Have Evangelicals Lost the Gospel

[presidente]

If your doctrine and your churches doctrine doesn't quite line up with scripture, then your doctrine needs to change. Even though I was raised Evangelical, I have to admit that Evangelical presentations of the Gospel often don't sound that much like presentations of the Gospel in the Bible.

Here is stuff you hear Evangelicals say,
1 It's a relationship not a religion.
---When their Bible speaks of 'pure religion' in James 1. Unbelievers don't know our unique definitions of words like 'religion' so we shouldn't bog down our presentations of the Gospel with them.

2. It's all about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
---Jesus probably grew up with some folks who had personal relationships with Him who didn't believe the Gospel. The people in Nazareth knew him. Judas Iscariot had a personal relationship with Him, but Judas was lost.
---The apostles never present the Gospel as being about having a 'personal relationship with Jesus Christ.'
---Why should we think that the Hindu who wants to put a statue of Jesus on the shelf, the New Ager who wants a spirit guide, or the Muslim who doesn't believe that Jesus is the Son of God or that He rose from the dead, who repeats a prayer to 'accept Jesus' so he can have a personal relationship.... is saved?

3. The Bible does not teach you get saved by repeating a prayer.
--I saw a video made by an author who explained the 'sinner's prayer' ritual was popularized only in the 1950's, taken from a way to get people who were ready to make a profession of faith after a counselor went through the Bible with them and talked with them about their faith.
--Repeating a prayer doesn't save you. Saying it without faith won't save you. Asking people to repeat a prayer without explaining the Gospel to them first doesn't make any sense at all, though it seems to be the norm in many pulpits throughout the land.

4. The Bible does not teach that you get saved by 'asking Jesus into your heart.'
---Check it out. It's not there. Even 'behold I stand at the door and knock' is addressed to a church, not the unbeliever. And it doesn't mention Jesus coming into anyone's heart.
--- here is no reason to think that the verse that says, "But to as many as received Him..." refers to the modern evangelical ritual of repeating a prayer after a preacher, which hadn't even been in the first century.

5. The apostles preached Christ, the cross and the resurrection.
---One cannot claim the promise of salvation based on I Corinthians 15:1-4 if he doesn't believe that Jesus died for His sins and rose from the dead. One cannot claim the promise of salvation found in Romans 10:9-10 if he doesn't believe that Jesus rose from the dead.

---So why do so many preachers NOT tell sinners that Jesus died for their sins and rose again from the dead, but instead talk about having a 'personal relationship' and repeating a sinner's prayer. Some mention the cross and not the resurrection. Believing that Jesus died on the cross isn't enough to save you. Caiaphas believed that Jesus died on the cross. Plenty of pagan Romans believed that Jesus died on the cross. Plenty of atheists believe that Jesus died on the cross.

6. Our salvation is tied up with our faith that God raised Jesus from the dead.
---If Jesus hadn't risen, we would still be dead in our sins.

 

[presidente]

Somehow I left off support for point 6 and all of point 7,

I Corinthians 15
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
Romans 10

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


7. The apostles preached the Gospel and then called people to repentance, faith, and water baptism.

They didn't just say a bunch of evangelical clichés about 'relationship and not a religion', skip over the gospel, and ask people to pray a prayer to 'ask Jesus into your heart.'
Matthew 28:18

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[mpaper345]

Somehow I left off support for point 6 and all of point 7,

I Corinthians 15
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
Romans 10

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


7. The apostles preached the Gospel and then called people to repentance, faith, and water baptism.

They didn't just say a bunch of evangelical clichés about 'relationship and not a religion', skip over the gospel, and ask people to pray a prayer to 'ask Jesus into your heart.'
Matthew 28:18

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

That is the plan of salvation,to repent,be water baptized,and receive the Spirit,which the reason for that is because we have to identify with the man Christ Jesus,the 3 steps He took to provide salvation,He died,was buried,and resurrected,in which the Bible says if we are buried with Him,we shall also rise to newness of life with Him,and water baptism does also now save us,not the washing away of the filth of the flesh,but a good conscience towards God.

We have to be water baptized in the name of Jesus,for it is the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost,which Luke says baptism is to be preached in Jesus' name,and Jews,Gentiles,and Samaritans,were all baptized in Jesus' name,which people that believe in a trinity do not believe that because they will say that Jesus is the name of the Son only,but believing that Jesus is the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost,does not alone disprove a trinity,but means they all share the same name.In the Old Testament the Father said He would reveal a new name to the Jews and speak to them,Jesus said He came in His Father's name,and the Son inherited the name from the Father,and the Holy Spirit comes in the name of Jesus.

