If King Saul...

[Abing]

So, I'd like to hear your views on this. See on the context below, God would have established the kingdom if Saul kept the commandment of the Lord.

1 Samuel 13:11-14 (KJV)
11 And Samuel said, What hast thou done? And Saul said, Because I saw that the people were scattered from me, and that thou camest not within the days appointed, and that the Philistines gathered themselves together at Michmash;
12 Therefore said I, The Philistines will come down now upon me to Gilgal, and I have not made supplication unto the Lord: I forced myself therefore, and offered a burnt offering.
13 And Samuel said to Saul, Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the Lord thy God, which he commanded thee: for now would the Lord have established thy kingdom upon Israel for ever.
14 But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the Lord hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the Lord hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the Lord commanded thee.

*Emphasis added*

What's interesting to me, which isn't written in the bible, is what would have happened if:

A) Saul didn't disobey God. Would David still be chosen as king, or would it have been Jonathan?
B) Saul asked forgiveness and repented. Would there have been any changes in the kingdom of Israel?

 

[MarcR]

So, I'd like to hear your views on this. See on the context below, God would have established the kingdom if Saul kept the commandment of the Lord.

1 Samuel 13:11-14 (KJV)
11 And Samuel said, What hast thou done? And Saul said, Because I saw that the people were scattered from me, and that thou camest not within the days appointed, and that the Philistines gathered themselves together at Michmash;
12 Therefore said I, The Philistines will come down now upon me to Gilgal, and I have not made supplication unto the Lord: I forced myself therefore, and offered a burnt offering.
13 And Samuel said to Saul, Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the Lord thy God, which he commanded thee: for now would the Lord have established thy kingdom upon Israel for ever.
14 But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the Lord hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the Lord hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the Lord commanded thee.

*Emphasis added*

What's interesting to me, which isn't written in the bible, is what would have happened if:

A) Saul didn't disobey God. Would David still be chosen as king, or would it have been Jonathan?
B) Saul asked forgiveness and repented. Would there have been any changes in the kingdom of Israel?

Abing,

Thank you for two really interesting and provocative questions!

The problem with 'what if' type questions is that any answer that one might give requires speculation by the one who answers. Speculation can be entertaining but it is inherently fiction.

 

[breno785au]

Its irrelevant, you can what if? anything. What if Adam didn't sin? What if Jesus backed out? What if Paul didn't follow Jesus after his encounter? Etc etc. There's enough to get out of what is written about Saul's life and what happened between him and David to worry about speculative questions and answers. What happened has happened and God knew it would happen how it happened

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

A) Saul didn't disobey God. Would David still be chosen as king, or would it have been Jonathan?
B) Saul asked forgiveness and repented. Would there have been any changes in the kingdom of Israel?

Keep in mind that GOD didn't want Israel to have an earthly king, and equated Israel's desire for one with rebellion against him. He relented and gave them their desire, IMO to teach them a lesson.

The Saul/David episode follows the same pattern of "first the natural, then the spiritual" that is repeated so many times in scripture (e.g., Ishmael/Isaac, Esau/Jacob, etc.). GOD provided these examples for our edification.

Also, Jacob had prophesied that the headship would be split off from the birthright belonging to Ephraim and given to Judah. Saul was of the tribe of Benjamin; David was of the tribe of Judah. Through David came Christ, who is now head of all creation.

So it was GOD's plan for events to transpire as they did, and no man could have thwarted them. GOD chose a wicked man to be Israel's first king, and Saul simply acted out his unregenerate nature. So as Marc said, speculation over such can only produce fiction.

 

[atwhatcost]

So, I'd like to hear your views on this. See on the context below, God would have established the kingdom if Saul kept the commandment of the Lord.

1 Samuel 13:11-14 (KJV)
11 And Samuel said, What hast thou done? And Saul said, Because I saw that the people were scattered from me, and that thou camest not within the days appointed, and that the Philistines gathered themselves together at Michmash;
12 Therefore said I, The Philistines will come down now upon me to Gilgal, and I have not made supplication unto the Lord: I forced myself therefore, and offered a burnt offering.
13 And Samuel said to Saul, Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the Lord thy God, which he commanded thee: for now would the Lord have established thy kingdom upon Israel for ever.
14 But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the Lord hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the Lord hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the Lord commanded thee.

*Emphasis added*

What's interesting to me, which isn't written in the bible, is what would have happened if:

A) Saul didn't disobey God. Would David still be chosen as king, or would it have been Jonathan?
B) Saul asked forgiveness and repented. Would there have been any changes in the kingdom of Israel?

My mind does "What if" in longer succession than your what ifs. lol

What if Saul had obeyed God?
This takes me back a step to
What if Israel had actually let God lead like he asked them to do. Then there would have been no need for a king.

