what was the purpose of the law?

[gotime]

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

So the law was to bring us to Christ. but why do we need a savior?

To save us from sin, what is sin?

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Paul said:

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

notice sin was here before the law came but without the law sin is not imputed.

Galatians says something similar:

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

notice it was added because of "transgressions" which is breaking the law.

now put it together. the law shows sin, yet sin was in the world before the law. So then the law did not make sin but rather was given to show that we were sinners as Paul says:

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Point Sin was already here but until the law we did not see it. So the law was added because of our sin to show us our need of saving.

Don't miss that, sin already was here, we were killing and cheating before the law came. This tells us that the law is eternal or else how could there have been sin? If nothing is wrong then how can it be wrong? hope you get my point there. but until the law was given in solid form sin was not imputed.

So here is another question.

If the law is what brings death and Jesus wants us to live then why not simply never give us the law? easy Sin was here before the law was given the Law only showed us our problem clearly. Sin is the problem not the law. The law was given to alert us of our sin.

So if sin is the problem even before the law came and death notice:

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

So death preceded the law also so death is a result of sin not the law alone.

what have we learned? Sin existed before the law and death also because of sin existed before the law. Here is the problem when there is no law how do I know that I am a sinner deserving of death? That is why God gave the law.

now I know why I am going to die which makes me seek for a savior.

SO then does it make any logical sense that Jesus died to take away the law?

No if that was the answer then why give it in the first place. answer: the problem was not the law but the sin. The law points out the sin/problem which Jesus came to fix.

So if sin is the problem then removing the law does not help me. what about simply removing the death penalty?

Well Jesus did take the penalty of death for us. but does removing the penalty fix the problem? No the problem is sin, Death is the consequence of the problem.

So then Jesus death and Resurrection must some how fix the problem that I sin. If sin does not stop then the problem is not fixed.

Remember the law points out sin that is why it was given.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

SO then does it make any logical sense that Jesus died to take away the law?

Jesus didn't die to do away with law, but to establish the preeminence of the greater law: love and faith.

 

[MarcR]

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

So the law was to bring us to Christ. but why do we need a savior?

To save us from sin, what is sin?

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Paul said:

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

notice sin was here before the law came but without the law sin is not imputed.

Galatians says something similar:

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

notice it was added because of "transgressions" which is breaking the law.

now put it together. the law shows sin, yet sin was in the world before the law. So then the law did not make sin but rather was given to show that we were sinners as Paul says:

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Point Sin was already here but until the law we did not see it. So the law was added because of our sin to show us our need of saving.

Don't miss that, sin already was here, we were killing and cheating before the law came. This tells us that the law is eternal or else how could there have been sin? If nothing is wrong then how can it be wrong? hope you get my point there. but until the law was given in solid form sin was not imputed.

So here is another question.

If the law is what brings death and Jesus wants us to live then why not simply never give us the law? easy Sin was here before the law was given the Law only showed us our problem clearly. Sin is the problem not the law. The law was given to alert us of our sin.

So if sin is the problem even before the law came and death notice:

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

So death preceded the law also so death is a result of sin not the law alone.

what have we learned? Sin existed before the law and death also because of sin existed before the law. Here is the problem when there is no law how do I know that I am a sinner deserving of death? That is why God gave the law.

now I know why I am going to die which makes me seek for a savior.

SO then does it make any logical sense that Jesus died to take away the law?

No if that was the answer then why give it in the first place. answer: the problem was not the law but the sin. The law points out the sin/problem which Jesus came to fix.

So if sin is the problem then removing the law does not help me. what about simply removing the death penalty?

Well Jesus did take the penalty of death for us. but does removing the penalty fix the problem? No the problem is sin, Death is the consequence of the problem.

So then Jesus death and Resurrection must some how fix the problem that I sin. If sin does not stop then the problem is not fixed.

Remember the law points out sin that is why it was given.

Good argument well developed! I still disagree.


