Ananias and Sapphira

ladylynn · Oct 14, 2015

This short video is about Ananias and Sapphira and that they were infiltrators in the church seeking to cause hurt., and how God dealt with those who seek to hurt the church. For many years I was taught they were believers and this is how God will deal with believers in church today.

The reason I do not believe these two were believers is because Jesus already took the judgment of Christians under the new covenant of Grace. Why and how could God seek to judge the believer yet again when Jesus already paid for our sins? And yet many say that God will keep on pouring out the judgment on the church. They say that because they have not heard about, or understand the new covenant relationship the church has with God NOW because of Jesus.

I so enjoy the way Pastor Joseph Prince put the question out there that has been asked and then answers it clearly with Scripture. Also getting into how Jesus is the Good Shepherd who leads the sheep., protects the sheep. Doesn't DRIVE the sheep.,but the sheep follow Him., He leads and the sheep follow. The rod in truth is used to beat off the wolves and protect the sheep not to be used ON the sheep. Again, many say that the rod is used for hitting on the sheep., even using it to mean a rod for beating in correction. NO. But yet that is how I was taught to see the Good Shepherd and how it is still being taught by people today. These are issues that need to be addressed by believers and answered IN LIGHT of Scripture.

God is not out to 'get us' or 'catch us'.and then punish us. Punishment has been paid

I use JP message here because I was hoping to draw out some discussion about how God is dealing with His church under a new covenant and no longer is dealing with believers through the law of Moses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQlO4tXZ4M

crossnote · Oct 14, 2015

I don't see why they couldn't be believers, it's not as if they were condemn to hell.
Their discipline was an example for the Church.

How would you handle this passage?

shotgunner · Oct 14, 2015

crossnote said:

1 Corinthians 11:29-32 KJV[29] For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. [30] For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. [31] For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. [32] But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

In these verses Paul tells us exactly what unworthily means. It means not discerning the Lord's body. Unworthily does not mean being in sin as many interpret it. This is upheld when we consider the context where Paul admonishes the church " ,What, do you not have houses to eat and drink in? One is drunk, and another is hungry." We clearly see that these were coming together for a party and had no notion of this gathering as a holy ceremony in which we remember the Lord's death.

Jesus even tells us in Matthew that this cup is representing his blood and is for the remission of sin. I find no logic that some denominations would refuse believers the cup for the remission of sins, if the believer has sin. To me that's like refusing the cure to those who have sickness.

Is · Oct 14, 2015

Could it be that they had become a born again followers (predestination) but had chosen (free-will) to cheat the Church.

crossnote · Oct 14, 2015

shotgunner said:

1 Corinthians 11:29-32 KJV[29] For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. [30] For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. [31] For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. [32] But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

In these verses Paul tells us exactly what unworthily means. It means not discerning the Lord's body. Unworthily does not mean being in sin as many interpret it. This is upheld when we consider the context where Paul admonishes the church " ,What, do you not have houses to eat and drink in? One is drunk, and another is hungry." We clearly see that these were coming together for a party and had no notion of this gathering as a holy ceremony in which we remember the Lord's death.

Jesus even tells us in Matthew that this cup is representing his blood and is for the remission of sin. I find no logic that some denominations would refuse believers the cup for the remission of sins, if the believer has sin. To me that's like refusing the cure to those who have sickness.

You missed my point. I used 1Cor 11 to show believers can get sick and die for disobedience...not to talk about the Lord's Supper.

notuptome · Oct 14, 2015

I see no reason to conclude that they were not Christians. Does not the scripture teach that the branch that bears no fruit is cut off? God will destroy the body that He might preserve the soul.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

crossnote · Oct 14, 2015

shotgunner said:

1 Corinthians 11:29-32 KJV[29] For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. [30] For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. [31] For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. [32] But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

In these verses Paul tells us exactly what unworthily means. It means not discerning the Lord's body. Unworthily does not mean being in sin as many interpret it. This is upheld when we consider the context where Paul admonishes the church " ,What, do you not have houses to eat and drink in? One is drunk, and another is hungry." We clearly see that these were coming together for a party and had no notion of this gathering as a holy ceremony in which we remember the Lord's death.

