Law was to lead us to Christ.

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Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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#41
Ill tell the greatest deception Satan has done on Christians today is to give them a faulty view of the Old covenant.
The greatest deception of Satan is fear and guilt.

Its a pretty simple and easy plan to keep people in fear and guilt.

Until they come to Christ. Then those fiery darts don't seem to have the intended results anymore.

What do you believe, or rather, what does faith say?

It says that even though I am walking through the valley of the shadow of death I don't fear evil, Because Christ is with me and He leads me and keeps me on His Path.
 
Jul 23, 2015
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#42
:sisid: That is your word not ours :whistle:
So please never ever put your words to our lips as it may sin you first
my brother :happy:

That's the time where the wrong ideas went first for
some were afraid to ask first before pointing something to others that
only came from to their minds.

2 Corinthians: 10. 4. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty to God unto the pulling down of fortifications, destroying counsels,
5. And every height that exhalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every understanding unto the obedience of Christ;
 
Jul 23, 2015
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#43
:whistle: Another "man made doctrine" :rofl:
This verse is for real and not coming to a words of man
But unto the words of God
Revelation: 14. 6. And I saw another angel flying through the midst of heaven, having the eternal gospel, to preach unto them that sit upon the earth, and over every nation, and tribe, and tongue, and people:
7. Saying with a loud voice: Fear the Lord, and give him honour, because the hour of his judgment is come; and adore ye him, that made heaven and earth, the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Ecclesiastes: 12. 13. Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#44
Do you really think that is what the Sabbath is about only? Do you do no work everyday? no of course you don't cause your smart enough to know that is silly. So I am hoping your smart enough to know then that you can't keep the Sabbath everyday. Please examine what you are saying cause it really makes no sense at all. Resting in Christ every day is not the same as the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a day made Holy by the one you claim to follow. So again if you want to reject what He made holy in order to keep your own day/legalism then that is your choice. but enough of this silly nonsense about I rest every day as if that has anything to do with keeping or not keeping the day He made Holy.
Like I said I am not under the Law, so.......
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#45
but here is my main point:

Deu 30:10 "However, all this will happen only if you pay attention to what ADONAI your God says, so that you obey his mitzvot and regulations which are written in this book of the Torah, if you turn to ADONAI your God with all your heart and all your being.
Deu 30:11 For this mitzvah which I am giving you today is not too hard for you, it is not beyond your reach.
Deu 30:12 It isn't in the sky, so that you need to ask, 'Who will go up into the sky for us, bring it to us and make us hear it, so that we can obey it?'
Deu 30:13 Likewise, it isn't beyond the sea, so that you need to ask, 'Who will cross the sea for us, bring it to us and make us hear it, so that we can obey it?'
Deu 30:14 On the contrary, the word is very close to you - in your mouth, even in your heart; therefore, you can do it!

Either God lied here or he did not. Either they could keep all of them or God lied to them.
Your own evidence completely undermines your main point. Those Deuteronomy verses pertain to keeping faith, not keeping commandments of law. Paul said that when Moses said "You can do it", he was referring to the word of faith, not keeping laws.

For Moses writes about the righteousness that is from the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.” But the righteousness from faith speaks like this: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down), or “Who will descend into the abyss?” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near to you, in your mouth and in your heart”, that is, the word of faith that we proclaim, that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes into righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses into salvation. Romans 10:5-10

If Israel had followed faith they would have been blameless. Instead they followed law and were condemned.

btw I see you use the Complete Jewish Bible. A very dishonest translation.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#46
by the way I am not suggesting the new is wrong. But rather the new is founded on the old and if we come from the wrong direction we sill inevitably place bricks in the wrong place.
This a completely erroneous way of thinking. The new covenant grew out of the old covenant, but the new covenant is the foundation of truth, because Jesus is both the branch and the root. The lawgiver himself is the foundation, not the law he gave.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#47
Do you really think that is what the Sabbath is about only? Do you do no work everyday? no of course you don't cause your smart enough to know that is silly. So I am hoping your smart enough to know then that you can't keep the Sabbath everyday. Please examine what you are saying cause it really makes no sense at all. Resting in Christ every day is not the same as the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a day made Holy by the one you claim to follow. So again if you want to reject what He made holy in order to keep your own day/legalism then that is your choice. but enough of this silly nonsense about I rest every day as if that has anything to do with keeping or not keeping the day He made Holy.
What was keeping sabbath? Was it the letter of not doing physical labor on Saturdays, or was it the intent of the commandment to remember that it was GOD who was sanctifying Israel?

