mt.24:29 that support a literal interpretation of the sun, moon and stars, but, I wouldn't have to go to these OT testament scriptures to understand that the literal sun, moon and stars are in view here in Rev.6:12-13.

    Stars, sun and moon are clearly defined by the authors of Bible.
    Rev.6:12-13 takes place at the 6th seal and therefore is concerning the wrath of God of which the sun, moon and stars are being used by God. But again, even though the OT supports that the sun, moon and stars are meant to be interpreted literally, I don't have to go there to come to that interpretation, because it is clear within the context.
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    Default Re: What is the Problem with this?

    Quote Originally Posted by convallaria View Post
    Q: What is the problem with this approach?
    A: Neither of them depend on the Holy Spirit.
    Surely the people who wrote these verses were guided by the Holy Spirit. I do agree with you that without the guidance of the Holy Spirit no true understanding is possible and at the same time one is to eliminate those understandings that originate with man. One such sure way of eliminating such understanding that originate with man is to only depend on what the Bible has given us and use that as a starting point.

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    Default Re: What is the Problem with this?

    Quote Originally Posted by thebesttrees View Post
    What is the problem with this approach?

    To understand and decipher unfulfilled prophecies by guidance given by the following two methods:


    1. Develop a dictionary of words as defined by the prophecies fulfilled in the first century. Use these definitions to understand the prophecies regarding the second coming. Words such as mountain, road, valley, wilderness, sun, moon, stars, Elijah, return, see etc are defined this way. Example: Luke 3:4-6

    2. Analyze the interpretations given by the New Testament to the events in the Old Testament to expand your dictionary and add words such as sea, clouds, heaven, coming down, rock, eat, drink, viper, etc... Example: John 6:31-35, 1 Corinthians 10:1-5
    The following is another good example of what I am talking about:

    "The fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night."

    It is obvious from the context itself that the literal sun, moon and stars are in view here and that without having to go to the OT or any other NT scripture. The last part of the verse supports that the literal sun, moon and stars are being struck and therefore darkened and that because it is mentioned that a third of the light during the day and night will be missing worldwide. I can garner this information right from the scripture itself. Again, I am not denying that God put the answers to symbolisms elsewhere in scripture, such as the woman clothed with the sun, the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars, the answer of her identity being found in Gen.37:9-10. But when there is nothing in the scripture itself that would point to symbolism, then one should not go looking for it. If the literal sense makes good sense, then don't seek any other sense.

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    Default Re: What is the Problem with this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahwatukee View Post
    The following is another good example of what I am talking about:

    "The fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night."

    It is obvious from the context itself that the literal sun, moon and stars are in view here and that without having to go to the OT or any other NT scripture. The last part of the verse supports that the literal sun, moon and stars are being struck and therefore darkened and that because it is mentioned that a third of the light during the day and night will be missing worldwide. I can garner this information right from the scripture itself. Again, I am not denying that God put the answers to symbolisms elsewhere in scripture, such as the woman clothed with the sun, the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars, the answer of her identity being found in Gen.37:9-10. But when there is nothing in the scripture itself that would point to symbolism, then one should not go looking for it. If the literal sense makes good sense, then don't seek any other sense.
    This is kind of a silly conclusion. Every single month (every 28 days) we have had virtually NO LIGHT from the moon, at all, for about a week, since time began...... So we are to be concerned about a 2/3 moon?
    Last edited by Willie-T; September 5th, 2015 at 08:01 PM.
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    I am the righteousness of God, in Christ Jesus.

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    Default Re: What is the Problem with this?

    Quote Originally Posted by thebesttrees View Post
    What is the problem with this approach?

    To understand and decipher unfulfilled prophecies by guidance given by the following two methods:


    1. Develop a dictionary of words as defined by the prophecies fulfilled in the first century. Use these definitions to understand the prophecies regarding the second coming. Words such as mountain, road, valley, wilderness, sun, moon, stars, Elijah, return, see etc are defined this way. Example: Luke 3:4-6

    2. Analyze the interpretations given by the New Testament to the events in the Old Testament to expand your dictionary and add words such as sea, clouds, heaven, coming down, rock, eat, drink, viper, etc... Example: John 6:31-35, 1 Corinthians 10:1-5
    Let's see. The whole Bible is a book about God inspired by God. It all points to man's need for a savior, the Savior and Deliverer, (Who is God.) And yet, too many think it's a crystal ball to decipher the future.