Jesus even tells us in Matthew that this cup is representing his blood and is for the remission of sin. I find no logic that some denominations would refuse believers the cup for the remission of sins, if the believer has sin. To me that's like refusing the cure to those who have sickness.

they were getting drunk, leaving no food for others, in short selfish..not discerning the Body of Christ is made up of fellow believers.

shotgunner · Oct 14, 2015

crossnote said:

I don't see it as God causing sickness or death because of disobedience. I see it as them not recognizing their covenant and because of that, they can become weak or sickly.

KennethC · Oct 14, 2015

They tried to deceive the Holy Spirit (blasphemy) by holding back a portion for themselves and lying, therefore they were struck dead for this.

Show me please one scripture that says God strike's down a person in unrepented deliberate sin to save there soul, that has not been twisted to say this ???

Matthew 7:9, John 15:2, Acts 5:1-11, and 1 Corinthians 5 does not.........I am still waiting for another to prove the striking a person dead to save the soul because James 5:19-20 clearly refutes that !!!

notuptome · Oct 14, 2015

KennethC said:

Who is your god?

19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

James says you will save a soul from death not the body.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ladylynn · Oct 14, 2015

shotgunner said:

Morning., having morning coffee and seeing some of the responses. Am so glad because again, Christians forget that we HAVE ALREADY BEEN JUDGED. So the verses in 1 Cor.11 MUST and NEED to be interpreted in light of that amazing truth Crossnote., it is an amazing revelation for the believer to walk in.

Yes., I agree with you shotgunner as usual., the reason believers become weak and sickly is because they forget they have already been cleansed. Many believers fall into problems because we attempt to walk outside of grace and that is when we fall. That is when satan gets an advantage over us.

I will be back to post the verse about how the believer having 'forgotten they were cleansed' is the danger 1st and foremost for us as Christians. Blessings.

T_Laurich · Oct 14, 2015

God seems to be very set on the teaching that the Holy Spirit is Holy and should not be tainted... Or messed with...

Kinda like Moses did everything perfect but when he stuck the rock he was not allowed into the promised land...

This topic gets onto a huge topic of salvation, and whether or not you can lose your salvation...
I think they did this for two reasons... 1 it is stated that Satan entered their hearts... 2 they lusted after themselves...

Throughout the entire Gospel, you find people believing in Christ and wanting to sell all they have, or give up all they have for Christ...
They no longer care about this world, or what they have, or how they are perceived... They only want Christ... A great example would be Zacchaeuss...

Anniass and Saphira showed the exact opposite, they showed a Joel Olsteen type of approach... Use the banner of being a Christian to get what you want out of the world and men...

I believe that is why they were killed to set an example to everyone who reads the bible, of an event that is going to happen. (Foreshadowing the lake of fire).

ladylynn · Oct 14, 2015

crossnote said:

I'm sorry this is so long crossnote, some of it is commentary. Did you listen to even the first part of the video clip?? that will answer some of your first question.

I've brought up the communion issue in threads here before because just like you, these verses would seem like they are meant for the believer to send fear. We are so conditioned to fear judgment from God that we find it hard to see Him as our Good Shepherd who gave His life for us. If He gave us the best gift, why do we find it so difficult to take the lesser ones from Him?

Again, taking the main truth to be Jesus already took all the judgment for our sin on Himself and knowing we are no longer condemned with the world is essential for us believers. And many Christians do not have this assurance and do look for God to strike them. This is when satan has an advantage over the Christian. Like he did in the garden when he tempted Eve to think God was not a good God and would withhold some good thing from her and Adam. The enemy still uses this lie on believers today and so many give up their rightful place as loved sons and daughters not believing God LOVES them so much and has given them all things pertaining to life and godliness.