We have the holy spirit who witnesses every moment that GOD is sanctifying us. Why can't we be aware of that through faith every day, thus fulfilling the righteousness required by the 4th commandment?
 
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Sep 4, 2012
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#48
Do you really think that is what the Sabbath is about only? Do you do no work everyday? no of course you don't cause your smart enough to know that is silly. So I am hoping your smart enough to know then that you can't keep the Sabbath everyday. Please examine what you are saying cause it really makes no sense at all. Resting in Christ every day is not the same as the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a day made Holy by the one you claim to follow. So again if you want to reject what He made holy in order to keep your own day/legalism then that is your choice. but enough of this silly nonsense about I rest every day as if that has anything to do with keeping or not keeping the day He made Holy.
The sabbath is holy, yes, but those in Christ are more holy than the sabbath because they are one flesh with the one who made the sabbath holy. That which which makes holy is more holy that that which is made holy. So in reality, those in Christ make every day holy.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#49
Interesting response, I fail to see its relation to what I said. Unless you have a false notion of what being under the law means. But whatever helps you sleep better at night mate. If you don't want what God has given then be my guest make your own holy day. I am gonna stick with Christs works not mans.
Being under law means being under dos and don'ts. If we walk by the spirit we are not under dos and dont's because the spirit is the love that the dos and don'ts require.
 

laymen

Senior Member
Apr 6, 2014
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faithlife.com
#50
No its just power point. So people cant take Sentence's out of context when they reply.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
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#52
Your own evidence completely undermines your main point. Those Deuteronomy verses pertain to keeping faith, not keeping commandments of law. Paul said that when Moses said "You can do it", he was referring to the word of faith, not keeping laws.
For Moses writes about the righteousness that is from the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.” But the righteousness from faith speaks like this: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down), or “Who will descend into the abyss?” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near to you, in your mouth and in your heart”, that is, the word of faith that we proclaim, that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes into righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses into salvation. Romans 10:5-10

If Israel had followed faith they would have been blameless. Instead they followed law and were condemned.

btw I see you use the Complete Jewish Bible. A very dishonest translation.
I have to ask because I am shocked you said this. DO you actually believe this?

You have rightly used Romans in connection with this scripture in Deut. For indeed faith is the key and they did not do so by faith as you have rightly said. however to disconnect obedience form it is to deliberately dissect the scripture and only accept little bits that fit with your view.

Deu 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Deu 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

I have bolded that which Paul uses to make his faith point, thus faith is here mentioned in Deut. however what was that faith for or what did it have to do with?

Deu 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Deu 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

oh the commandments God has given. Thus they are kept by faith not by working at the law. but the end result of working at the law is sin and breaking it. the end result of faith is keeping them and succeeding in Gods power.

You my friend have undermined your view by clearly ignoring the fact that this faith is directly connected with keeping Gods commandments. its right there in plain English for you to read. It seems to me that you are being selective as to what parts you accept and what parts you ignore.

Isreal did not frail because the law could not be kept they failed because they did not have faith in God to cause them to keep it.

That is the point faith and works are connected. faith brings forth the works that are promised and in this case God says they can keep His law.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
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#53
Before that passage Paul makes it clear here:

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

They failed cause they tried to work at it. not because it could not be done. This is proved by the Gentiles who by faith were able to do that which Israel failed by works.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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#54
Ok I think I see where you are coming from now. I do not agree however as God said they could keep it and God does not lie. This means they must have been able to keep it.

