question about the tribes of Israel

Pres19 · Sep 8, 2015

Hey everyone!
I have two questions that I need help with and I'm hoping y'all can help.

Okay so I've been doing a study on the tribes of Israel for about a month.. I can honestly say this is the first time I've ever really looked into the tribes of Israel. You'll have to forgive me for not knowing or understanding most of the tribes. So far during my study I have realized that there are really 13 tribes of Israel. My whole life I was only taught about the 12 tribes that are listed in the book of Revelations. It was kind of a shock to me when I realized that there are 13 tribes of Israel. Some of you may think I should have already known that and perhaps you're right but I'm a slow learner so give me time. Lol

Anyway..

During my study I found where the 13 tribes of Israel are listed.

The 13 tribes are listed in Numbers 1 starting in verse 20. They are,

Reuben
Simeon
Gad
Judah
Issachar
Zebulun
Ephraim
Manasseh
Benjamin
Dan
Asher
Naphtali

and then Levi (verse 47)

Now when I went and read Revelations 7:5-8 I realize that only 12 were listed. And I realized they left out the tribe of Dan.

Revelation 7:5-8 (KJV)

5*Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6*Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7*Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8*Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

................................................

So my questions are..

*Is there any biblical explanation why the tribe of Dan was excluded from this list?

And if there isn't any biblical proof.. does anybody have any insight as to why the tribe of Dan was excluded from Revelations?

oldhermit · Sep 8, 2015

There is a difference between between being listed among the tribes and having been granted a land inheritance in Canaan. While all of the sons of Jacob are the patriarchs of of their clan as one of the tribes of Israel, not all of them received a tribal possession when they entered Canaan. Neither Simeon nor Levi received such an inheritance. They are completely disinherited. Their place in history was to be as a scattered people within the other tribes. Because they would have no tribal possession in the land, Levi was scattered among the people to attend to the nations legal and spiritual needs. Simeon was to dwell in the heartland of the Judah but would have no possession of his own. Ephraim and Manasseh are granted an inheritance in their place.

dcontroversal · Sep 8, 2015

If I remember right Dan is called a serpent and was replaced by the sons of Joseph because of complete idolatry.......key words...if I remember right.....!

Old Hermit's statement as well.......

oldhermit · Sep 8, 2015

dcontroversal said:

Dan did receive a tribal inheritance as one of the nations in Israel. The only two who did not were Simion and Levi. Joseph's tribal inheritance was divided between Menassah and Ephraim.

dcontroversal · Sep 8, 2015

oldhermit said:

Yeah, I was referencing Dan being cut from the final list in Revelation which seems to be because of complete idolatry after they entered the land.....been a while...like 21 years since I really looked at it...that is why I said Old Hermit's statement as well.....

oldhermit · Sep 8, 2015

dcontroversal said:

I suppose that technically, Simeon was given land inheritance in Canaan but only as part of the inheritance of Judah. This is why on maps of the holy land you will see a boundary around Simeon inside the nation of Judah.

Pres19 · Sep 8, 2015

Thank you both! This helps alot. I guess I have a lot more studying to do now.

oldhermit · Sep 8, 2015

I am glad we could help. When speaking of the 12 tribes of Israel it is important to remember the context in which this is used. If one is speaking of the Patriarchs then these consist of only the 12 sons of Jacob. When speaking of the individual nations that comprised Israel the list will be different because they are defined by those Patriarchs who received an inheritance in the land. This is why we see a difference in the list of names between the three passages you gave.

Karraster · Sep 9, 2015

Wow, fascinating subject, thanks for bringing it up. I found some interesting info here:Genesis 49 - The Blessing of the Sons of Jacob

..and here's an excerpt: Dan is left out of the listing of tribes regarding the 144,000 in Revelation 7:5-8. But Dan is the first tribe listed in Ezekiel’s millennial roll call of the tribes (Ezekiel 48). This is a remarkable sign of God’s redemption.

I hope you post more about what you've learned

Dan58 · Sep 9, 2015

Pres19 said:

In Revelations 7:5-8, Dan and Ephraim are omitted, Levi and Joseph taking their places. For the reason, see Leviticus 24:10-16, Deuteronomy 29:18-21, Judges 18:2-31, 1 Kings 12:26-33, Hosea 4:17. Their restoration to earthly inheritance is shown (Ezekiel 48), the reason being given in Romans 11:29.

birdie · Sep 9, 2015

The book of Revelation is written in parable form (some people prefer to use the words metaphor or symbolism). Consequently, when the true believers are told in Rev. 3:9: " I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.", the Jews mentioned simply means those persons from the congregations of the church age and is not speaking of cultural Jews or a political nation of Israel in particular. Similarly, when Rev. 7 mentions twelve tribes of Israel it is not speaking of cultural Jews in particular, but is talking about all the true believers right through the church age. For illustrative purposes these persons are said to belong to the tribes. The reason is because true believers are a part of what the Bible calls 'the Israel of God", and these are any persons from any cultural country or background who are born again as new creatures in Christ, spiritual Israel.

valiant · Sep 9, 2015

It is important to recognise that the portions of the tribes altered over time. Thus by the time of the Judges Dan not only occupied their original portion, but a large portion of Dan had moved to Laish and its surrounds (Judges 18.11 ff)..

