Apocrypha

[mailmandan]

[/URL]walk in the ways of the Lord and you shall live, thats what it teaches.

Once again you did not answer my question. If you can't answer this simple question then there is no point in discussing this any further with you. For the third time - *Are you using this text to teach justification by works of the law/salvation by works? *in contradiction to Romans 3:22-28; Galatians 2:16. ​YES OR NO.

 

[mailmandan]

I find that many here paste and copy. Someone must have a Whole file because all he does is paste and copy.

This article thoroughly answered your question so why no cut and paste it? Joe Mizzi, who operates the Justforcatholics website is a former Roman Catholic himself and knows what he is talking about.

I'm asking Angela why she thinks CAtholics are not Christians.
I'm interested in what she thinks, not Catholic Answers.

Where is Angela? I'm sure that her answer will not be much different to the answer you received from Catholic Answers.

I'm also interested in what YOU think, MMD, but not Catholic Answers, or whatever it's called.

My answer lines up with the same answer I shared with you from Catholic Answers. Now even though there may be some Roman Catholics who are Christians IN SPITE of what the Roman Catholic church teaches about the plan of salvation and NOT BECAUSE what they teach, sadly, many Roman Catholics were born into their religion and have never honestly examined their faith through the lens of Scripture. From infancy they are taught that salvation comes through their church as they merit saving grace through the sacraments and perform religious rituals and good works to be justified and re-justified. Roman Catholicism "adds works" to the gospel of grace. Roman Catholic salvation is based on Jesus plus Mary, faith plus works, grace plus merit, Scripture plus tradition and the blood of Jesus plus purgatory. Many Roman Catholics do not realize that any addition to the gospel denies the sufficiency of Christ's finished work of redemption. Any addition to the gospel nullifies the saving grace of God, which is the only means by which God saves sinners. Roman Catholics, who are victims of this deception, need to be evangelized with the true gospel of grace. Being "religious" but not right with God does not = Christian.

I could read Google myself without coming here.

How about we use our own words in speaking about God and the bible?

I can use my own words or copy and paste an article. Either way, as long as the truth is being shared from God's Word, that's what truly matters.

Catholics might have doctrine that we don't agree with,
This does NOT make them unchristian.

So if someone perverts the gospel of grace and is not a genuine believer, they are a Christian anyway just because they attend the Roman Catholic church or some other church?

They teach Christ and they teach salvation through Christ, just like we do.
Do not all churches have doctrine we may not agree with?
Don't we all like some preacher over another?

They don't teach salvation through CHRIST ALONE. As I already said, they teach salvation through Jesus plus Mary, faith plus works, grace plus merit, Scripture plus tradition and the blood of Jesus plus purgatory. Salvation through Christ + works is not salvation through Christ.

I believe it's very unfair to call our Catholic brothers in Christ unchristian.

Catholicism perverts the gospel of grace so why would I call Roman Catholics my brothers in Christ? Keep in mind that I grew up in the Roman Catholic church and never once heard a clear gospel presentation and just like so many Roman Catholics, I did not truly believe the gospel but trusted in my works to save me. I did not become a Christian until I received Christ through faith after I left the Roman Catholic church.

 

[jaybird88]

Once again you did not answer my question. If you can't answer this simple question then there is no point in discussing this any further with you. For the third time - *Are you using this text to teach justification by works of the law/salvation by works? *in contradiction to Romans 3:22-28; Galatians 2:16. ​YES OR NO.

no, now back to that scripture you keep running from.
Ezekiel teaches walk in the ways of the Lord and you shall live. this is the same as Sarach. both teach same thing, how can you have same teaching true in Ez and false in Sa? makes very little sense to me.

 

[mailmandan]

no, now back to that scripture you keep running from.
Ezekiel teaches walk in the ways of the Lord and you shall live. this is the same as Sarach. both teach same thing, how can you have same teaching true in Ez and false in Sa? makes very little sense to me.

Finally! "no". Thank you. I'm not running from the scripture in Ezekiel. What are you talking about true teaching in Ezekiel and false in Sa? As I showed you in post #40:

The book of Sirach teaches that almsgiving makes atonement for sin. “Whoso honoureth his father maketh an atonement for his sins...Water will quench a flaming fire; and alms maketh an atonement for sin” (Sirach 3:3, 30).

Now it is the constant teaching of the Law that atonement is made by a blood sacrifice. For example Leviticus 17:11 states: “For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.”

But Sirach teaches that honouring parents and giving alms atones for sin. Sirach teaches that a person can be justified by another method apart from substitutionary sacrifice.

Sirach teaches justification by the works of the law (honouring parents, etc.) which is directly refuted by the Bible: “A man is not justified by the works of the law” (Galatians 2:16). In fact, the apostle Paul goes as far as saying that “if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain” (verse 21). If we could obtain righteousness by such things as obeying the commandment and doing charity, there would have been no need for Christ dying on the cross.