Premise: The purpose of the Law is to persuade people that they can not please God bu their own efforts.

We see from the books of Exodus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Judges, Samuel (1&2), Kings (1&2), The major and minor Prophets, Ezra, and Nehemiah that at no time in the history of Israel (divided or not) was there widespread obedience of the law. Even under the Judges and Kings of Judea who ruled well there was rampant apostasy.

Even David, of whom God said: Acts 13:22
I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. KJV

though David was an adulterer and a murderer.



Rom 8:1-8
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

KJV


Rom 3:21-28
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

KJV


Rom 6:3-18
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

KJV


Gal 2:16-21
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

KJV

Therefore I believe that my inference is well founded.

 

[gotime]

Jesus didn't die to do away with law, but to establish the preeminence of the greater law: love and faith.

Amen the law of love and faith which are old testament laws.

Luk 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
Luk 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Remember the law points out sin that is why it was given.

No, the law was brought in to condemn sin. People knew what sin was before the law.

 

[gotime]

Good argument well developed! I still disagree.


Premise: The purpose of the Law is to persuade people that they can not please God bu their own efforts.

We see from the books of Exodus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Judges, Samuel (1&2), Kings (1&2), The major and minor Prophets, Ezra, and Nehemiah that at no time in the history of Israel (divided or not) was there widespread obedience of the law. Even under the Judges and Kings of Judea who ruled well there was rampant apostasy.

Even David, of whom God said: Acts 13:22
I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. KJV

though David was an adulterer and a murderer.



Rom 8:1-8
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

KJV


Rom 3:21-28
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

KJV


Rom 6:3-18
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

KJV


Gal 2:16-21
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

KJV

Therefore I believe that my inference is well founded.

I do agree to an extent.

The law could be kept then as God himself said:

Deu 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

but it was always about faith in God.

I agree it shows us that we can not keep it in our own strength. but the purpose Paul gives in the texts I gave above.

Romans 8 shows it well as you have stated in your post,

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

notice the law of the spirit in Christ makes us free form the law of sin and death. notice this is not a reference to the 10 commandment law. Paul refers to that law as "the law of God" as seen in these texts,



Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

SO note that the law of sin and death is not the 10 commandments but rather it is the opposite of them. But praise God Jesus frees us from that law of sin and death that holds us. and if we are free from that law then we are free to do what the slave in chapter 7 could not do though they wanted to. keep the law of God.

Now the law itself could not do this it was not give for this. it was given to point out sin. but Christ saved us from sin and gave us His spirit that the law may be fulfilled in us.

Paul here is speaking about being free from sin.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Amen the law of love and faith which are old testament laws.

Luk 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
Luk 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Exactly. It is the greater law of the old covenant that became the law of the new covenant.

 

[gotime]

No, the law was brought in to condemn sin. People knew what sin was before the law.

Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

seems Paul thought the law which was good points out sin.

 

[shotgunner]

"If the law is what brings death and Jesus wants us to live then why not simply never give us the law? easy Sin was here before the law was given the Law only showed us our problem clearly. Sin is the problem not the law. The law was given to alert us of our sin.

So if sin is the problem even before the law came and death notice:

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

So death preceded the law also so death is a result of sin not the law alone. "




Notice that death reigned even for those who had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression. The problem was that neither the law, nor the lack of sin could bring life.

 

[gotime]

Exactly. It is the greater law of the old covenant that became the law of the new covenant.

that greater law is the premise of the 10 commandments. all the law is summed up in the greater.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

that greater law is the premise of the 10 commandments. all the law is summed up in the greater.

Right, the 10 hang on the 2. The 2 are the foundation. Remove the 10 and the two still remain. Not saying the 10 have gone anywhere; it's just that the righteousness of the 2 is not dependent upon the 10 (because they are greater). On the other hand, the meaning of the 10 are dependent on the 2.

 

[gotime]

Bye the way I do agree with you on your premise I just think it has other reasons on top of that also. as Paul gives us.

