Saved by works,not saved by works

[mpaper345]

The Bible says we are saved by works.

The Bible says we are not saved by works.

This seems like a contradiction but it is not.

Do not listen to Calvin or Luther that you do not have to have works but learn the truth.

The Bible says we are saved by grace through faith.That means we have to have faith to be saved.Faith is the substance of things hoped for,the evidence of things not seen.We have to have faith in a kingdom we cannot see because it is spiritual kingdom that we are trying to obtain but there is evidence of those things not seen by the Spirit.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also(James 2:24;26).


The Bible says we have to have works to have faith activated in our lives to be saved.Since we have to have faith to be saved and we have to have works to have faith activated in our lives then we have to have works to be saved.
We have to have works to be saved.

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling(Philippians 2:12).

The Bible says we are to work out our own salvation which means we must participate in our salvation.It is up to us to maintain our salvation and make sure we stay right with God after we are saved.

We have to have works to be saved.This is talking about after we come to Christ and follow Him we have to have works.

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began(2 Timothy 1:9)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast(Ephesians 2:8-9).



We are not saved by works.This is talking about before we come to Christ.It is saying that any works we do trying to get to heaven without confessing Christ as our savior will get us to heaven but only by confessing Christ as our savior then we have to have works to be saved.


False religions and people who do works trying to get to heaven without confessing Christ as their savior will get them to heaven except by confessing Christ as their savior.


We are saved by works is saying after we come to Christ we have to have works to be saved.


We are not saved by works is talking before we come to Christ.Trying to get to heaven by works such as false religions without confessing Christ as our savior.


We are not saved by any works that we do trying to get to heaven without confessing Christ as our savior but we are saved by confessing Christ as our savior then we have to have works to ensure our salvation.


This clears up the seemingly contradiction we are saved by works,not saved by works to show that it is not a contradiction.


Matt

[GraceBeUntoYou]

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law." -- Galatians 5:22-23

What you must realize is that the works are of the Holy Spirit, of God, working in and through you, in this regards, they are not of yourselves, but are of God. James isn't saying that you must do works to get to heaven, he's saying that as a result of your faith, you will bear good fruits, and those fruits are of the Spirit. Your faith will show evidence, it will be manifested.

"Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? " -- 1 Corinthians 6:19

[phil36]

I have already posted this but I will again for mpaper:

Question: Do Paul and James contradict each other?



Paul: Justified by faith alone.
James: Justified by works .


Answer: In order to answer this question we have to look at what each author is saying in context. This seemingly problematic contradiction comes from the use of ‘Abraham’s Justification’ by both Paul and James in their text.

• Paul: Romans 4:2-3 “For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
• James: James 2:21 “ Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?”

Reading these two verses side by side gives the impression that James was at odds with Paul. Paul explicitly states that Abraham was justified by faith and James just as emphatically says Abraham was justified by works. In the book of James, The author is talking about ‘works of faith’ in other words ‘works that show faith’. James is not talking about works that will save you, but proving your faith to the world. God knows you have faith but the only way (humanly speaking) that we can tell is by works of faith or as John would say, ‘fruit of the spirit’.



On the other hand Paul is talking about works that save. No matter how hard you try or do wondrous works, it will not save you. What Paul is saying, is that, following the law in every aspect was not the key to salvation; faith was.



What seems to cause confusion is the use by both authors of the story of Abraham. This is not a problem if you carefully read which portions of Abraham’s life both Paul and James are talking about. Paul points out, through his example of Abraham, that faith came first and was given credit, for after all, Abraham was counted as righteous before Moses saw the light of day little alone receive the law! Thus it can NOT be following the bare moral code that leads to salvation.

In contrast, James says not a word about circumcision or following the written code. He speaks of application as a result of a living faith, after conversion. Nor does he use Abraham’s following of the “law” as proof of his righteousness: He points to his validating actions that proved his faith in God.
Paul and James both use Abraham, they are answering different questions – and their answers are in harmony with scripture.

• Paul’s perspective: He was viewing the guilty sinner who needed to be right with God (The sinner is in view).
• James’ perspective: He was viewing the believer (or professing believer) who needed to demonstrate that his faith was real (The believer is in view).