 

[jaybird88]

Finally! "no". Thank you. I'm not running from the scripture in Ezekiel. What are you talking about true teaching in Ezekiel and false in Sa? As I showed you in post #40:

The book of Sirach teaches that almsgiving makes atonement for sin. “Whoso honoureth his father maketh an atonement for his sins...Water will quench a flaming fire; and alms maketh an atonement for sin” (Sirach 3:3, 30).

almsgiving is helping those in need. its a misunderstanding to think this means giving money to the church. atonement is being in harmony with the Most High. EZ teaches walking in the ways of the Lord and you will live, SA teaches helping those in need turns you from sin and to the Most High. if your focused on good works for the Lord your not focused on sinfull ways of this world.

Now it is the constant teaching of the Law that atonement is made by a blood sacrifice. For example Leviticus 17:11 states: “For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.”

can people make atonement when they live a life of wickedness, make a sacrifice, and step right back in to their wicked life?

But Sirach teaches that honouring parents and giving alms atones for sin. Sirach teaches that a person can be justified by another method apart from substitutionary sacrifice.

does SA teach these are the only ways or 2 of many ways? with due respect your taking a good teaching, twisting it to justify labeling a book as false, a book that has teachings of Jesus that can only be found in SA and now where else. IMO i dont think Jesus direct us to these books by using teachings that He knows His followers are going to research.

Sirach teaches justification by the works of the law (honouring parents, etc.) which is directly refuted by the Bible: “A man is not justified by the works of the law” (Galatians 2:16). In fact, the apostle Paul goes as far as saying that “if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain” (verse 21). If we could obtain righteousness by such things as obeying the commandment and doing charity, there would have been no need for Christ dying on the cross.

we are commanded to honor our parents, follow the Lords commands, such as honor your parents, and you will live. thats what EZ teaches.

 

[mailmandan]

almsgiving is helping those in need. its a misunderstanding to think this means giving money to the church. atonement is being in harmony with the Most High. EZ teaches walking in the ways of the Lord and you will live, SA teaches helping those in need turns you from sin and to the Most High. if your focused on good works for the Lord your not focused on sinfull ways of this world.

The giving of alms is an act of charity toward those less fortunate. The offertory is the traditional moment in Roman Catholic Mass, when alms are collected and alms giving does not atone for sin. In Christian theology, atonement describes how human beings can be reconciled to God through Christ's sacrificial death. Atonement refers to the forgiving or pardoning of sin in general in particular through the death and resurrection of Jesus, enabling the reconciliation between God and mankind. Romans 3:25 - God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood (propitiation)—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished. Walking in the ways of the Lord is descriptive of those in the household of faith. Just as practicing righteousness and not sin is descriptive of children of God and not children of the devil (1 John 3:7-10). The book of Sirach teaches that almsgiving makes atonement for sin. “Whoso honoureth his father maketh an atonement for his sins...Water will quench a flaming fire; and alms maketh an atonement for sin” (Sirach 3:3, 30). That goes beyond what you are saying.

can people make atonement when they live a life of wickedness, make a sacrifice, and step right back in to their wicked life?

That is an oxymoron.

does SA teach these are the only ways or 2 of many ways? with due respect your taking a good teaching, twisting it to justify labeling a book as false, a book that has teachings of Jesus that can only be found in SA and now where else. IMO i dont think Jesus direct us to these books by using teachings that He knows His followers are going to research.

I am not twisting anything. I quoted (Sirach 3:3, 30) and this is an unbiblical teaching. Again, Sirach teaches that honouring parents and giving alms atones for sin. Sirach teaches that a person can be justified by another method apart from substitutionary sacrifice. This is false doctrine and is not inspired by the Holy Spirit. Period.

we are commanded to honor our parents, follow the Lords commands, such as honor your parents, and you will live. thats what EZ teaches.

Ezekiel was written to the house of Israel. Ezekiel 18:30 - “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord God. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live.”

Following the commands of the Lord is the result of a new heart and new spirit and is the fruit of faith, but not the means of our salvation. We are saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9).

 

[jaybird88]

The giving of alms is an act of charity toward those less fortunate. The offertory is the traditional moment in Roman Catholic Mass, when alms are collected and alms giving does not atone for sin. In Christian theology, atonement describes how human beings can be reconciled to God through Christ's sacrificial death. Atonement refers to the forgiving or pardoning of sin in general in particular through the death and resurrection of Jesus, enabling the reconciliation between God and mankind. Romans 3:25 - God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood (propitiation)—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished. Walking in the ways of the Lord is descriptive of those in the household of faith. Just as practicing righteousness and not sin is descriptive of children of God and not children of the devil (1 John 3:7-10). The book of Sirach teaches that almsgiving makes atonement for sin. “Whoso honoureth his father maketh an atonement for his sins...Water will quench a flaming fire; and alms maketh an atonement for sin” (Sirach 3:3, 30). That goes beyond what you are saying.

