How can God justify the ungodly and still maintain His integrity to His law?

Roberth · Oct 3, 2015

How can God justify the ungodly [Romans 4:5] and still maintain His integrity to His holy law which condemns sinners [Galatians 3:10]? I ask this because the law of God clearly prohibits an innocent man dying for the guilty:

Ez 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die: the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

nogard · Oct 4, 2015

I guess you haven't seen Exodus 20:5 (or the handful of other times in Scripture where this kind of things is said):

"You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,"

MarcR · Oct 4, 2015

Roberth said:

By God's standard we are all ungodly before we receive Salvation. Rom 3:9-10
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
KJV

By Jesus' justification we are changed from ungodly to the Righteousness of God.

Roberth · Oct 4, 2015

MarcR said:

Yes, but that doesn't answer my question: How can God justify the ungodly [Romans 4:5] and still maintain His integrity to His holy law which condemns sinners [Galatians 3:10]? I ask this because the law of God clearly prohibits an innocent man dying for the guilty.

God's states, through Ezekiel, that an innocent, sinless man such as Christ, can't die for sinners who have broken His law. Why? Jesus isn't the sinner, we are, and the law condemns sinners, not Christ the sinless one.

wattie · Oct 4, 2015

The law was fulfilled in Jesus the Messiah. It was pointing to Him. Jesus as the one sacrifice for all.

Jesus is God. That is how He can justify the ungodly.

Dan58 · Oct 4, 2015

Roberth said:

Ezekiel is just saying that a son isn't responsible for his fathers sin and vice-versa. In other words, we are all responsible for our own sins. So even if a father wanted to take responsibility for his sons sins, the fathers sacrifice would not be acceptable, because he too was guilty of breaking the law and condemned to death by the law.

The wages of sin is death, but only a person who knew no sin could suffer the penalty for those who did. Jesus alone atoned for sin. Ergo, the ungodly are justified in Christ, who kept all the law, that's how God maintained his integrity to the law. Only Christ could do this, because none of us are innocent.

prove-all · Oct 4, 2015

17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God:
and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

prove-all · Oct 4, 2015

2 Timothy 2:20
But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver,
[but also] of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

Romans 9:21
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make
one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Ecclesiastes 8:11
Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore
the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

Romans 9:22
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known,
endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

seed_time_harvest · Oct 4, 2015

Roberth said:

I really want also to hear the answer that is a satisfactory to the question you asked.

The first part of the question I would say that someone might ask the question wasn't it the LORD that was breaking his own law?

Like the women caught in adultery the law said that she must be stoned and instead JESUS had mercy on her.

JESUS himself satisfied the demand of the law by taking our place and on our behalf died at/on the cross.

Utah · Oct 4, 2015

Roberth said:

Jesus laid down His life on His own accord. Thus the law was not broken and God's integrity is intact.

FreeNChrist · Oct 4, 2015

Roberth said:

IOW, we are all guilty because of our own sins and iniquity, not another's.

There has only been One innocent man.

seed_time_harvest · Oct 4, 2015

Sorry.I tried to erase that post but I ran out of time.

MarcR · Oct 4, 2015

Roberth said:

Neither the word 'innocent' nor the word 'sinless' is used in the book of Ezekiel and you do not cite a reference.

That makes it difficult to answer your question.

MarcR · Oct 4, 2015

Roberth said:

Ezekiel 18:20 simply states that a son may not be punished for his father's sins and that each man is accountable for only his own sins. The issue of taking another person's punishment voluntary is not spoken of.

We see in the book of Daniel, and in the book of Esther that in the surrounding nations entire families were put to death for a father's sins. Ezek 18:20 is only citing Deut 24:16 in part.

Even if your reading of Ezek 18:20 were correct (IMO, it is not); Jesus was not only a man; He was God in a human body.

Nothing can be restrained from God.

prove-all · Oct 4, 2015

Roberth said:

because Christ became sin for us.

the devil sinned, should God kill him and break his own law,

if man sins he will die on his own,

but the gift of life, you have to eat from the right tree

Josefnospam · Oct 4, 2015

He doesn't justify the ungodly. He must punish them for their sins, And we are all sinners. That is why we need a Saviour and that saviour of all his people is Jesus Christ who died for all the sins of his chosen people and will never fail. And he 's not sitting around in heaven hoping you will let him help you, he is about his work of Saving ALL his elect, blood bought chosen people whom he chose before he made the world. We worship a great God who does as he pleases.

prove-all · Oct 4, 2015

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness,
and shew unto you that eternal life,which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;

In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

I am that bread of life.

This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

1 Peter 1:20 (KJV)
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Mark 4:22 (KJV)
For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad.

John 1:31 (KJV)
And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

John 3:21 (KJV)
But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

eternally-gratefull · Oct 4, 2015

1. A guilty man can not pay for another guilty man
2. we are all guilty of breaking the law, thus we can not pay for the sin of anyone.
3. The law showed in Sacrifice of an innocent lamb (without blemish) could take the sin of the people
4. Jesus was the lamb of God who tool away sin of the world. and unblemished man (one who was not guilty)

onlinebuddy · Oct 4, 2015

Roberth said:

This is a typical Muslim argument. Muslims would use the Mosiac Law to show that Jesus' sacrifice as a substitution in our place was not legal, and that God had contradicted his own Law.

They forget that the Law was not made for God, but by God.
The Law had a purpose: to show man that their best efforts in a corrupted world, could not make them righteous. Romans 4:5 and Gal 3:10 are saying the same thing.
The Law made man realize that they need a savior; a Messiah.
Jesus was that Messiah!

Now, if God chose Jesus, who was sinless, to pay for our sins, why would we complain?
I'm not complaining! I'm grateful! Halleluiah!!!!!!
Why would someone say, "God, you broke your own Law!"
Who are we to instruct God and hold Him accountable, when our fickle minds cannot even fully comprehend his vast glory?
Only a person who has rejected Christ (such as the Muslim) would argue on this.

...and Ezekiel 18:20 has been quoted out of context!

Roberth · Oct 4, 2015

wattie said:

But the law condemns sinners. It demands their death. Christ wasn't a sinner, so how could His death satisfy the broken law?

How can God justify the ungodly and still maintain His integrity to His law?

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