I'll use some Bible commentary here but mostly consider the end of the commentary. I do think when believers do not walk in grace, they make themselves open to the enemy. I think many of us miss out on so much when we don't believe in God's unmerited favor and love for us. When we don't walk in that grace we tend to walk under the law simply because it has been ingrained in us by religion.

1 Corinthians 11:29:If the “unworthily” of this verse and 1 Corinthians 11:27 are interpreted as referring to an individual who is not born again then there is no problem believing that this word is used in the sense of eternal damnation in the lake of fire. However, anyone who believes that a born-again Christian can partake of communion “unworthily” would have to take this word in the sense of condemnation, as used in 1 Corinthians 11:34.
It is much easier to harmonize these passages with Paul’s other teachings on grace if it is understood that he was speaking of a “professor” but not a “possessor” of salvation who takes communion and is therefore held guilty of the body and blood of Jesus (1 Corinthians 11:27).
Note 11 at 1 Corinthians 11:29:
If the unworthiness that Paul spoke of in 1 Corinthians 11:27 and 29 is referring to a person not being born again (see notes 7 and 8 at 1 Corinthians 11:27 and note 10 at 1 Corinthians 11:29), then the meaning of “not discerning the Lord’s body” is simple. He was saying that any person who is not a Christian and partakes of communion is not making a proper judgment of what it takes to be a part of the body of Christ and is therefore guilty for professing a lie (see note 5 at 1 Corinthians 11:26).
However, some have interpreted this verse as speaking of Christians who don’t discern the healing that was provided for them through the stripes that Jesus took on His body (Isaiah 53:5, Matthew 8:17, and 1 Peter 2:24). The reasoning is that if they don’t understand or believe that healing is a part of the atonement of Jesus, then they won’t walk in health. Therefore, many would be weak and sickly, or even dead, as a result.
This reasoning is certainly accurate, but the context suggests that that interpretation is not correct for this verse. Paul was speaking of non-Christians who partake of communion and are therefore guilty of the body and blood of the Lord (see note 8 at 1 Corinthians 11:27). These non-Christians who are professing to be a part of the body of Christ are damning themselves, and this is evident in the fact that many of them are sick and some are even dead. Healing doesn’t work for them, because they haven’t accepted the covenant.

12 at 1 Corinthians 11:31:
This verse is very problematic for those who think Paul was speaking of Christians who have some sort of unworthiness as they take communion and are therefore being judged by the Lord with sickness and death. However, if you interpret the unworthiness mentioned in 1 Corinthians 11:27 and 29 as referring to non-Christians taking communion (see notes 7 and 8 at 1 Corinthians 11:27 and note 10 at 1 Corinthians 11:29), then this is very simple.
Those who judge themselves sinner and put faith in Jesus experience salvation, and they will not be judged. That judgment was placed on Jesus. 1 Corinthians 11:32 says that when we (Christians) are judged, we are chastened but never condemned (or damned, 1 Corinthians 11:29), as non-Christians will be (see note 13 at 1 Corinthians 11:32).

ladylynn · Oct 14, 2015

T_Laurich said:

Well, again., that is looking for God's judgement to fall... and it ALREADY fell on Jesus on our behalf. As believers., we are waiting for the other shoe to drop sort of speak., or for the other hammer to drop. Living a Christian life like this is not right.
God is not out to get us or catch us in some sin. He has already redeemed us and set us apart. No more fear of condemnation and death. Jesus took the sting of death. 1 Cor.15:56 The sting of death is sin., the strength of sin IS THE LAW. Why do Christians keep preaching law and not grace? Because religion has so conditioned us to think like the rest of man made religion.