That is an oxymoron.

I am not twisting anything. I quoted (Sirach 3:3, 30) and this is an unbiblical teaching. Again, Sirach teaches that honouring parents and giving alms atones for sin. Sirach teaches that a person can be justified by another method apart from substitutionary sacrifice. This is false doctrine and is not inspired by the Holy Spirit. Period.

Ezekiel was written to the house of Israel. Ezekiel 18:30 - “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord God. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live.”

your confusing atonement with forgiveness. their not the same and thats where your missing it.

Following the commands of the Lord is the result of a new heart and new spirit and is the fruit of faith, but not the means of our salvation. We are saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9).

i agree and SA does not teach against that, it teaches the same as many other Hebrew bible passages that speak of those that follow the commands of the Most High. no one has an issue with those, like the EZ passage, but an Apocrytha book teaching the exact same thing, its the devil!

 

[FranC]

[QUOTEMailmandan2994056]

This article thoroughly answered your question so why no cut and paste it? Joe Mizzi, who operates the Justforcatholics website is a former Roman Catholic himself and knows what he is talking about.

I'm a former Roman Catholic too. And a well-infomed one to this day. I really like to hear your views, not his. I know what's wrong with the RCC. I just think it's wrong to say they're not Christian. Any Church that beieves in Jesus as Savior is Christian - no matter how wrong their doctrine may be. To say nothing of some dogma.

Where is Angela? I'm sure that her answer will not be much different to the answer you received from Catholic Answers.

Angela ran over to Starbucks!


My answer lines up with the same answer I shared with you from Catholic Answers. Now even though there may be some Roman Catholics who are Christians IN SPITE of what the Roman Catholic church teaches about the plan of salvation and NOT BECAUSE what they teach, sadly, many Roman Catholics were born into their religion and have never honestly examined their faith through the lens of Scripture. From infancy they are taught that salvation comes through their church as they merit saving grace through the sacraments and perform religious rituals and good works to be justified and re-justified. Roman Catholicism "adds works" to the gospel of grace. Roman Catholic salvation is based on Jesus plus Mary, faith plus works, grace plus merit, Scripture plus tradition and the blood of Jesus plus purgatory. Many Roman Catholics do not realize that any addition to the gospel denies the sufficiency of Christ's finished work of redemption. Any addition to the gospel nullifies the saving grace of God, which is the only means by which God saves sinners. Roman Catholics, who are victims of this deception, need to be evangelized with the true gospel of grace. Being "religious" but not right with God does not = Christian.

I agree with you.
Although, if you go to a bible study of theirs NOW, you will be taught Ephesians 2:8 and that works FOLLOW salvation and cannot BE salvation.

Problem is that Catholics do not care to study - just as you've pointed out. This is due to past teaching which was:
Come to Church, confess your sins and you'll be OK.

Having said that, and agreeing to 90% of what you've said, let me say this...
Just because a person is not taught correctly does not make them NOT be Christian. If they go to Church, do their best at bein "good", go to confession (which is a valid confession since it IS taught that God is doing the forgiving and not the priest)
then, even though they are practicing religion and not Christianity as we understand it, I do believe they're saved if they're praying to Jesus. In one Church here by me (all churches here are Catholic BTW) they've relegated all the statues to a small backroom. There's a sign in front of them: "Before praying to your favorite saint...have you remembered to pray to Jesus?"

Yes. I do think things are changing. It'll take a Whole generation however.

I can use my own words or copy and paste an article. Either way, as long as the truth is being shared from God's Word, that's what truly matters.

So if someone perverts the gospel of grace and is not a genuine believer, they are a Christian anyway just because they attend the Roman Catholic church or some other church?

They don't teach salvation through CHRIST ALONE. As I already said, they teach salvation through Jesus plus Mary, faith plus works, grace plus merit, Scripture plus tradition and the blood of Jesus plus purgatory. Salvation through Christ + works is not salvation through Christ.

No. Not through Mary. There's a problem going on right now regarding Mary being a co-redemptrix. With this Pope, I'm not sure how this will go. Many would leave if this happened.... Many would be happy. It's a truly weird situation due to false doctrine... more false doctrine needs to be made.

We do this too though. We tend to mis-interpret scripture to make eternal security be taught. Just an example.

