Understanding The Holy Trinity

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Aug 29, 2015
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#1
How can we understand john 14:9 and exodus 33:20? It seems to me a contradiction. I am having great difficulty understanding the holy trinity and reading these verse's further confuses me
john14:9 has jesus saying those who have seen ME have seen GOD
exodus 33:20 says no man shall see GODS face and live
 
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MadParrotWoman

Guest
#2
God = Father, Son and Holy spirit although when we speak of God we sometimes are referring to The Father. When Jesus speaks of seeing Him and the Father as one He is referring to the 3in1 Godhead. We cannot see the face of The Father and live.
 
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Aug 29, 2015
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#3
With all due respect john 14:9 has Jesus saying all who have seen me have seen The Father,he's quite specific about calling him the father not GOD or any other name yet you and exodus33:20 says knowone can see GODs face and live,you understand that God the father and jesus the son are one and the same but when Jesus is talking about his father he is talking about God the Father of the trinity!! These two verses still contradict eachother
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
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#4
With all due respect john 14:9 has Jesus saying all who have seen me have seen The Father,he's quite specific about calling him the father not GOD or any other name yet you and exodus33:20 says knowone can see GODs face and live,you understand that God the father and jesus the son are one and the same but when Jesus is talking about his father he is talking about God the Father of the trinity!! These two verses still contradict eachother
When Jesus said all who have seen Him have seen the Father, Jesus was speaking of God. It was a declaration that He (Jesus) was also God. God come in the flesh. He is as much God as the Father or the Holy Spirit is. Anytime anyone saw God in the Old Testament, they were seeing a pre-incarnation of Christ, as The (not "an") Angel Of The Lord. Be it in the burning bush, or when Jacob wrestled with Jesus.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#5
With all due respect john 14:9 has Jesus saying all who have seen me have seen The Father,he's quite specific about calling him the father not GOD or any other name yet you and exodus33:20 says knowone can see GODs face and live,you understand that God the father and jesus the son are one and the same but when Jesus is talking about his father he is talking about God the Father of the trinity!! These two verses still contradict eachother

Exodus 33:20 is using an anthropomorphism. God is Spirit, He has no "face" as such.

Jesus was God come as a man, and as a man living in total dependence upon God the Father He perfectly reveals the Father to us.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
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#6
With all due respect john 14:9 has Jesus saying all who have seen me have seen The Father,he's quite specific about calling him the father not GOD or any other name yet you and exodus33:20 says knowone can see GODs face and live,you understand that God the father and jesus the son are one and the same but when Jesus is talking about his father he is talking about God the Father of the trinity!! These two verses still contradict eachother
So what is your opinion about that?
 
Aug 29, 2015
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#7
Genesis 32:22-32 would seem to disagree with what your saying about Jacob.It clearly states that Jacob wrestles with GOD,not a pre-incarnation of Jesus,and Jacob knew about the law that any man who sees the face of a God will no longer live because he goes on to say how great full he is that he's still alive! All I'm saying is the verse I've highlighted mentions nothing about a pre- incarnation of Jesus,this seems like somthing that has been assumed by believers of the holy trinity and is not written in scripture.As god then goes on to change Jacobs name to Israel who go on to become Gods people,I think this verse is very important for me to understand as part of my struggle to comprehend the holy trinity,this seems to be a big contradiction and an example of man changing scriptures meanings to fit in with the holy trinity idea
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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#8
How can we understand john 14:9 and exodus 33:20? It seems to me a contradiction. I am having great difficulty understanding the holy trinity and reading these verse's further confuses me
john14:9 has jesus saying those who have seen ME have seen GOD
exodus 33:20 says no man shall see GODS face and live
God is the One Whom no man has seen or can see (1 Tim 6.16). What men can see is God when veiled in some way, e.g. in human form. Moses saw only his 'back parts', the tail end of His glory.

The Apostles saw God in human form, not in His essential make up.

When Jesus revealed something of His true glory on the mount of transfiguration the Apostles hid their eyes.
 