In the same way whilst the tribe of Simeon remained clearly identified in the South until the time of David (1 Chron 4.24-31), having settled in the midst of Judah, they later also extended into Mount Seir (v.42). They do, however, also appear later to have removed northwards en masse, so that in the days of Hezekiah they formed part of the northern tribes (2 Chron 15.8; 34.6) which would explain why in the days of Rehoboam they were numbered among the ten tribes as against Judah and Benjamin (1 Kings 11.31). It is significant that Ezekiel also appears to see Simeon as a northern tribe conjoining Issachar (Ezek 48.25)..

The omission of Dan makes quite clear that the '12 tribes' in Rev 7 are not literal. Why should God omit a whole tribe which was divided into two parts? This confirms what has been said above that the 12 tribes are symbolic of the whole people of God (compare James 1.1 where James writing to 'the 12 tribes' is writing to all Christians. His letter makes no distinction between Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians which would have been impossible if he was only writing to Jewish Christians for it would have meant that he had failed to give any teaching concerning one of the crucial issues of the time).

just-me · Sep 9, 2015

From what I understand about "Dan" is that they were supposed to posses slightly north of what is now called the "Gaza strip." Instead of doing that, they eventually settled in what we know as the "Golan Heights." Because of that, and other things, they were forever excluded from Israel.

Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward. Genesis 49:17

And of Dan he said, Dan is a lion's whelp: he shall leap from Bashan. Deuteronomy 33:22

And the Amorites forced the children of Dan into the mountain: for they would not suffer them to come down to the valley: Judges 1:34

Gilead abode beyond Jordan: and why did Dan remain in ships? Asher continued on the sea shore, and abode in his breaches. Judges 5:17

In those days there was no king in Israel: and in those days the tribe of the Danites sought them an inheritance to dwell in; for unto that day all their inheritance had not fallen unto them among the tribes of Israel. Judges 18:1

Above is Dan's original possession.
Below is Dan's final possession.

didymos · Sep 9, 2015

just-me said:

It's possible the Danites were originally part of the Sea Peoples who raided the coasts of the Levant and settled there after a while, especially in the coastal strip (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples). Among those Sea Peoples there were also the Peleset, who we came to know as Philistines. If the theory of the origin of the Danites is correct, they're the ones called Denyen in contemporary sources.

Origin

They are mentioned in the Amarna letters from the 14th century BC as possibly being related to the "Land of the Danuna" near Ugarit. The Egyptians described them as Sea Peoples...

Egyptian raids and settlement

They were raiders associated with the Eastern Mediterranean Dark Ages who attacked Egypt in 1207 BC in alliance with the Libyans and other Sea Peoples, as well as during the reign of Rameses III. The 20th Egyptian Dynasty allowed them to settle in Canaan, which was largely controlled by the Sea Peoples into the 11th century BC. Mercenaries from the Peleset manned the Egyptian garrison at Beth-shan and the Denyen shared the same fashion as them which some archeology suggests signifies a shared cemetery there...

Tribe of Dan

There are suggestions that the Denyen joined with Hebrews to form one of the original 12 tribes of Israel. No strong evidence support this view, however. A minority view first suggested by Yigael Yadin attempted to connect the Denyen with the Tribe of Dan, described as remaining on their ships in the early Song of Deborah, contrary to the mainstream view of Israelite history. It was speculated that the Denyen had been taken to Egypt, and subsequently settled between the Caphtorit Philistines and the Tjekker, along the Mediterranean coast with the Tribe of Dan subsequently deriving from them...

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denyen

just-me · Sep 9, 2015

didymos said:

I think that Dan came across the Jordan, from the east, with the rest of Israel.

“And it shall be on the day when ye shall pass over Jordan unto the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, that thou shalt set thee up great stones, and plaister them with plaister: And thou shalt write upon them all the words of this law, when thou art passed over, that thou mayest go in unto the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, a land that floweth with milk and honey; as the Lord God of thy fathers hath promised thee. Therefore it shall be when ye be gone over Jordan, that ye shall set up these stones, which I command you this day, in mount Ebal, and thou shalt plaister them with plaister.” Deuteronomy 27:2-4

“These shall stand upon mount Gerizim to bless the people, when ye are come over Jordan; Simeon, and Levi, and Judah, and Issachar, and Joseph, and Benjamin: And these shall stand upon mount Ebal to curse; Reuben, Gad, and Asher, and Zebulun, Dan, and Naphtali.” Deuteronomy 27:12-13

“Now therefore take you twelve men out of the tribes of Israel, out of every tribe a man.” Joshua 3:12 (These tribes would have included Joseph's two sons (Ephraim and Manasseh) minus Joseph, and minus Levi, being the priestly tribe, making up 12 tribes instead of 13 or 14.)