 

[presidente]

..deleted..

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

The simple Gospel is:

• God made everything that exists out of nothing and made mankind as the pinnacle of His creation designed for a relationship with him.
• Everyone has sinned.
• Despite our hatred for God, God still loves us, so much that He gave his only son to die in our place.
• God convicts us of our sins and leads us to confess our helplessness in the face of sin and our need for Him.
• We then turn from sin and towards God in trust in Him and in the work of Jesus on the cross which took our punishment.
• As an outward testimony to the reality of what has happened, God pours out His Holy Spirit on all believers the moment they believe and He affirms their faith by acceptance of their confession.
• As an outward testimony to the inward reality of what has happened to us in secret we outwardly declare to others our determination to follow Christ by being baptized.
• The church, on seeing that this has all occurred welcomes the new believer into membership of the family of God

Anything else is a bold-faced lie.

 

[notuptome]

Have they really lost it or do they simply ignore it?

Jesus Christ came God incarnate died on Calvary shed His blood was buried rose again and is seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven.

Salvation is by grace received through faith because Jesus did all that was necessary to purchase our redemption.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[presidente]

The simple Gospel is:

• God made everything that exists out of nothing and made mankind as the pinnacle of His creation designed for a relationship with him.
• Everyone has sinned.
• Despite our hatred for God, God still loves us, so much that He gave his only son to die in our place.
• God convicts us of our sins and leads us to confess our helplessness in the face of sin and our need for Him.
• We then turn from sin and towards God in trust in Him and in the work of Jesus on the cross which took our punishment.
• As an outward testimony to the reality of what has happened, God pours out His Holy Spirit on all believers the moment they believe and He affirms their faith by acceptance of their confession.
• As an outward testimony to the inward reality of what has happened to us in secret we outwardly declare to others our determination to follow Christ by being baptized.
• The church, on seeing that this has all occurred welcomes the new believer into membership of the family of God

Anything else is a bold-faced lie.

But how can they be saved if you don't say, "It's not a religion. It is a relationship" or have them repeat a prayer to 'ask Jesus into your heart'?

(That was an attempt at irony, btw.)

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

But how can they be saved if you don't say, "It's not a religion. It is a relationship" or have them repeat a prayer to 'ask Jesus into your heart'?

(That was an attempt at irony, btw.)

Yeah, I got that. Any joke you have to explain ...

... etc., etc., etc.

 

[valiant]

That is the plan of salvation,to repent,be water baptized,and receive the Spirit,which the reason for that is because we have to identify with the man Christ Jesus,the 3 steps He took to provide salvation,He died,was buried,and resurrected,in which the Bible says if we are buried with Him,we shall also rise to newness of life with Him,and water baptism does also now save us,not the washing away of the filth of the flesh,but a good conscience towards God.

Nowhere in Scripture does it say that this is 'the plan of salvation'. Elsewhere it is made clear that baptism is not necessary for salvation. Paul did not see it as 'preaching the Gospel' (1 Cor 1). Acts 2. 38 are simply Peter's instructions to the particular group he was speaking to. He is saying to Jews who have up to now not accepted Christ to repent (change your mind about Jesus Christ), be baptised in His Name, (demonstrating that you want to become His), and then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. He is NOT saying that these things are necessary for salvation. He is pointing to them as they way in which these people could openly respond to Christ.

We have to be water baptized in the name of Jesus,for it is the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost,which Luke says baptism is to be preached in Jesus' name,and Jews,Gentiles,and Samaritans,were all baptized in Jesus' name,which people that believe in a trinity do not believe that because they will say that Jesus is the name of the Son only,but believing that Jesus is the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost,does not alone disprove a trinity,but means they all share the same name.In the Old Testament the Father said He would reveal a new name to the Jews and speak to them,Jesus said He came in His Father's name,and the Son inherited the name from the Father,and the Holy Spirit comes in the name of Jesus.

You have not put this very clearly but it was Jesus Himself Who said that men had to be baptised into the ONE NAME of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, that is the name of YHWH. The Name of Jesus Christ into which men had to be baptised was the Name YHWH (see Phil 2.5-11). For Gentiles this was essential. They had to appreciate that they were coming to the true God, the God of Israel, through Jesus Christ. For Jews who already believed in the God of Israel the emphasis was on their transferring their allegiance away from Judaism to Jesus as God's Messiah.

 

[shotgunner]

I think too many Christians are too judgmental and critical of anything outside their own little box.

 

[presidente]

Have they really lost it or do they simply ignore it?

Since so many evangelicals hear that the Gospel is having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and asking Him to come into their heart, I think a lot of them believe that that is the Gospel.