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Aug 29, 2015
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#9
It seems to be saying that Jesus and GOD are the same being because if you have seen jesus you have seen The father but this cannot be correct because if man has seen the face of the father he will not live unless "will not live" doesn't mean actually die as in dead,not alive,not breathing," willnot or cannot live" could mean a man who has seen jesus and therefor the father will not live for eternity in Heavon!!!! If this is what it means then what about all of the Christians who have never actually seen Jesus as he died over 2000 years ago unless if "to see jesus " also means to accept him as our saviour and the messiah!!!!!! You know what,that actually makes sence to me!!!!!!!!
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#10
How can we understand john 14:9 and exodus 33:20? It seems to me a contradiction. I am having great difficulty understanding the holy trinity and reading these verse's further confuses me
john14:9 has jesus saying those who have seen ME have seen GOD
exodus 33:20 says no man shall see GODS face and live
I think in Exodus face is used in a metaphorical sense. The one true GOD is invisible. I'm pretty sure the only face he has is the word, who became Christ.
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
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#11
Genesis 32:22-32 would seem to disagree with what your saying about Jacob.It clearly states that Jacob wrestles with GOD

He did wrestle with God. But He is described as a "man" in Genesis (as He appeared to Jacob) and if you read the other account of the incident is Hosea 12: 2-5, He is described as THE angel. (As in "The Angel Of The Lord" - the pre-incarnate Christ).

No actual man or created angel can be called God. And so, it was Jesus.


This may help: The Angel of the Lord | Lamb & Lion Ministries
 
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Sep 4, 2012
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#12
He did wrestle with God. But He is described as a "man" in Genesis (as He appeared to Jacob) and if you read the other account of the incident is Hosea 12: 2-5, He is described as THE angel. (As in "The Angel Of The Lord" - the pre-incarnate Christ).

No actual man or created angel can be called God. And so, it was Jesus.
But Jesus, the man, didn't exist yet.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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#13
It seems to be saying that Jesus and GOD are the same being because if you have seen jesus you have seen The father but this cannot be correct because if man has seen the face of the father he will not live unless "will not live" doesn't mean actually die as in dead,not alive,not breathing," willnot or cannot live" could mean a man who has seen jesus and therefor the father will not live for eternity in Heavon!!!! If this is what it means then what about all of the Christians who have never actually seen Jesus as he died over 2000 years ago unless if "to see jesus " also means to accept him as our saviour and the messiah!!!!!! You know what,that actually makes sence to me!!!!!!!!
To 'see the face of God' is to behold Him in all His glory. No man can do that and live. Thus God pleases to reveal Himself in veiled form
 
Aug 29, 2015
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#14
I tried to edit my previous answer but ran out of time so I'll try again,considering john14:9 and Exodus 32:22 it seems they contradict eachother but thinking about it,if any man who has seen jesus has also seen the father must mean they are one and the same being,as no man can see the father and live this can't mean men actually die,stop breathing,drop dead can it because people would of been dropping like flies everytime jesus turned up somewhere! It must mean the cannot live there life anymore without God inside them,ie,the Holy Spirit !!!! Rather than it being a bad thing to see gods face or to know god personally it is infact a great thing,a great gift given by God to anyone who wants to see ( know) jesus!! Do you think I may of just convinced my self of the trinity after all???
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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#15
He did wrestle with God. But He is described as a "man" in Genesis (as He appeared to Jacob) and if you read the other account of the incident is Hosea 12: 2-5, He is described as THE angel. (As in "The Angel Of The Lord" - the pre-incarnate Christ).

No actual man or created angel can be called God. And so, it was Jesus.
So are you saying that Jesus could not be called God? That is what your statement indicates.

Furthermore there is no good reason for seeing the leader of the three men who approached Abraham as not being God the Father. Indeed if we deny that then we deny that God the Father ever operated on earth at all, and yet YHWH's words to Abraham suggest otherwise. And if He did not operate on earth how can we have YHWH and the angel of YHWH in apposition?

