God did away with some of His own sayings
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BarlyGurl
Guest
>>>>Yet if one chastens me because I decide to have a few pork chops and potatoes for dinner. and claim I am in sin because I am disobeying the law, Then they are out of line. <<<<
I am pretty sure there NO ONE in this thread that would CHASTEN <above> this person for having pork chops for dinner... for a variety of "other" things??? yes sir!!
I am pretty sure there NO ONE in this thread that would CHASTEN <above> this person for having pork chops for dinner... for a variety of "other" things??? yes sir!!
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BeanieD
Guest
"forgive others or the Lord won't forgive you. Thats an old testament principle. In the new it is stated that we forgive others as the Lord has forgiven us, meaning we already have the forgiveness. That is just one example. "
Matthew 6:14,15 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15- But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses"
Matthew 6:14,15 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15- But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses"
Forgive us the same as we forgive is the proper order. That hasn't changed.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. Matthew 6:12
Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. Matthew 5:24
First things first don'tchaknow. (smile)
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Colossians 3:13King James Version (KJV)
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Ephesians 4:32King James Version (KJV)
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Tell me, do you not see the difference? One is legalistic by nature and the other is a matter of grace. One says if you don't forgive others God won't forgive you. The other says to forgive others because God has forgiven you. There is a contradiction that you are going to have to address in whatever doctrine you subscribe to.
There is truth in this. But one must remember the Old is the foundation of the new and not the other way around.
But you cannot interpret the OT except through the lens of the cross or you then end up into legalism or a works based salvation of self-righteousness. The foundation is Jesus, and through Him we have been set free from what was against us and now serve in the newness of the Spirit.
The old is a guide and serves a purpose but Grace has come and holding on to the shadow to me is like a grown man still crawling when he should be walking.Something about that is not right.
Without seeing the shadow one can not be sure that they are seeing what makes it. within the shape of the shadow lies the shape of the reality.
Many Christians will say that the Old Covenant was works based. Well that just screams ignorance concerning the Old. The Old was just as much a faith by grace as the new is. Now many will sight many new testament texts especially by Paul to say, "but Paul says it was works" however if they actually knew the Old Covenant they would know what Paul was actually meaning when He says those things.
For example one could read a letter where someone speaks of a famous painting and how the painter worked for 3 years on it in the past. and some one else may teach see this painting took 3 years to paint when if they knew the actual history it was painted in two days but took 3 years of work to get it recognized by the art studio. simple example I know but it serves my point. The error makes sense until you know the what actually took place.
Paul never meant the Old covenant was a works based covenant at all. and anyone who actually knows the Old Covenant sees this clearly.
Blessings for obedience, curses for disobedience. Go under the Law and tell me how that works for you. Then come back to me and tell me how much you need Jesus to be in His rest and realize that indeed the Old Covenant is a works based covenant. One that you will gladly be set free from and take Jesus up on His offer of His yoke being easy and burden being light.
The Old Covenant was not just as much "faith by grace" as the New Covenant, this is clearly said throughout scripture. The Law was given by Moses but grace and truth came by Jesus. I also would like to share these verses with you... from Romans 4.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
The Law is not just like a covenant of faith and grace, not at all.
Sola Scriptura (scripture alone). Though people's faith will be in God's word, the faith truly emerges as a result of who's word it is. From the One who is faithful. So rather your faith is in the One that has spoken and He is not a liar.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
>>>>Yet if one chastens me because I decide to have a few pork chops and potatoes for dinner. and claim I am in sin because I am disobeying the law, Then they are out of line. <<<<
I am pretty sure there NO ONE in this thread that would CHASTEN <above> this person for having pork chops for dinner... for a variety of "other" things??? yes sir!!
Oh there are some in here who would..
and I am sure everyone one of us could be chastened for something (wink)
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
One is the law, one is grace..
the two are apposed to each other, some people just does not want to comprehend this.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
ahh, Maybe so, but is it? Without the new, the old would be useless. so what is the foundation?
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atwhatcost
Guest
Sorry in delay for responding, but this is where I can finally open my big fat mouth, and then, when I could, sure enough, I couldn't sleep so couldn't think clearly enough to follow through. Arrrggghhhh!!!Well then,, let me give you the floor. What is your personal incentive in observance to the Law, spiritually and not carnally? How does the Law apply to your life, from a spiritual and not carnal perspective? Thank you for answering clearly, that, yes, to not observe the Law has an eternal consequence.
We have finally gotten to the meat of our discussion. To anyone waiting to jump in and ask just-me questions, feel free to do so now. This isn't to say I will stop asking questions, but I think this clearly defines his perspective, in some way, for me.
Just-me thanks for entertaining my questions, and another one just came to mind. When you say observe the Law, what are you observing from the Law (if not carnally, spiritually, or maybe both)?
I'm glad the two of you finally settled things, because nothing got settled in my mind. lol
Here is my analogy to the law. I'd like both of you to let me know if you agree or don't agree -- obviously giving rooms for "but."
Covenant is a contract. Let's put it into a contract most of us have experience in signing -- an apartment lease. The landlord is God.
Here are the conditions of us living in the apartment:
2 I am Jehovah thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them, for I Jehovah thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate me,
6 and showing lovingkindness unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
7 Thou shalt not take the name of Jehovah thy God in vain; for Jehovah will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work;
10 but the seventh day is a sabbath unto Jehovah thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 for in six days Jehovah made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore Jehovah blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12 Honor thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long in the land which Jehovah thy God giveth thee.
13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is thy neighbor's.
We sign the dotted line with all plans to fulfill our end, fully aware the oxen looks better than the neighbor's wife anyway. (I'm kidding, but honestly, don't we do that? Look in the law for what we would have no problems doing, and ignoring the obvious parts where there is no way we can do that?)
Well, that doesn't last long. We fail. The landlord has all rights to kick us out. Not just kick us out -- destroy us and put us into everlasting hell. But he has a soft spot for us that equals his demand to keep the law, so he pulls out the same contract and has his son sign it in blood. Then the son moves in and works with us to keep the contract.
Now what? Do we point to him and say, "you did it, so lah-dee-dah! I don't have to"? Do we say, "Not my problem anymore. You fulfilled it"? Do we say, "It's not the same contract, so I really don't have to worry about it"?
I'm really asking both Ben and Just what's the deal with that second contract? What's the purpose of the first? What is our part in it -- then and now, old and new?
I see the same rules still apply, but now we have someone assisting us to do those rules because we want to because we love him. I also see where as I may want to keep the Sabbath holy most the time, there are times when it seems to me I have "the right" to labor on that day simply because I feel like it. (THAT is willfully sinning, no matter how you want to slice that, but Jesus still has his signature on the contract, so he still owns me and doesn't give up on me for willing sin.) So, still not always perfect in it, but he's got me more willing to do it than I used to be in the first contract.
What do you two think in my analogy?
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pottersclay
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