They don't understand what grace is. They cannot comprehend it because it is not man made. Grace is so much more than not getting what we deserve. Being a son is about inheritance. About standing and position. Don't allow the enemy to steal your position, your sonship. Jesus paid a great price for our redemption. To walk in it while we are here on earth is vital to winning the battle. Because when we walk in the finished work of Jesus, we are already walking in victory.

crossnote · Oct 14, 2015

Lynn, you never directly addressed my point.
Ananias and Saphirra very well could have ben believers.
1Cor 11 showed that some believers had already died.
God chastises those he loves...even Paul told the Corinthians to let that man go for the destruction of the flesh that the soul may be saved.
This is not a lolipop walk.

Willie-T · Oct 14, 2015

shotgunner said:

1 Corinthians 11:29-32 KJV[29] For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. [30] For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. [31] For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. [32] But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

In these verses Paul tells us exactly what unworthily means. It means not discerning the Lord's body. Unworthily does not mean being in sin as many interpret it. This is upheld when we consider the context where Paul admonishes the church " ,What, do you not have houses to eat and drink in? One is drunk, and another is hungry." We clearly see that these were coming together for a party and had no notion of this gathering as a holy ceremony in which we remember the Lord's death.

Jesus even tells us in Matthew that this cup is representing his blood and is for the remission of sin. I find no logic that some denominations would refuse believers the cup for the remission of sins, if the believer has sin. To me that's like refusing the cure to those who have sickness.

Bull's-eye!

crossnote · Oct 14, 2015

shotgunner said:

Whatever, not recognizing their Covenant still sounds like disobedience to me.

ladylynn · Oct 14, 2015

crossnote said:

I thought I did address this crossnote. In my personal observance about living the Christian life., I see a major lack of us believers being taught how to live under the new covenant of grace. We are instead straddling the fence between the old and new covenant. And our faith walk is not successful when we do that. When Abraham and Sarah had Isaac, God said it was time for the bond woman and her son to go. Law and grace cannot co-exist together. This is a principle set all through the Bible if we only look.

Lukewarmness is about law and grace together and it gets spewed out. You know the verse in Rev. Religion has always given credit for man sinning blatantly as that being disgusting to God when it is REALLY man taking credit for God's grace in his life that is insulting to the cross.

Jesus already paid for our sin debt. Why do we believers insist on still paying??? And then boasting of how we follow the law and have good lives because of it?? We have good lives ONLY because of Jesus. The unredeemed have good lives too when they live under the law and do what is right. They don't lie and cheat., they don't commit adultery., they go to church., they have a form of godliness. They are religious. They follow the 10 commandments as best they can. But are they saved????

What sets us apart from the un believer????? Please consider this question and tell me are we called as believers to just be better law keepers?? Is that the only difference? Is that our focus?? For many, it certainly is. "And many are weak and sickly among you and many sleep" No, it is not a lollipop walk.

(Isaiah 53:5, Matthew 8:17, and 1 Peter 2:24).

KennethC · Oct 14, 2015

notuptome said:

Apostle James here is confirming what the Lord said in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31), that we are to be obedient in the faith while we walk now. After one dies it is to late to be saved as this parable shows, but yet the point of putting a person to death who is living in disobedience (deliberate sin) to save their soul would contradict that parable.

Paul even says those who do not obey the gospel will be punished in the fire (2 Thessalonians 1:8).

Walking in continuous disobedience to the Lord is clearly shown not to lead to salvation, and nowhere does the bible say a person will be put to death in this disobedience to save their soul. It clearly says the Lord chastises us for correction so that we will not be condemned with the rest of the world.

ladylynn · Oct 14, 2015

KennethC said:

Another idea that you reminded me of KennethC is we are chastened in order to LEARN.. If God kills us off., "how to learn???" We are not supposed to leave our brains off at the door. The HolySpirit wants to engage us in thought and to KNOW what we believe and WHY. We have to KNOW God is for us by His love for us. We have to have assurance that we are loved and accepted IN THE BELOVED. God does not kill of His kids. Jesus brought us grace and truth. We make it our life's learning to find out about what that means. Amen!

Ananias and Sapphira

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