We can become too clever in interpreting appearances of YHWH in the Old Testament. We do well not to be dogmatic. If God the Father wished to appear as a man or as an angel there was no way of stopping Him. And Jesus is never said to be an angel. Furthermore He BECAME man. He was not man in the Old Testament.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#16
Jesus is the physical ICON (image) of the invisible Heavenly Father ...when you see Jesus you see the Heavenly Father (God) Exodus<---No man has seen the invisible Heavenly Father/God because God is light and dwells in light and is SPIRIT.....men in the flesh cannot be where God is.....when a man dies the spirit that God gave man returns unto God who gave it....Imagine your invisible will and mindset as the Heavenly Father and your body is the physical manifestation of your will and mindset (actions).....both are equally God in power and application of power....a man can physically see your flesh, but not your mindset and or will other than by the action of the flesh....!
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#17
So are you saying that Jesus could not be called God? That is what your statement indicates.

Furthermore there is no good reason for seeing the leader of the three men who approached Abraham as not being God the Father. Indeed if we deny that then we deny that God the Father ever operated on earth at all, and yet YHWH's words to Abraham suggest otherwise. And if He did not operate on earth how can we have YHWH and the angel of YHWH in apposition?

We can become too clever in interpreting appearances of YHWH in the Old Testament. We do well not to be dogmatic. If God the Father wished to appear as a man or as an angel there was no way of stopping Him. And Jesus is never said to be an angel. Furthermore He BECAME man. He was not man in the Old Testament.
GOD the father dwells in the holiest place in heaven. Since man's fall he only works on earth through the agencies of his spirit and son.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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#18
I tried to edit my previous answer but ran out of time so I'll try again,considering john14:9 and Exodus 32:22 it seems they contradict eachother but thinking about it,if any man who has seen jesus has also seen the father must mean they are one and the same being,as no man can see the father and live this can't mean men actually die,stop breathing,drop dead can it because people would of been dropping like flies everytime jesus turned up somewhere! It must mean the cannot live there life anymore without God inside them,ie,the Holy Spirit !!!! Rather than it being a bad thing to see gods face or to know god personally it is infact a great thing,a great gift given by God to anyone who wants to see ( know) jesus!! Do you think I may of just convinced my self of the trinity after all???
No man has seen God AT ANY TIME (John 1.18). God is the One Whom no man has seen nor can see (1 Tim 6.16). Thus it is quite clear that no man has EVER seen God as He essentially is. What men have seen is God in veiled form, whether as Father, Son or Holy Spirit.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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#19
GOD the father dwells in the holiest place in heaven. Since man's fall he only works on earth through the agencies of his spirit and son.
Pure supposition and in fact unscriptural.

You mean that you do not have the Father dwelling within you on earth? Then you are not a Christian (John 14.23). This idea that we can separate God so that only part of Him is here is heresy. God is ONE. Where the Son is, there is the Father. Jesus made this clear to the Scribes and Pharisees. 'My Father works up to now and I work'. 'He who has seen ME has SEEN THE FATHER.' Where One member of the Triune God is at work ALL are at work.

As Jesus made clear in John 14 - I will send the Spirit to you --- I will come to you --- I and the Father will dwell within you.
 
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Sep 4, 2012
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#20
Pure supposition and in fact unscriptural.

You mean that you do not have the Father dwelling within you on earth? Then you are not a Christian (John 14.23). This idea that we can separate God so that only part of Him is here is heresy. God is ONE. Where the Son is, there is the Father. Jesus made this clear to the Scribes and Pharisees. 'My Father works up to now and I work'. 'He who has seen ME has SEEN THE FATHER.' Where One member of the Triune God is at work ALL are at work.

As Jesus made clear in John 14 - I will send the Spirit to you --- I will come to you --- I and the Father will dwell within you.
Where does it say in scripture that the father himself dwells in any man? The father dwells in us through his spirit. The holy spirit is distinct from the father. Was the father on earth when Christ was here. Of course not. Neither is he here now. In fact he won't be here until the 1000 year reign has ended and all rebellion has been put underfoot. That's when he finally comes to earth and Christ turns the kingdom over to him.