THERE IS NO CONTRADICTION, just a proper understanding of what is being said in Scripture.

[Thaddaeus]

if works before ( or without Christ) can't save us then works after Christ can't save us or keep us saved, if faith is evidnce of things not seen than works are things that can be seen that is no part of faith: look at your reference real close:

Jas 2:22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Jesus said to the disciples several times oh ye of little faith, but He never told them that they were lost, because their faith was not perfect, or they didn't show their faith by their actions. truth be known the ones He said had little faith, He also told them to rejoice for their names were written in heaven. James started off with saying that works perfect our faith But look at how james summed this thought up:

Jas 2:26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
He didn't say it couldn't be faith without works but rather it was a dead faith.
I preached a lady's funeral about a month ago, as I walked up to the coffin I saw the Body of a lady that I once knew. it was dead, it wasn't doing any of the things that the body is supposed to be doing, but it was still a body, same as faith it is dead but it is still faith, if it is dead or little faith or perfect faith it is still faith, and our faith that we need for our salvation is based On Jesus Christ and His Works, and His works alone least I boast. Look when you get to heaven and bow at the feet of Jesus, will you say Jesus look at all that i did for You, or will you say Thank you Jesus for all You did for me. the disciples when they were in the boat they didn't fear dying and going to hell, their saving faith in Jesus was still there but they feared dying and had little faith in making it to the other side, when Jesus had already said Let's go over to the other side!

Will we trust In Jesus Christ or will we trust in our works???? and how grevious it must be for our Lord to know that some preach what He did on the Cross was not good enough, and that He left it up to us to complete our salvation, the law was a schoolmaster to teach us that man needed the Mercy and Grace of God,

1co 3:11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.1co 3:12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;1co 3:13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.1co 3:14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.1co 3:15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


if my works are burned up I shall be saved , and this sums it up for me

[mpaper345]

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling(Philippians 2:12).

This passage says that we have to work out our own salvation so when we come to God we still have to work at our salvation to be saved.

Matt

[DinoDillinger]

Originally Posted by mpaper345

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling(Philippians 2:12).

This passage says that we have to work out our own salvation so when we come to God we still have to work at our salvation to be saved.

Matt

It says work out, not work for.

Jesus does say that if you deny Him He will deny you before the Father. He also says there are those who confess Him with their mouth but deny Him in their works. Maybe if people understood regeneration and grace this would not confuse so many. A saved person will have good works, it is evidence of the Holy Spirit that dwells in them. If the root is holy then the whole tree will be holy. What happens is that people try to will themselves saved by making a confession then keeping themselves saved by doing all sorts of things they hate doing to stay saved. Then they point to other people who don't understand either and tell them that them making a confession is not enough but they have to keep going willing themselves to the end. A person is supposed to humble themselves and call upon the Lord for mercy, and when He has mercy on them He also puts a new spirit within them so they want to do the will of the Father because that is now their love, who was were slaves of sin but now slaves of righteousness. This is the work of God, not the work of man. It is God redeeming and calling a people to Himself. Good day!

[MahogonySnail]

You are justified the moment you believe i.e. trust God in your heart/mind. If you are justified you are saved. There is no works in that. At least, I don't call believing a work. I don't call thinking about something, a work. I don't call hearing and speaking a work. Others may.

[distinctiveministry]

James says not that we are justified by works, but that we are not justified WITHOUT works. James never slanders faith, just states that there is not faith which does not produce works as a direct result.

Saved by faith, but not without the fruit that faith produces. (The parable of the soils is a good example, only the one that produces fruit is saved, unlike what you hear in most sermons today.)

[Thaddaeus]

Originally Posted by mpaper345

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling(Philippians 2:12).

This passage says that we have to work out our own salvation so when we come to God we still have to work at our salvation to be saved.