What if Israel had actually listened to God when they took the land? All the other nations occupying that land would have been wiped out, unless the people converted to Jehovah followers.

What if the Israelites had obeyed God in the wilderness? There would have been no Law written on stone tablets and God would have continued with them in the form of a fire-cloud. Added bonus: The trip across the wilderness would have been shorter by roughly 40 years.

What if all people back then followed God? Then God wouldn't have had to tell Abraham to wait 400+ years to inherit a land, because mankind could come and go about all the land without worrying some schmoe is going to kill them simply for walking across a stretch of land.

What if mankind always followed God? There would have been no flood, Noah would have never needed to make a boat, we'd all be speaking the same language, and walking with God in the evening around a very huge Garden of Eden, naked and doing what we're supposed to be doing -- enjoying God forever.

And yet the Bible is a continuing story of God, how men won't follow him in our own will, but he was gracious enough to take on the rightful punishment of some, and does and will reign forever with his people because of that.

In reality the Bible is a long history of men not obeying God and how God has dealt with that in the most gracious of way. We are the adulterer, but our husband has forgiven and loved us of his will.

I'd like to think we should be able to do God's will. We haven't though and yet it still worked out perfectly through his will. Very cool!

 

[Abing]

Abing,

Thank you for two really interesting and provocative questions!

The problem with 'what if' type questions is that any answer that one might give requires speculation by the one who answers. Speculation can be entertaining but it is inherently fiction.

That's true, actually. Sometimes I just tend to let my mind wander and sometimes these thoughts get the better of me lol. But that's right, they'll all just be fiction. Thank you

 

[Abing]

My mind does "What if" in longer succession than your what ifs. lol

What if Saul had obeyed God?
This takes me back a step to
What if Israel had actually let God lead like he asked them to do. Then there would have been no need for a king.

What if Israel had actually listened to God when they took the land? All the other nations occupying that land would have been wiped out, unless the people converted to Jehovah followers.

What if the Israelites had obeyed God in the wilderness? There would have been no Law written on stone tablets and God would have continued with them in the form of a fire-cloud. Added bonus: The trip across the wilderness would have been shorter by roughly 40 years.

What if all people back then followed God? Then God wouldn't have had to tell Abraham to wait 400+ years to inherit a land, because mankind could come and go about all the land without worrying some schmoe is going to kill them simply for walking across a stretch of land.

What if mankind always followed God? There would have been no flood, Noah would have never needed to make a boat, we'd all be speaking the same language, and walking with God in the evening around a very huge Garden of Eden, naked and doing what we're supposed to be doing -- enjoying God forever.

And yet the Bible is a continuing story of God, how men won't follow him in our own will, but he was gracious enough to take on the rightful punishment of some, and does and will reign forever with his people because of that.

In reality the Bible is a long history of men not obeying God and how God has dealt with that in the most gracious of way. We are the adulterer, but our husband has forgiven and loved us of his will.

I'd like to think we should be able to do God's will. We haven't though and yet it still worked out perfectly through his will. Very cool!

Yes, amen! I used to think of God's sovereignty in a way that, even the bad things, He willed to happen. Very contrary to the God I know now. And oftentimes, what amazes me is that, even in our continuous disobedience, He has so many plan Bs. And they're all as, I think, as good as the original plan. Thank you for sharing.

 

[ukok102nak]

What if that mighty angel who once considered to be the morning star
wasn't corrupted to the point that he became Lucifer ( name given by the empire )

:ty:

 

[Joidevivre]

No "what ifs" with God. He knows the heart of everyone He has ever put in any position, and it has all worked out according to His great purpose and will.

I used to think "What if I had not married the man I did? He can be such a difficult husband at times." Now in looking back, I see that it DID work out according to God's great purpose for both of our lives.

 

[pwrnJC]

GOOD insight! Yes, without a doubt, this is a case in which GOD already knew the outcome and allowed Samuel to speak the TRUTH....yes...King Saul did have a choice....but GOD knew Saul's heart. The outward expression of repentence and subjection was just a show for the masses...Inwardly, Saul was on a guilt trip and responded accordingly. God allowed man's blunder to be used ultimately for the good of all by allowing the lineage of David to fulfill a prophetic event.
It also makes me wonder now what if Pharoah had of listened to Moses and realized that Jehovah was more powerful than Ra, their god for the moment. What if Pharoah had NOT chased after the Hebrew children. I guess that Charleston Heston would have not become famous in the making of the movie "The Ten Commandments". lol

 

[Stephen63]

So, I'd like to hear your views on this. See on the context below, God would have established the kingdom if Saul kept the commandment of the Lord.

