P
Pilgrim
I think you seriously misunderstand the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.
Let’s get to the bottom of it shall we?
The doctrine of the Trinity is not the doctrine that three Gods are somehow one God. That would be clearly self-contradictory – to say there are three Gods, and these are one God.
In other words the doctrine of the Trinity does not say that
GOD=GOD+GOD+GOD
Neither do Christians claim that there are three persons who are somehow one person. That, again, would be self-contradictory – to assert that there are three persons who are all one person.
In other words the doctrine of the Trinity does not assert that
PERSON= PERSON + PERSON + PERSON
The doctrine of the Trinity does not assert that there are three Gods that are one God or three persons that are one person, but
In other words the doctrine of the Trinity does not say that
GOD=GOD+GOD+GOD
and it does not say that
PERSON= PERSON + PERSON + PERSON
What does the doctrine of the Trinity say then?
The doctrine of the Trinity says that there is one God who is TRI-PERSONAL
In other words the doctrine of the Trinity claims that
GOD= PERSON + PERSON + PERSON
Let me give you analogy often used by Russian Orthodox Church. Think about a chicken Egg for a moment. What chicken Egg consists of? Well it’s consists of three bits namely Shell + Egg white + Yolk. But Egg is not three. Egg is 1. Exactly the same is with God. God is Father + Son + Holy Spirit. But God is not three. God is 1. I hope you get the idea.
Let me give you another analogy (which is slightly more complex)
Think about the soul. What is soul? The soul, or the mind, is not a physical thing – it is an immaterial or spiritual thing, an immaterial substance. What makes the human soul a person? It would seem that the human soul is equipped with rational faculties of intellect and volition which enables it to self-reflect. So the human soul is a person, or is personal, because it is endowed with rational faculties of intellect and volition which enable it to have free will.
Well God is very much like an unembodied soul. When you die and your soul is separated from the body, you go to be with the Lord until the resurrection at the end of history – and you are at that time a disembodied soul. God seem to be very much like an unembodied soul. In fact, as a mental or spiritual substance, God just is, an unembodied soul. He is a soul. We naturally equate a rational soul with a person, since the human souls that we are familiar with in our intercourse with one another are all persons. But the reason that human souls are individual persons is because each soul is equipped with one set of rational faculties which are sufficient for personhood. Each one of us has a set of rational faculties and volitional faculties that are sufficient for being an individual person. But suppose that God is a soul who is endowed with three complete sets of rational cognitive faculties, each of which is sufficient for personhood. Then God – even though he is one soul – would not be one person, but he would be three persons. For God would have three centers of self-consciousness, three centers of intentionality (thinking about things), three centers of volition (freely willing to do things). So God, if he has three complete sets of rational faculties, will have three centers of self-consciousness, intentionality, and will, which seems to be exactly what the doctrine of the Trinity would maintain. God would clearly not be three distinct souls because the cognitive faculties that we are talking about are all properties of the same soul. There is one immaterial substance which is so richly endowed with cognitive faculties that it is sufficient for three persons. So God would be a spiritual substance, or soul, which is tri-personal, in contrast to us, who are individual souls, or beings, each of which is one person.
The idea is that we should start by thinking of God as a soul, just as you are a soul; and when you die, you are a disembodied soul. You are at that time an unembodied consciousness, so you are one thing – you are one immaterial substance. That is what I am inviting you to think about God as. God is an immaterial substance, a mind, just like you are when you are an unembodied soul. But this soul is much more richly endowed with cognitive faculties than you are. You just have one set of cognitive faculties, and therefore you are one person. But I want you to try to imagine a soul that is endowed with three sets of cognitive faculties, each of which is sufficient for personhood – rationality, self-consciousness, and freedom of the will. I think that gets you this idea of one thing, one substance, namely, this soul, that is so richly endowed that it is tri-personal.
So Christians never ever believed that Jesus is the Father or that Father is Jesus. Christians always believed that Jesus and Father are two distinct persons just like Sun and sun-Rays are two distinct things. That’s why Jesus is Father’s Son and that’s why Jesus could pray to Father
Let me read you the creedal statement again:
…we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons nor dividing their essence....
I think you seriously misunderstand the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.
Let’s get to the bottom of it shall we?
The doctrine of the Trinity is not the doctrine that three Gods are somehow one God. That would be clearly self-contradictory – to say there are three Gods, and these are one God.