Matt

WORK OUT YOUR SALVATION NOT WORK FOR YOUR SAVALTION. If I hire you to do some landscaping for me, and if I pay you in advanced, then technically you are not working for your pay but you are working out your pay. if you have to do the Job then I pay you then you are working for your pay. this just explains working out and working for, But let me show you even further where you can't be right in your intrepretation that we have to work for our salvation; salvation is a gift as the man on the cross didn't have time to work out his salvation but still receive it. if anyone starts at birth to work out their salvation they will never be able to pay the price, but will still receive it. if anyone tries to work for their salvation they will never earn it. but please focus on the Gift of God, a gift is something someones gives not because you earned it or you bought it, they were able to give it to you because it was theirs to give and they wanted you to have it, even if you didn't deserve it. it wasn't yours to take because you worked for it but theirs to give because they wanted you to have it. IF WE HAVE TO WORK FOR IT THEN IT IS NO LONGER A GIFT AND THE BIBLE WAS WRONG (WHICH JUST CAN"T BE) WHEN IT SAID:


Ro 6:23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Note here through Jesus Christ not through Jesus Christ and your works

[seeacts238]

first of all let me tell you what faith really mean?


in James ;2 v 4 v14 What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don't show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone
15 >Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food.
16 >If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?
17 >In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 >But someone will say, "You have faith;I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.


the greek word for deeds<---mean > work,

so what is work, ?

here all kind of work we should be doing, ( 1 ) preaching the gosple is one of em, ( 2 ) fixing dinner for some one that can't get out of bed, ( 3 ) help the poor
that is need. ( 4 ) give money to those who need it, ( 5 ) take time out to drive
some one to a doctore and back, ( 6 ) buy food and take it to there home, ( 7 )
haveing bible study with some one that need to know Jesus more, ( 8 ) go pick
Strawberry for the elderly people that are old ( 9 ) go to hospital visit to those
who could'nt make it to church,. ( 10 ) > go to a prision or jail to preach the
gosple for those who want it, and this is what ----deeds mean ----->w o r k>
and if you do not put your faith to work, or deed, then your faith is dead,
there all kind of work out there? if you Just do them. and if you do not do
them ,then your faith is dead,
in James; 2 v 18 18 >But someone will say, "You have faith;I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, or work, and I will show you my faith ----by what I do.

[Jordan9]

The goats in the Parable of the Sheep and Goats believed in Jesus and that He was their Saviour, yet he still sent them away because they didn't feed Him, cloth Him, visit Him, and give Him drink. Jesus said their faith would not save them alone.

[iraasuup]

Originally Posted by mpaper345

The Bible says we are saved by works.

The Bible says we are not saved by works.

This seems like a contradiction but it is not.

Do not listen to Calvin or Luther that you do not have to have works but learn the truth.

The Bible says we are saved by grace through faith.That means we have to have faith to be saved.Faith is the substance of things hoped for,the evidence of things not seen.We have to have faith in a kingdom we cannot see because it is spiritual kingdom that we are trying to obtain but there is evidence of those things not seen by the Spirit.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also(James 2:24;26).


The Bible says we have to have works to have faith activated in our lives to be saved.Since we have to have faith to be saved and we have to have works to have faith activated in our lives then we have to have works to be saved.
We have to have works to be saved.

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling(Philippians 2:12).

The Bible says we are to work out our own salvation which means we must participate in our salvation.It is up to us to maintain our salvation and make sure we stay right with God after we are saved.

We have to have works to be saved.This is talking about after we come to Christ and follow Him we have to have works.

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began(2 Timothy 1:9)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast(Ephesians 2:8-9).



We are not saved by works.This is talking about before we come to Christ.It is saying that any works we do trying to get to heaven without confessing Christ as our savior will get us to heaven but only by confessing Christ as our savior then we have to have works to be saved.


False religions and people who do works trying to get to heaven without confessing Christ as their savior will get them to heaven except by confessing Christ as their savior.


We are saved by works is saying after we come to Christ we have to have works to be saved.


We are not saved by works is talking before we come to Christ.Trying to get to heaven by works such as false religions without confessing Christ as our savior.


We are not saved by any works that we do trying to get to heaven without confessing Christ as our savior but we are saved by confessing Christ as our savior then we have to have works to ensure our salvation.


This clears up the seemingly contradiction we are saved by works,not saved by works to show that it is not a contradiction.


Matt

Exactly where in the bible does it say we are saved by works?