1 Samuel 13:11-14 (KJV)
11 And Samuel said, What hast thou done? And Saul said, Because I saw that the people were scattered from me, and that thou camest not within the days appointed, and that the Philistines gathered themselves together at Michmash;
12 Therefore said I, The Philistines will come down now upon me to Gilgal, and I have not made supplication unto the Lord: I forced myself therefore, and offered a burnt offering.
13 And Samuel said to Saul, Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the Lord thy God, which he commanded thee: for now would the Lord have established thy kingdom upon Israel for ever.
14 But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the Lord hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the Lord hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the Lord commanded thee.

*Emphasis added*

What's interesting to me, which isn't written in the bible, is what would have happened if:

A) Saul didn't disobey God. Would David still be chosen as king, or would it have been Jonathan?
B) Saul asked forgiveness and repented. Would there have been any changes in the kingdom of Israel?

Sorry Abing, but that would have never happened...... God knew it wouldn't from the very beginning.

Note the scripture:
Isaiah 46:9-11 (NASB) [SUP]9 [/SUP]"Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, [SUP]10[/SUP]Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure'; [SUP]11 [/SUP]Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it.

God foreknew Saul would fail..... He was a lesson to Israel because they wanted a great king like everybody else..... instead of Him. God even put a new heart in him, & he still failed.

Jesus did the same thing when He chose Judas:
John 6:70-71 (NASB) [SUP]70 [/SUP]Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?" [SUP]71 [/SUP]Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.
Jesus knew what Judas was capable of when He chose him. It was part of His plan. He counted on Judas to fulfill it.

Man cannot change the course of God's plan no matter what.

 

[dcontroversal]

Instead of Jesus sitting on the throne of David he would have sat on the throne of Saul!

 

[Gr8grace]

Sorry Abing, but that would have never happened...... God knew it wouldn't from the very beginning.

Note the scripture:
Isaiah 46:9-11 (NASB) [SUP]9 [/SUP]"Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, [SUP]10[/SUP]Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure'; [SUP]11 [/SUP]Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it.

God foreknew Saul would fail..... He was a lesson to Israel because they wanted a great king like everybody else..... instead of Him. God even put a new heart in him, & he still failed.

Jesus did the same thing when He chose Judas:
John 6:70-71 (NASB) [SUP]70 [/SUP]Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?" [SUP]71 [/SUP]Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.
Jesus knew what Judas was capable of when He chose him. It was part of His plan. He counted on Judas to fulfill it.

Man cannot change the course of God's plan no matter what.

Yeah, its like someone saying that we can lose salvation.

 

[Stephen63]

Yeah, its like someone saying that we can lose salvation.

1 Samuel 10:5-11 (KJV) [SUP]5 [/SUP]After that thou shalt come to the hill of God, where is the garrison of the Philistines: and it shall come to pass, when thou art come thither to the city, that thou shalt meet a company of prophets coming down from the high place with a psaltery, and a tabret, and a pipe, and a harp, before them; and they shall prophesy: [SUP]6 [/SUP]And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man. [SUP]7 [/SUP]And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And thou shalt go down before me to Gilgal; and, behold, I will come down unto thee, to offer burnt offerings, and to sacrifice sacrifices of peace offerings: seven days shalt thou tarry, till I come to thee, and shew thee what thou shalt do. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And it came to pass, when all that knew him beforetime saw that, behold, he prophesied among the prophets, then the people said one to another, What is this that is come unto the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets?

Saul was chosen by God, given a new heart, & still failed.

2 Timothy 4:10 (NASB) for Demas, having loved this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica; Crescens has gone to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia.

God doesn't choose who succeeds or fails..... But He abundantly blesses the fruitful..... you know, those that does His will?
John 15:5-8 (NASB) [SUP]5 [/SUP]"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. [SUP]6[/SUP]"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. [SUP]7 [/SUP]"If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. [SUP]8 [/SUP]"My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.

Please don't start this.....

 

[Abing]

Oh no, please not that. We're all tired of that.

I find it more interesting though, to get people's insight on God's sovereignty but that's for another thread.

 

[Kaycie]

Just as Jacob got the blessing instead of Esau, yes, King Saul would have been blessed instead of David. But might I add that God knows everything that is going to happen before it happens. And also, do we miss out on blessings from God because we disobey Him? Food for thought.

 

[Dan58]

What's interesting to me, which isn't written in the bible, is what would have happened if:

A) Saul didn't disobey God. Would David still be chosen as king, or would it have been Jonathan?
B) Saul asked forgiveness and repented. Would there have been any changes in the kingdom of Israel?

No reason to replace Saul if he had remained obedient.. I personally believe Saul could have been forgiven if he had repented, just as King David was forgiven later.. Since David was younger, he may have been chosen to replace Saul after he had died of old age anyway. Its all speculation of course, I don't know what I'm doing tomorrow, let alone what God may have done 3000 years ago