So do you think that the spirit was not available n the Old testament. I ask because I think it was, though we know more about Him now. But I think the problem was not that they could not keep it but rather they did not do so by faith and rather tried by works.
Please cite the verse(s) where God said that they could keep it.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
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#55
Please cite the verse(s) where God said that they could keep it.
Deu 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Deu 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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#56
but here is my main point:

Deu 30:10 "However, all this will happen only if you pay attention to what ADONAI your God says, so that you obey his mitzvot and regulations which are written in this book of the Torah, if you turn to ADONAI your God with all your heart and all your being.
Deu 30:11 For this mitzvah which I am giving you today is not too hard for you, it is not beyond your reach.
Deu 30:12 It isn't in the sky, so that you need to ask, 'Who will go up into the sky for us, bring it to us and make us hear it, so that we can obey it?'
Deu 30:13 Likewise, it isn't beyond the sea, so that you need to ask, 'Who will cross the sea for us, bring it to us and make us hear it, so that we can obey it?'
Deu 30:14 On the contrary, the word is very close to you - in your mouth, even in your heart; therefore, you can do it!

Either God lied here or he did not. Either they could keep all of them or God lied to them.

Deut 30:14
14 For very near unto thee is the word, in thy mouth, and in thy heart — to do it.
YLT


The Hebrew actually reads: On the contrary, the word is very close to you - in your mouth, even וּבִֽלְבָבְ֖ךָ לַעֲשׂ֮תֽוֺ in your heart to do.

NOTHING in the Hebrew suggests ability or permission. The true sense is that God wants us to desire to do it.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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#57
Deut 30:14
14 For very near unto thee is the word, in thy mouth, and in thy heart — to do it.
YLT


The Hebrew actually reads: On the contrary, the word is very close to you - in your mouth, even וּבִֽלְבָבְ֖ךָ לַעֲשׂ֮תֽוֺ in your heart to do.

NOTHING in the Hebrew suggests ability or permission. The true sense is that God wants us to desire to do it.

The infinitive construct is frequently but, IMO improperly translated ' that thou may'; but the infinitive construct, In every Hebrew grammar, shows that the infinitive construct translates as the simple infinitive.

To convey the idea of 'that [thou (as determined by pronominal suffix)] may' in Hebrew, one must use כִּֿ֥י plus the imperfect as in Gen 38:16. This usage signifies ability or permission as context determines.
 
S

shotgunner

Guest
#58
Before that passage Paul makes it clear here:

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

They failed cause they tried to work at it. not because it could not be done. This is proved by the Gentiles who by faith were able to do that which Israel failed by works.
You are missing the whole point of faith. The faith that saves is not faith in yourself to keep the law, nor is it faith that Christ enables you to keep the law. The faith that saves is the faith that Christ has kept the law on your behalf and that he has paid the penalty of you not keeping the law. The faith that saves is totally dependent on Christ.

You have to understand that the only way to enter Heaven is by becoming one with Christ. In him we have kept the law, in Him we have paid the penalty of not keeping the law. Oneness with Christ will naturally lead to good works and fruits that abound to righteousness, but you are never judged by those fruits. Your efforts can never live up to the standard lived by Christ. It is only faith in Christ that succeeds, faith that he has already accomplished everything necessary for your salvation.
 
Jul 23, 2015
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#59
14 כי קרוב אליך הדבר מאד בפיך ובלבבך לעשתו

Some are using the Hebrew modern but if you put it into other
written testament like what is written in SP
Deuteronomy 30:14כִּֽי־קָר֥וֹב אֵלֶ֛יךָ הַדָּבָ֖ר מְאֹ֑ד בְּפִ֥יךָ וּבִֽלְבָבְךָ֖ לַעֲשֹׂתֽוֹ׃ ס
You wiil find the difference between each meaning.

That's why there is no such thing as 'tense' in biblical Hebrew. Biblical Hebrew is not a 'tense' language. Modern grammarians recognize that it is an 'aspectual' language. This means that the same form of a verb can be translated as either past, present, or future depending on the context and various grammatical cues.

According to someone who we never met before.

 
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Jul 23, 2015
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#60
:whistle: Like to those who were never had the power of the holy spirit within them
But only relies on the power of their own point of view :rofl:
The word of god has its own interpretation that is not coming from man but coming from the written word of god itself :happy:

That's the reason why became boastful to themselves
Which became the " man made doctrine " itself.
Man made doctrine are those doctrines which comes only from to those people
By means of speculation and doesn't have the word of truth that was written in the holy scripture for some of them twisted the truth of god.
I hate to say this but shame on them.
 
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