Grace yes, but works...um no FAIL!

[ProudLibertarian]

I believe salvation is obtained through belief in Christ AND works! Christ spent most of his ministry preforming good works. I have not a clue as to why most "Christians" are so vehemently opposed to good works? It's silly.

[iraasuup]

I have no problem with works.

I agree yes we should all do 'works'. The desire to do 'works' should come naturally to us BECAUSE we are saved.

What I am opposed to is the notion that BECAUSE we do 'works' we are then saved.

Make sense?

[Browncoat]

Originally Posted by iraasuup

I have no problem with works.

I agree yes we should all do 'works'. The desire to do 'works' should come naturally to us BECAUSE we are saved.

What I am opposed to is the notion that BECAUSE we do 'works' we are then saved.

Make sense?

This is absolutely correct. I would also say that works don't save, but they can d a m n.

[ProudLibertarian]

Originally Posted by iraasuup

I have no problem with works.

I agree yes we should all do 'works'. The desire to do 'works' should come naturally to us BECAUSE we are saved.

What I am opposed to is the notion that BECAUSE we do 'works' we are then saved.

Make sense?

Gotcha.

Christ has COMMANDED us to do good works! Remember the sermon on the mount?

[distinctiveministry]

Clearly, no one can simply work their way into heaven. For this reason alone it should be obvious that no one is saved "by" works. Someone has already taken the liberty to share passages from James which challenge anyone to show their faith without works, and James states that his faith is seen by what he does.
I don't think that the debate here is really about works, I think it is about faith, i.e how is faith defined? What does faith include and exclude? Most protestants take faith to mean "belief", so that we are saved by grace alone, through belief alone. Personally, I don't think this view is biblical or can be fully justified from scripture. James, on the other hand, seems to be addressing exactly the question we need to reexamine in most churches today...what is faith? Again, for him, there is no such thing as a faith that does not yield good works as its fruit. Such "faith" is dead and useless.

[phil36]

People being born again and sanctification.

Born again in in the past tense.. once you are born of the spirit and become a new creation it is then an event in the past.

Sanctification is ongoing, this is where you, where the fruit of the spirit comes in.

then Glorification

You are justified (righteous = a right standing before God) by Faith alone. How was Abraham declared righteous? and who are the true children of Abraham through Faith?

Personally, I don't think this view is biblical or can be fully justified from scripture

Distinctive you can't have both, you either don't believe the bible says that or you don't think there is enough biblical evidence.

As we have already discussed. Faith saves you, it is how you walk the walk, it conforming more and more to be Christlike (bearing good fruit) that James is really talking about.

He is teaching Christians that if your are saved by Faith, show your Faith. this is a work of the Holy spirit to bear fruit in us, yet we can still resist on occasions)

I think I have posted above, about the distinctions of what is being discussed.

Phil

[phil36]

Originally Posted by ProudLibertarian

Gotcha.

Christ has COMMANDED us to do good works! Remember the sermon on the mount?

Proud it would be good for you to actually read the Scripture,, where exactly are the commands???

Phil

[distinctiveministry]

Originally Posted by phil36

People being born again and sanctification.

Born again in in the past tense.. once you are born of the spirit and become a new creation it is then an event in the past.

Sanctification is ongoing, this is where you, where the fruit of the spirit comes in.

then Glorification

You are justified (righteous = a right standing before God) by Faith alone. How was Abraham declared righteous? and who are the true children of Abraham through Faith?



Distinctive you can't have both, you either don't believe the bible says that or you don't think there is enough biblical evidence.

As we have already discussed. Faith saves you, it is how you walk the walk, it conforming more and more to be Christlike (bearing good fruit) that James is really talking about.

He is teaching Christians that if your are saved by Faith, show your Faith. this is a work of the Holy spirit to bear fruit in us, yet we can still resist on occasions)

I think I have posted above, about the distinctions of what is being discussed.

Phil

Phil, I wasn't clear. The view that I don't think is justified is the idea that faith = belief. From the usage of "faith" in scripture I think it inherently includes something more than just intellectual agreement and assent. In other words, intellectual agreement and assent alone do not = faith.