 

[shotgunner]

Since so many evangelicals hear that the Gospel is having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and asking Him to come into their heart, I think a lot of them believe that that is the Gospel.

Do you think it is possible to have a personal relationship with someone and not know them? How can anyone have a personal relationship with Jesus and not know he died on a cross for their justification, not know that he rose from the dead? It's not possible.

All this is simply an attack against a group that you know nothing about. Despite that you have decided that they are teaching doctrine that is inferior to yours. As I said before, you are being way too critical based on a lack of knowledge.

 

[presidente]

Do you think it is possible to have a personal relationship with someone and not know them? How can anyone have a personal relationship with Jesus and not know he died on a cross for their justification, not know that he rose from the dead? It's not possible.

All this is simply an attack against a group that you know nothing about. Despite that you have decided that they are teaching doctrine that is inferior to yours. As I said before, you are being way too critical based on a lack of knowledge.

You don't know what you are talking about. I have been in the Evangelical movement for over 40 years.

Judas had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Jesus said that he was lost and called him the son of perdition. Was He saved? Were all the people Jesus was raised with in Nazareth, who had a 'personal relationship' with Him growing up, but didn't believe when He came to town, saved?

If an unbeliever doesn't know that Jesus rose from the dead, and you tell him the Gospel is having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, is telling Him that going to make him know about the resurrection?

 

[PeterJens]

If your doctrine and your churches doctrine doesn't quite line up with scripture, then your doctrine needs to change.

Your point is well made, but let us put this in context. A preacher is often summarising a series of ideas. Their skill is to highlight the important area for the individuals the Lord has called them to speak to. Many testify to the experience of being like a person the preacher was personally addressing, and they just had to respond.

The response is often emotional, the person realising they have a need, they are lost without help and Jesus is offering a helping hand. The preacher is seeking a public proclamation of this reality, so they can take the next step.

The important issue is the next step, and how people start this walk of discovery. I have led people to the Lord, and it is often framing the gospel to meet their current understanding, bringing Christ into the situation through prayer and helping them along the way.

The problem today is there is no longer a simple cultural framework for people to follow, so the rules and how to address them is very fluid. This means more time and care is needed to put things into their proper context, and a lot of traditional denominations and training of pastors cannot cope.

The problem I have is with the prosperity churches who claim to have christians in their churches but they have no idea what being saved by faith alone means, let alone tell you why Jesus had to die or why.

So I wonder why you have such concern, is it from personal experience?

 

[shotgunner]

You don't know what you are talking about. I have been in the Evangelical movement for over 40 years.

Judas had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Jesus said that he was lost and called him the son of perdition. Was He saved? Were all the people Jesus was raised with in Nazareth, who had a 'personal relationship' with Him growing up, but didn't believe when He came to town, saved?

If an unbeliever doesn't know that Jesus rose from the dead, and you tell him the Gospel is having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, is telling Him that going to make him know about the resurrection?

I've also been what is considered Evangelical for 19 years and there has been no lack of teaching of the death, burial and resurrection. Yes, I've been taught to have a personal relationship with Christ but you talk about that like it's a bad thing.

Reliance on Christ as your savior is what saves, that's all! it's not some strict formula that must be followed. If anyone wasn't saved during the ministry of Jesus it was because they didn't rely on him as savior, not because they knew him or had relationship with him but didn't know about the cross or resurrection. People were saved during the ministry of Jesus before he was even crucified.

 

[MarcR]

If your doctrine and your churches doctrine doesn't quite line up with scripture, then your doctrine needs to change. Even though I was raised Evangelical, I have to admit that Evangelical presentations of the Gospel often don't sound that much like presentations of the Gospel in the Bible.

Here is stuff you hear Evangelicals say,
1 It's a relationship not a religion.
---When their Bible speaks of 'pure religion' in James 1. Unbelievers don't know our unique definitions of words like 'religion' so we shouldn't bog down our presentations of the Gospel with them.

2. It's all about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
---Jesus probably grew up with some folks who had personal relationships with Him who didn't believe the Gospel. The people in Nazareth knew him. Judas Iscariot had a personal relationship with Him, but Judas was lost.
---The apostles never present the Gospel as being about having a 'personal relationship with Jesus Christ.'
---Why should we think that the Hindu who wants to put a statue of Jesus on the shelf, the New Ager who wants a spirit guide, or the Muslim who doesn't believe that Jesus is the Son of God or that He rose from the dead, who repeats a prayer to 'accept Jesus' so he can have a personal relationship.... is saved?