In other words the doctrine of the Trinity does not say that
GOD=GOD+GOD+GOD
Neither do Christians claim that there are three persons who are somehow one person. That, again, would be self-contradictory – to assert that there are three persons who are all one person.
In other words the doctrine of the Trinity does not assert that
PERSON= PERSON + PERSON + PERSON
The doctrine of the Trinity does not assert that there are three Gods that are one God or three persons that are one person, but
In other words the doctrine of the Trinity does not say that
GOD=GOD+GOD+GOD
and it does not say that
PERSON= PERSON + PERSON + PERSON
What does the doctrine of the Trinity say then?
The doctrine of the Trinity says that there is one God who is TRI-PERSONAL
In other words the doctrine of the Trinity claims that
GOD= PERSON + PERSON + PERSON
Let me give you analogy often used by Russian Orthodox Church. Think about a chicken Egg for a moment. What chicken Egg consists of? Well it’s consists of three bits namely Shell + Egg white + Yolk. But Egg is not three. Egg is 1. Exactly the same is with God. God is Father + Son + Holy Spirit. But God is not three. God is 1. I hope you get the idea.
Let me give you another analogy (which is slightly more complex)
Think about the soul. What is soul? The soul, or the mind, is not a physical thing – it is an immaterial or spiritual thing, an immaterial substance. What makes the human soul a person? It would seem that the human soul is equipped with rational faculties of intellect and volition which enables it to self-reflect. So the human soul is a person, or is personal, because it is endowed with rational faculties of intellect and volition which enable it to have free will.
Well God is very much like an unembodied soul. When you die and your soul is separated from the body, you go to be with the Lord until the resurrection at the end of history – and you are at that time a disembodied soul. God seem to be very much like an unembodied soul. In fact, as a mental or spiritual substance, God just is, an unembodied soul. He is a soul. We naturally equate a rational soul with a person, since the human souls that we are familiar with in our intercourse with one another are all persons. But the reason that human souls are individual persons is because each soul is equipped with one set of rational faculties which are sufficient for personhood. Each one of us has a set of rational faculties and volitional faculties that are sufficient for being an individual person. But suppose that God is a soul who is endowed with three complete sets of rational cognitive faculties, each of which is sufficient for personhood. Then God – even though he is one soul – would not be one person, but he would be three persons. For God would have three centers of self-consciousness, three centers of intentionality (thinking about things), three centers of volition (freely willing to do things). So God, if he has three complete sets of rational faculties, will have three centers of self-consciousness, intentionality, and will, which seems to be exactly what the doctrine of the Trinity would maintain. God would clearly not be three distinct souls because the cognitive faculties that we are talking about are all properties of the same soul. There is one immaterial substance which is so richly endowed with cognitive faculties that it is sufficient for three persons. So God would be a spiritual substance, or soul, which is tri-personal, in contrast to us, who are individual souls, or beings, each of which is one person.
The idea is that we should start by thinking of God as a soul, just as you are a soul; and when you die, you are a disembodied soul. You are at that time an unembodied consciousness, so you are one thing – you are one immaterial substance. That is what I am inviting you to think about God as. God is an immaterial substance, a mind, just like you are when you are an unembodied soul. But this soul is much more richly endowed with cognitive faculties than you are. You just have one set of cognitive faculties, and therefore you are one person. But I want you to try to imagine a soul that is endowed with three sets of cognitive faculties, each of which is sufficient for personhood – rationality, self-consciousness, and freedom of the will. I think that gets you this idea of one thing, one substance, namely, this soul, that is so richly endowed that it is tri-personal.
So Christians never ever believed that Jesus is the Father or that Father is Jesus. Christians always believed that Jesus and Father are two distinct persons just like Sun and sun-Rays are two distinct things. That’s why Jesus is Father’s Son and that’s why Jesus could pray to Father
Let me read you the creedal statement again:
…we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons nor dividing their essence....
Tik, you said it all in equating the begetting of the Son to procreation and failing to distinguish your teaching as referring specifically to the Incarnation.
I have no interest, until you address that, in further dialogue in which you still imply erroneous understanding which nothing I said warrants.
What you think is hardly something that interests me, and the analogies of men hardly nullify the Scriptures posted, so I will leave off discussion of such a sensitive issue until that time you can actually address what I said rather than what you think.
God bless.