    Could that be the problem?
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    Default Re: What is the Problem with this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahwatukee View Post
    I said for the "Most part" the context should be addressed first. I am not denying that the answers to symbolism in Revelation can be found elsewhere.

    In the case with your example above, there is nothing in the context that would lead the reader to the conclusion that anything but the literal sun, moon and stars are in view here. That is, there is nothing that points to them being symbolic. Furthermore, it is the OT prophesies such as Isa.13:10, 34:4, Joel 2:10 and Mt.24:29 that support a literal interpretation of the sun, moon and stars, but, I wouldn't have to go to these OT testament scriptures to understand that the literal sun, moon and stars are in view here in Rev.6:12-13.



    Rev.6:12-13 takes place at the 6th seal and therefore is concerning the wrath of God of which the sun, moon and stars are being used by God. But again, even though the OT supports that the sun, moon and stars are meant to be interpreted literally, I don't have to go there to come to that interpretation, because it is clear within the context.
    Let us apply the reasoning that you propose above to the verses in Isaiah 40:3-4.

    Isaiah 40:3-4Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

    3 A voice is crying -- in a wilderness -- Prepare ye the way of Jehovah, Make straight in a desert a highway to our God.
    4 Every valley is raised up, And every mountain and hill become low, And the crooked place hath become a plain, And the entangled places a valley.


    What is there in the context that points to symbolism?


    Or let us apply your reasoning to another example

    Numbers 20:11-12Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

    11 and Moses lifteth up his hand, and smiteth the rock with his rod twice; and much water cometh out, and the company drink, also their beasts.

    Anything here that points to symbolism?

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    Default Re: What is the Problem with this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie-T View Post
    This is kind of a silly conclusion. Every single month (every 28 days) we have had virtually NO LIGHT from the moon, at all, for about a week, since time began...... So we are to be concerned about a 3/4 moon?
    I beg to differ. What the scripture is saying is that, when that plague takes place, God is going to darken a third of the sun, moon and stars so that whether day or night the earth will only be receiving 2/3 thirds of its normal light. And it's not just about the moon, but about there being a third of the sun light missing during the day. I personally don't know the reason for this plague at the 4th trumpet, but I lean towards God setting the stage for the following three trumpets which are demonic in nature. In any case, the sun, moon and stars will be darkened by a third so that the earth will receive two thirds of its normal light.

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    Default Re: What is the Problem with this?

    Quote Originally Posted by atwhatcost View Post
    Let's see. The whole Bible is a book about God inspired by God. It all points to man's need for a savior, the Savior and Deliverer, (Who is God.) And yet, too many think it's a crystal ball to decipher the future.

    Could that be the problem?
    Well, there's also the fact that people seem to think God hates his own creation, mankind (unless they straighten up) and can hardly wait for the chance to slaughter most of them. Yeah, I think we have a LOT of problems with our thinking.
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    Default Re: What is the Problem with this?

    Quote Originally Posted by atwhatcost View Post
    Let's see. The whole Bible is a book about God inspired by God. It all points to man's need for a savior, the Savior and Deliverer, (Who is God.) And yet, too many think it's a crystal ball to decipher the future.

    Could that be the problem?

    I am more concerned about the methods to decipher and I am trying to see if it is possible to come up with a method that is totally based on the Scriptures which together with the guidance of the Holy Spirit will minimize the chance of errors in understanding and thus increase our firmness in the belief in the Word of God.

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    Default Re: What is the Problem with this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahwatukee View Post
    I beg to differ. What the scripture is saying is that, when that plague takes place, God is going to darken a third of the sun, moon and stars so that whether day or night the earth will only be receiving 2/3 thirds of its normal light. And it's not just about the moon, but about there being a third of the sun light missing during the day. I personally don't know the reason for this plague at the 4th trumpet, but I lean towards God setting the stage for the following three trumpets which are demonic in nature. In any case, the sun, moon and stars will be darkened by a third so that the earth will receive two thirds of its normal light.
    Humm.... You mean like winter time is to much of the world today?
    Last edited by Willie-T; September 5th, 2015 at 08:11 PM.
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    Default Re: What is the Problem with this?

    I think we are VERY SERIOUSLY missing just what (who?) this "light" is that is going to be missing from our lives...... having no influence on the thoughts and actions of people.
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