“And the children of Israel did so as Joshua commanded, and took up twelve stones out of the midst of Jordan, as the Lord spake unto Joshua, according to the number of the tribes of the children of Israel, and carried them over with them unto the place where they lodged, and laid them down there. And Joshua set up twelve stones in the midst of Jordan, in the place where the feet of the priests which bare the ark of the covenant stood: and they are there unto this day. For the priests which bare the ark stood in the midst of Jordan, until everything was finished that the Lord commanded Joshua to speak unto the people, according to all that Moses commanded Joshua: and the people hasted and passed over.” Joshua 4:8-10

Tintin · Sep 9, 2015

birdie said:

The book of Revelation is written in parable form (some people prefer to use the words metaphor or symbolism). Consequently, when the true believers are told in Rev. 3:9: " I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.", the Jews mentioned simply means those persons from the congregations of the church age and is not speaking of cultural Jews or a political nation of Israel in particular. Similarly, when Rev. 7 mentions twelve tribes of Israel it is not speaking of cultural Jews in particular, but is talking about all the true believers right through the church age. For illustrative purposes these persons are said to belong to the tribes. The reason is because true believers are a part of what the Bible calls 'the Israel of God", and these are any persons from any cultural country or background who are born again as new creatures in Christ, spiritual Israel.

No. For the last time, a parable is a parable. As in the sort of stories Jesus shared. The Book of Revelation uses a lot of metaphor and symbolism, but that's different to parables.

valiant · Sep 9, 2015

just-me said:

One thing we have to admire is the way that by some Christians tribes of Israel can be dismissed or incorporated at will. Is it inconvenient? Throw it out? Do we need it? Bring it in again. After all it is only a tribe of Israel.

Not all of the tribe of Dan moved to Laish. An examination of the narrative in Judges makes clear that only a portion of Dan was involved. How could that possibly result in the tribe of Dan being expelled?

Dan was such an established part of Israel that Israel was described as being 'from Dan to Beersheba'. In Ezekiel's description of Israel Dan is an established part. On what grounds then can we use vague verses to throw them out? The tribes of Israel are regularly listed and equally regularly a tribe is omitted. The omitted tribe differs from one listing to another. It is quite clear that the twelve listed are always seen as representing the whole of Israel.

Nor are there any good grounds for excluding Dan if the tribes are intended to be taken literally. And why should the naming of the gates in the New Jerusalem after the tribes of Israel exclude Dan? If taken literally it is all totally inconsistent.

JimmieD · Sep 9, 2015

Pres19 said:

-Consider also that the tribes listed in the Song of Deborah (Judg 5:14-18) are:

Ephraim, Benjamin, Machir, Zebulun, Issachar, Ruben, Gilead, Dan, Asher, and Naphtali

In the Song of Deborah there are only 10 tribes listed. Manasseh, Judah, Gad, Simeon, and Levi are completely absent.

-We could also think that Joseph was originally a tribe to itself before being distinguished into Ephraim and Manesseh. It was Joseph that received the tribal blessings in Genesis, not Ephraim and Manesseh who are not mentioned.

-In Judges 1, recounting the conquest of Canaan, the only tribes mentioned are:

Judah, Joseph, Manasseh, Ephraim, Zebulun, Asher, Naphtali, and Dan.

So in Judges 1 we only have 8 tribes listed, this list doesn't match other lists, and t appears that Joseph is distinguished from Ephraim and Manasseh.

-There are other lists also that either don't match and/or the math doesn't quite add up:

Josh 13-19 when the land is being divided up and allotted to the tribes.
1 Chr 4-8
1 Chr 27
Deut 33
1 Kings 11:31-32
Judg 19-20
2 Sam 2:8-10

DiscipleDave · Sep 9, 2015

Pres19 said:

First off there are only Twelve Tribes of Israel. Ephraim and Manasseh both belonged to the Tribe of Joseph. They both received of the inheritance that which was to belong to Joseph. In other words Ephraim and Manasseh SPLIT the inheritance that belonged to Joseph. Now granted, both of them (Ephraim and Manasseh) was referred to as individual tribes.

As to Revelations 7:5-8, those verses have nothing to do with the listing of the 12 Tribes of Israel. Those verses are quite clear, and was referring to whom was going to be sealed in the last days. The Tribe of Dan is not listed because there are NONE in the tribe of Dan that will be sealed with the 144,000. How do we know this? Because they are not listed as one of the Tribes that will be sealed. Now as to the WHY they are not sealed, i know not, and will try to remember to ask God, if and when He chooses to speak with me again.

^i^ responding to OP

valiant · Sep 10, 2015

DiscipleDave said:

If you don't know why the tribe of Dan was excluded you disqualify yourself from speaking on the matter. It is quite cdlear to normal people that God would not exclude a whole tribe for no obvious reason. It is thus quite clear that the list in Rev 7 cannot be taken literally. Indeed those who are sealed by GOD are ALL Christians, the whole of the true Israerl.

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