Eg, point out sin, lead to a savior, which is because I can't keep it by my works.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

seems Paul thought the law which was good points out sin.

Well it does, but I don't think that was the main reason for law. IMO, it was to provide the legal framework to condemn sin in the flesh, thus effectuating our just salvation. GOD could have saved us without law, but not justly.

 

[gotime]

Right, the 10 hang on the 2. The 2 are the foundation. Remove the 10 and the two still remain. Not saying the 10 have gone anywhere; it's just that the righteousness of the 2 is not dependent upon the 10 (because they are greater). On the other hand, the meaning of the 10 are dependent on the 2.

I think I agree with this. just not sure about the one part. could be me misunderstanding you.

The two are the basis. if one kept the 10 but not the two they are in trouble, in fact I would say it is not possible to truley keep the 10 as without love we have nothing.

SO yes the 10 hang on the 2. But I don't think you can separate them. for example you can not love your neighbor and bear false witness about them. nor can you love them and steal from them.

So they are fulfilled by the greater.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

Acts 13:38-39
38Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Hebrews 7:19
19For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Galatians 3:11
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I think I agree with this. just not sure about the one part. could be me misunderstanding you.

The two are the basis. if one kept the 10 but not the two they are in trouble, in fact I would say it is not possible to truley keep the 10 as without love we have nothing.

SO yes the 10 hang on the 2. But I don't think you can separate them. for example you can not love your neighbor and bear false witness about them. nor can you love them and steal from them.

So they are fulfilled by the greater.

Well remember what I said in a prior comment on another thread that the letter doesn't always align with obedience. David ate the holy bread, which was against the letter, but GOD didn't condemn him. So violating the letter doesn't bring condemnation in every case.

 

[gotime]

Well it does, but I don't think that was the main reason for law. IMO, it was to provide the legal framework to condemn sin in the flesh, thus effectuating our just salvation. GOD could have saved us without law, but not justly.

Yes, there are more reasons. SIn was killing us and God gave the law to point out sin but that was not the means to an end. God wanted us to see our sin so we would see our need for a savior/Christ Jesus. It was a means to save us.

In a sense we are all blind sliding down a hill towards a cliff to curtain death. The law gives us sight but does not stop us from sliding. Jesus is the answer to the sliding problem but until we become aware of the problem we will not seek a solution. Thus I think the laws main goal was to lead us to Christ for salvation.

 

[gotime]

Well remember what I said in a prior comment on another thread that the letter doesn't always align with obedience. David ate the holy bread, which was against the letter, but GOD didn't condemn him. So violating the letter doesn't bring condemnation in every case.

I know the passage yes, but there is a difference. Those laws that David broke were to do with salvation from sin, not sin itself. we are talking about the 10 in which sin is made clear. do you see the difference? plus one would need something more conclusive than this to say that sin is ok in some cases.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Yes, there are more reasons. SIn was killing us and God gave the law to point out sin but that was not the means to an end. God wanted us to see our sin so we would see our need for a savior/Christ Jesus. It was a means to save us.

In a sense we are all blind sliding down a hill towards a cliff to curtain death. The law gives us sight but does not stop us from sliding. Jesus is the answer to the sliding problem but until we become aware of the problem we will not seek a solution. Thus I think the laws main goal was to lead us to Christ for salvation.

To be honest, I knew what sin was before I knew what the 10 commandments were, or before I was saved. I didn't know what it was, but I knew something was wrong. That's what made me hunger and thirst for righteousness. So it wasn't the law that convicted me of sin, but the holy spirit. When I believed and read the law then I had more clarity. Once I saw what the greatest law is, I saw clearly.

 

[gotime]

By the way Davids sin had grave results. priest and a city was put to death because of it. Jesus said it was unlawful. he does not say it was ok.

Yet what the priests were saying about the disciples was actually not against the law of God which stipulated that one could indeed do what they were doing.