3. The Bible does not teach you get saved by repeating a prayer.
--I saw a video made by an author who explained the 'sinner's prayer' ritual was popularized only in the 1950's, taken from a way to get people who were ready to make a profession of faith after a counselor went through the Bible with them and talked with them about their faith.
--Repeating a prayer doesn't save you. Saying it without faith won't save you. Asking people to repeat a prayer without explaining the Gospel to them first doesn't make any sense at all, though it seems to be the norm in many pulpits throughout the land.

4. The Bible does not teach that you get saved by 'asking Jesus into your heart.'
---Check it out. It's not there. Even 'behold I stand at the door and knock' is addressed to a church, not the unbeliever. And it doesn't mention Jesus coming into anyone's heart.
--- here is no reason to think that the verse that says, "But to as many as received Him..." refers to the modern evangelical ritual of repeating a prayer after a preacher, which hadn't even been in the first century.

5. The apostles preached Christ, the cross and the resurrection.
---One cannot claim the promise of salvation based on I Corinthians 15:1-4 if he doesn't believe that Jesus died for His sins and rose from the dead. One cannot claim the promise of salvation found in Romans 10:9-10 if he doesn't believe that Jesus rose from the dead.

---So why do so many preachers NOT tell sinners that Jesus died for their sins and rose again from the dead, but instead talk about having a 'personal relationship' and repeating a sinner's prayer. Some mention the cross and not the resurrection. Believing that Jesus died on the cross isn't enough to save you. Caiaphas believed that Jesus died on the cross. Plenty of pagan Romans believed that Jesus died on the cross. Plenty of atheists believe that Jesus died on the cross.

6. Our salvation is tied up with our faith that God raised Jesus from the dead.
---If Jesus hadn't risen, we would still be dead in our sins.

I think that a great deal of how one responds to this depends on what you call Evangelical.

Evangelicalism, as I understand it, is the belief that Scripture alone has authority to determine articles of faith and practice.

On that basis, much of what calls itself Evangelical very simply is not!

This, of course, is nothing not anything new. Since the first century, much of what has called itself Christian has not been Christian at all.

Perhaps you need to rethink the basic premise of this thread!

 

[RickyZ]

Have they really lost it or do they simply ignore it?

Jesus Christ came God incarnate died on Calvary shed His blood was buried rose again and is seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven.

Salvation is by grace received through faith because Jesus did all that was necessary to purchase our redemption.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Oh geez Roger, here we go ag---

Hey wait! This time I agree with you!

See miracles do happen!

 

[crossnote]

Since so many evangelicals hear that the Gospel is having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and asking Him to come into their heart, I think a lot of them believe that that is the Gospel.

I think a little distinction is in order here.
It is true that the Gospel is never presented as 'having a personal relationship' in Scripture, but we can't deny that it is the result of believing the Gospel, (1Cor 15:1-4) and receiving the Holy Spirit. The resulting New Birth begins that 'personal relationship'.

Much of the overemphasis on a personal relationship is a pushback to Churchianity, where the faith is reduced to memorizing creeds, proper liturgies and a sermon on Sunday and 'we'll see you next week?'

 

[presidente]

So I wonder why you have such concern, is it from personal experience?

Of course it is. My concern is that what I see preached in scripture is often lacking from what is preached from the pulpit, on TV, and on street corners. I've been in church services where the cross and resurrection isn't mentioned, but the preacher leads people to ask Jesus into their heart. I've been in meetings where the same thing is done and the cross is mentioned, but not the resurrection.

I've also seen a preacher call a man who absent-mindedly raised his hand when the preacher asked who hadn't prayed to receive Christ. The man didn't know he was responding to an altar call. The preacher had him repeat a prayer, and he was declared a member of the body of Christ. It was obvious he wasn't trying to respond to the Gospel and I even confirmed that with him. I've heard a preacher say you aren't saved if you haven't said that prayer, and I've seen someone try to push someone who did not believe the Gospel just to repeat a prayer. I've also wondered about some of my own witnessing and being able to get young people to go along with me to repeat a prayer after me after some leading questions and some scripture verses when I was young. I wonder how many true conversations came of it. Seeds sown, yes, but I don't know if anyone was truly converted.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I think a little distinction is in order here.
It is true that the Gospel is never presented as 'having a personal relationship' in Scripture, but we can't deny that it is the result of believing the Gospel, (1Cor 15:1-4) and receiving the Holy Spirit. The resulting New Birth begins that 'personal relationship'.

Much of the overemphasis on a personal relationship is a pushback to Churchianity, where the faith is reduced to memorizing creeds, proper liturgies and a sermon on Sunday and 'we'll see you next week?'

The following would be pretty close to representing a personal relationship with the Lord wouldn't you agree?:

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me." (Personal fellowship with the Lord)