Catholicism perverts the gospel of grace so why would I call Roman Catholics my brothers in Christ? Keep in mind that I grew up in the Roman Catholic church and never once heard a clear gospel presentation and just like so many Roman Catholics, I did not truly believe the gospel but trusted in my works to save me. I did not become a Christian until I received Christ through faith after I left the Roman Catholic church

We each have our story. But all you heard all those years might have contributed.
I agree about the gospel message. I actually complain about this to priests I'm friendly with.
I think it'll happen, but not now.

MMD, IF one is following the truth, even though they don't know it's the truth, I believe their soul is saved.
However, let's remember that it's not up to us to decide who is saved and who isn't. We're just talking here...

 

[mailmandan]

your confusing atonement with forgiveness. their not the same and thats where your missing it.

Atonement comes through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, enabling the reconciliation between God and mankind (and not through alms giving) and forgiveness is received by faith and that is where you're missing it.

i agree and SA does not teach against that, it teaches the same as many other Hebrew bible passages that speak of those that follow the commands of the Most High. no one has an issue with those, like the EZ passage, but an Apocrytha book teaching the exact same thing, its the devil!

Once again, Sirach teaches that a person can be justified by another method apart from substitutionary sacrifice. That is false doctrine which does teach against the truth and is not inspired by the Holy Spirt. Period. The devil is crafty. He loves to mix the truth with lies to make it look more presentable. Even the Book of Mormon has truth in it (although much of it was plagiarized from the KJV of the Bible) mixed with false doctrine that is not inspired by the Holy Sprit, but that does not mean the Book of Mormon is inspired either.

 

[Zmouth]

sorry Fran i didnt mean to ignore you.

Matthew 7:16-20
[SUP]16 [/SUP]By their fruit you will recognize them.[SUP](A)[/SUP] Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?[SUP](B)[/SUP] [SUP]17 [/SUP]Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. [SUP]18 [/SUP]A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.[SUP](C)[/SUP] [SUP]19 [/SUP]Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.[SUP](D)[/SUP] [SUP]20 [/SUP]Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Sirach 27:6-7 (Apocrypha)
[SUP]6 [/SUP][SUP](A)[/SUP]You can tell how well a tree has been cared for by the fruit it bears, and you can tell a person's feelings by the way he expresses himself. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Never praise anyone before you hear him talk; that is the real test.

Matt.. 7:12 - golden rule
[SUP]12 [/SUP]“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
Tobit 4:16
[SUP]16 [/SUP]See thou never do to another what thou wouldst hate to have done to thee by another.

theres a few, thought i had a list of them on this thread already.

Ok speaking of fruit, I just found out today one my peach trees is hysteranthous. You can imagine how devastated I am upon finding out. You know you work so hard growing them and you put your faith in the LORD and try to do that which is good and right in his sight;

23 And when ye shall come into the land, and shall have planted all manner of trees for food, then ye shall count the fruit thereof as uncircumcised: three years shall it be as uncircumcised unto you: it shall not be eaten of.
24 But in the fourth year all the fruit thereof shall be holy to praise the LORD withal.
25 And in the fifth year shall ye eat of the fruit thereof, that it may yield unto you the increase thereof: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19

It wasn't like it was born hysteranthous? But before you even know it, they are out there wearing their blossoms on their limbs without any leaves to cover their nakedness for the whole world to see.

Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

Of course they pick grapes from thornbushes just like the serpent tempted the woman named Eve in the Garden. So if the female wasn't named Eve until after the man and his wife had eaten from the tree in the midst of the garden then what difference if they call the dewberry a grape? (See Gen. 5:2)

As far as figs, consider Numbers 33:54-56

 

[jaybird88]

Atonement comes through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, enabling the reconciliation between God and mankind (and not through alms giving) and forgiveness is received by faith and that is where you're missing it.

and living by what He taught. if what you said were true there would be no reason for Jesus to teach anything at all.

Once again, Sirach teaches that a person can be justified by another method apart from substitutionary sacrifice. That is false doctrine which does teach against the truth and is not inspired by the Holy Spirt. Period. The devil is crafty. He loves to mix the truth with lies to make it look more presentable. Even the Book of Mormon has truth in it (although much of it was plagiarized from the KJV of the Bible) mixed with false doctrine that is not inspired by the Holy Sprit, but that does not mean the Book of Mormon is inspired either.

book of EZ teaches same thing and many other books of the bible.

funny that you reject these books because you dont believe they are inspired word. yet you believe they are uninspired because they go against doctrines of man which is uninspired.

 

[mailmandan]

and living by what He taught. if what you said were true there would be no reason for Jesus to teach anything at all.

book of EZ teaches same thing and many other books of the bible.

funny that you reject these books because you dont believe they are inspired word. yet you believe they are uninspired because they go against doctrines of man which is uninspired.

I reject that the Apocryphal books are inspired and not only because they teach false doctrine, but also for multiple other reasons, as already stated in various posts. I accept the books of the Bible because they are the inspired Word of God. Period.