saved by Justification alone?

[gotime]

Thanx all for your answers so far.

Some answers I will be looking into more as they use texts I have not used. great stuff.

Many use Abraham as an example and rightly so as the Bible promotes Him as an example and it is said of Abraham:

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

while clearly Abraham doing these things did not save him it is evident from the life of Abraham that obedience was directly connected with true faith. Thus James says:

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Paul said this:

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

And again:

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is justified from sin.

So clearly just by these few verses we learn that death to self and a new life in the Spirit is part and parcel of Justification.

But that Justification is by Faith no one can contend as it is written:

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

So Paul makes it clear this is about faith in God not of works. But James says Abraham was justified by works. in other words Faith comes first and works follow that faith.

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

So we see that Justification is more than a label but rather is a reality. not only have past sins been forgiven in Christ but they are made just by Christ.

 

[Least]

I notice whenever people talk about Abraham's faith, they never quote anything about HOW HE HAD TO PROVE TO GOD HE HAD IT.

For example:
Genesis 22:12-18 (KJV) [SUP]12 [/SUP]And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen. [SUP]15 [/SUP]And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, [SUP]16 [/SUP]And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: [SUP]17 [/SUP]That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; [SUP]18 [/SUP]And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Hebrews 11:8-10 (KJV) [SUP]8 [/SUP]By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. [SUP]9 [/SUP]By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: [SUP]10 [/SUP]For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Abraham's faith wouldn't allow him to sit on his butt in Haran. He had to prove his faith to receive the promises & God's covenant to him. As spiritual heirs of faithful Abraham, so do we.

James 2:17 (KJV) Even so faith, if it hath not works (evidence), is dead, being alone.
[HR][/HR]James 2:20 (KJV) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works(evidence)is dead?
[HR][/HR]James 2:26 (KJV) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works(evidence)is dead also. [HR][/HR]Hebrews 11:1 (KJV) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (read whole chapter)

Great verses!

James 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
James 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
James 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Isaiah 43:2 When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.

Another theme that is found throughout the word.

 

[Stephen63]

As long as you know salvation is first then sanctification.

As long as you know the just shall LIVE by a LIFE of proven faith, we can agree.

 

[FreeNChrist]

As long as you know the just shall LIVE by a LIFE of proven faith, we can agree.

Proven to who?

 

[Stephen63]

Do you really believe God needed proof of Abrahams faith? Or ours?

Do I have to put my previous post in font size 7 & color it in purple just for you to read what God Himself said?
And to the rest of you naysayers..... I don't need to prove myself over & over to you just to receive mocking & jeers. That's the Holy Spirit's job to convince, not mine.

 

[gotime]

As long as you know the just shall LIVE by a LIFE of proven faith, we can agree.

could I suggest something friend? I have often said what you have said just now and I know what you mean.

But may I suggest that "proven" is not the best word. Many read it and will not see what you are trying to say. Rather "evidenced" faith.

The works of obedience are fruits of faith in God. Abraham for example did not obey to prove his faith all though his obedience did indeed prove his faith. But rather He obeyed not to prove but simply because he had faith. complete trust in God.

I know that is what you mean but the word prove does not go down well in this place.

 

[gotime]

The beauty of true faith is it frees us from sin. That we are now empowered by the almighty God to obey. When God gives command faith is the key to enable one to do as directed.

 

[KennethC]

Do you really believe God needed proof of Abrahams faith? Or ours?

I have you on ignore but saw this responded to by another and had to reply...................


Who is the one that tested Abraham's faith here, God or man ???

 

[dcontroversal]

I have you on ignore but saw this responded to by another and had to reply...................


Who is the one that tested Abraham's faith here, God or man ???

Abraham had saving faith the day he believed God and left for the promise land....the test of Isaac was not for salvation....he BELIEVED GOD AND IT WAS PUT TO HIS ACCOUNT FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HE WAS JUSTIFIED....OF COURSE WORKERS FOR SALVATION DONT BELIEVE IN FAITH, but rather in themselves and what they do!

 

[seed_time_harvest]

I notice whenever people talk about Abraham's faith, they never quote anything about HOW HE HAD TO PROVE TO GOD HE HAD IT.

Do you really believe God needed proof of Abrahams faith? Or ours?

Romans 4:1-2
king James version(KJV)

1.)What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2.)For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Do I have to put my previous post in font size 7 & color it in purple just for you to read what God Himself said?
And to the rest of you naysayers..... I don't need to prove myself over & over to you just to receive mocking & jeers. That's the Holy Spirit's job to convince, not mine.

Lets think about this. Do you really think that the omniscient, all knowing Creator of everything that is, needs "proof" of anything??

 

[FreeNChrist]

I have you on ignore but saw this responded to by another and had to reply...................


Who is the one that tested Abraham's faith here, God or man ???

I prefer it when you ignore me, don't stop now.

 

[dcontroversal]

I prefer it when you ignore me, don't stop now.

Amen to that..much less ignorance and foolishness to deal with!

He is such a good Christian...has me on ignore as well..does not hurt my feelings one iota!

 

[crossnote]

Thanx all for your answers so far.

Some answers I will be looking into more as they use texts I have not used. great stuff.

Many use Abraham as an example and rightly so as the Bible promotes Him as an example and it is said of Abraham:

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

while clearly Abraham doing these things did not save him it is evident from the life of Abraham that obedience was directly connected with true faith. Thus James says:

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Paul said this:

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

And again:

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is justified from sin.

So clearly just by these few verses we learn that death to self and a new life in the Spirit is part and parcel of Justification.

But that Justification is by Faith no one can contend as it is written:

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

So Paul makes it clear this is about faith in God not of works. But James says Abraham was justified by works. in other words Faith comes first and works follow that faith.

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

So we see that Justification is more than a label but rather is a reality. not only have past sins been forgiven in Christ but they are made just by Christ.

there are two aspects to justification, read post 17.
Some of the verses that deal with the vindication aspect (as in James) would mean salvation is by works,if that were the only aspect. But many passages make it clear it is not by works but grace. Context makes all the difference.

 

[JUSTNE1]

Lets think about this. Do you really think that the omniscient, all knowing Creator of everything that is, needs "proof" of anything??

We are Justified/saved/chosen before we were even born. No proof etc ( this is Pride and nonsense). We all know verses that clarify this..eg through Isaac will your seed be blessed, works based faith is no faith as we would be relying on ourselves and nullify the cross.

People may say we prove our faith by our works, but to who?? Ourselves?? God already knows the heart and has pre ordained our work.

The problem is the books of James and Hebrews which specify conditional Grace. This is why they have been disputed for centuries (along with Jude and the real reason for Revelation).

Blessings

 

[FreeNChrist]

Some of the verses that deal with the vindication aspect (as in James) would mean salvation is by works,if that were the only aspect. But many passages make it clear it is not by works but grace. Context makes all the difference.

And what is the context of those James passages?

 

[KennethC]

Again who was testing Abraham's faith here God or man ???


I also said nothing about it being a salvation issue !!!

 

[FreeNChrist]

Again who was testing Abraham's faith here God or man ???

I also said nothing about it being a salvation issue !!!

I'd answer, but I'm ignoring you.

 

[crossnote]

And what is the context of those James passages?

The context in James is "show me your faith", our faith is vindicated (this sense of justified) by our works...it is obviously not in the salvific sense of justification (declared righteous by God on account of Christ).

 

[Gr8grace]

The context in James is "show me your faith", our faith is vindicated (this sense of justified) by our works...it is obviously not in the salvific sense of justification (declared righteous by God on account of Christ).

Not many believers study enough to see this distinction brother. Your spot on.