Is Atheism a Religion?

[JessP]

Yep!

Sadly, though, I'm not seeing our friend JessP around... I really hope she comes back.

Here I am SOrry for delay I have a busy job..... and a 2 year old. I'm just catching up now!

 

[roguemouser]

One of my favorite authors once wrote in a work of fiction "Atheism is a religious position, in that atheists think of God all the time, albeit in terms of denial."

Seems a good answer to me.

 

[JessP]

[/QUOTE]

I am out of town for a few days so using my tablet. I apologize for any errors that may occur.

I would definitely like to know what it is you've heard about American Christians. We have so many kinds its fascinating to think there is a singular stereotype.

Super religious, uneducated, unquestioning of their faith, mistrusting Atheists, literals. There is a clip from British TV I would like to show you but it's content is perhaps a little/a lot offensive to Christians therefore I don't want to post it here. However I would PM the link to anyone who is interested in how religion is spoken about in the UK on television It is a comedy show . - I couldn't for example imagine a program like this would be shown in America [/QUOTE]

[/QUOTE]

Well, do you feel that you are simply an organic robot, so to speak? Your conscious being, that is just a product of natural processes? When you interact with loved ones, do you feel the same about them as you/we would feel about a beloved pet? Knowing that individual consciousness is basically an illusion?

And I hope that doesn't come across as rude. It's not meant to be. It's just intended to pick your brain, lol.

Not rude, and great question. - I have different relationship with people to pets, they cant talk ect. human to human have a higher level of communication and shared experience therefore I would feel more for them. Is human life more valuable then say a an animal life, i don't think I could give a definitive answer. Personally I would say yes to me it is. But I could not say objectivly that is the case.
Basically, if we are just animals, howbeit advanced animals, and when we die we wink out of existence, is this something that would impact how some people live? Would this significantly change how we interact?


[/QUOTE]

You can discuss whatever you like, no real restrictions, just conversation with a central theme of religion and atheism.

And basically we're just considering the opposing viewpoints. ID versus chance. Spiritual versus non spiritual/natural, et cetera.

Perhaps you could expand on the Buddhist principles you embrace?

*Grabs Can opener* Well the Buddhist principles I try to follow are the ones about loving kindness, loving others unconditionally, mindful living, the key to happiness. trying to live a good life basically. I like how the Buddha said don't trust in what I say because I have said it test it out. - I don't follow all the principals but I have found that mindful living and the advice it has on being a good person useful in my day to day life. I don't however believe in any of the supernatural elements, reincarnation.


[/QUOTE]

And that's okay. One might not view man being an animal the same way another would.

Consider children: its normal for a cat to sometimes eat the dead of a litter, is there any reason why women shouldn't? If we are all just animals, would we be wrong to impose a view that it would be natural for women to do the same?

I guess the question is, do you see a distinction between men and other animals, and if so, what? Why would we take issue with people for doing what is natural, which opens the door too a great many scenarios.

And I apologize again, I have been sick and not feeling well. Worked til 8:30 last night then made a 4 1\2 hour drive so my brain is t fully functional today, lol.

I appreciate the time you have taken to write this as you are not feeling well. ( hope you feel better soon)

In theory no there would be no reason why it would not be acceptable for a mother to eat a dead child. However culturally this is not seen as acceptable where I live, in this time, based on my sensibilities and view of the world. However could there be a culture where this is seen as acceptable possibly, will this ever be seen as acceptable again possibly. It does not sit well with me but then I understand that it might in the past or in the future. Just as I am sure somethings I consider morally just or natural may be considered shocking or unnatural in the future. I don't believe that morality is objective nor is what one finds repulsive or natural.





[/QUOTE]

Some things, yes. It is scientifically impossible for something to come from nothing. So we eoitjher view am eternal universe with no beginning or end or we have to go outside the universe for that beginning. Which is speculated in areas such as quantum physics, which Bible believers have acknowledged for moillennoa...that's there is that which we cannot at this point identify.

The spiritual realm is another dimension, so to speak, outside of our own realm. We could never reach it in moillioms of years but be there in the twinkling of an eye when our spirits are released though death.

Perhaps the universe has a beguinning perhaps not. Perhaps it does have a cause outside what we understand to be time and space. But even if that is the case , how would we know that to be 'God' in any other sense other than the idea of it only being the thing outside of time and space. How would we even know if it cared about us, or was christian or some other religion , or was even still there now?

I don't see the creation of the world as either A God or B no God, what about all the other letters. As I understand it Quantum Physics views the universe as having infinite parallel universes with every possibility , and watch of those universes have their own paralle universes ... so on and so forth, so why would ours be the one that happened to have Christian God?

[/QUOTE]

If you are inexperienced then your doing great, lol.

Excellent job quoting.


God bless.

Thanks very much you are too kind. I am really enjoying these conversations. I have so many more questions and topics to talk about this is great.

I hope to have more time this week to post more responses.

 

[JessP]

Response part two.....

It is possible to unknow something, lol. For example I had to "unknow" that all athreists are immoral morons. That was something I learned from other people rather than actually speaking with atheists. I had to unknow the belief that I was a "good" person. I shudder at who I used to be and still see miuch work to be done in my life.

What we need to examine, all of us, is the basis of that which we think we know.

Perhaps I have recently been asking myself what would it take to believe in God, and I am yet to come up with a final answer, I think it would involve something I could test over and over with the same result that other people could also do and come up with the same result. I am yet to work out what that test would be.



[/QUOTE]

Well, just so you know my own perspective, I see that Scripture teaches that no one will be converted apart from the Word of God. I usually challenge atheists to spend time in Scripture and test that beleif. Many will say they grew up in çhurch so they already know that isn't true, but, there is a difference between an adult seeking truth and a child that is forced to go to church.

And just as important is the fact that many "churches" can be questioned in regards to their church's teaching and what the Bible itself actually teaches.

And at this point, if you are interested, I would ask what exactly do you know about the God of the Bible? Isn't it reasonable, Jess, that if you "do not believe in God," there be a reasonable basis for that rejection?

I know about the bible in terms of the stories of the bible, it has some beautiful verses and I encourage my students to read the bible despite many of them not being religious as I think it is a usful skill to know how to read the bible. It is also important as part of the UK's cultural identity to understand the political and cultural norms that we live in.

[/QUOTE]

So I would ask what is the basis for rejecting God. What knowledge of the God of the Bible do you have. Basing it on Christians would not be reasonable, for two reasons. First, I cant see how anyone could find fault with a bibilcal Christian, which demands we first know what a Biblical Christian is, and secondly we would have to look at what kind of Christian it is that is rejected.

Again, what do you know of the Good of the Bible?

For me there is no proof that the Bible is the word of God any more than any other Holy text is proof that that religion is the word of God.
I had read parts of the Bible, not cover to cover, but I own one and I use it from time to time. My rejection is not based on the bible, its based on the fact I don't believe because I don't feel their is evidence. So linking that to the Bible perhaps I am saying that I don't feel that the Bible is evidence that God exists. Even if I found all the information to be plausible and believable in the bible It is still not evidence ( in my mind) for God.


[/QUOTE]

So lets get hypothetical, lol. If it were real, would you discount yourself as a candidate because you felt you were a good person? This is within a framework of you believing it was real.

Secondly, could you expand on what you think Scripture teaches concerning Hell? There are some misconceptions even among believer.

If it were real, currently yes I would be a candidate because I have not accepted Jesus as my personal savior. Being a good person by my or anyone mortal's standard would fall short of God's standard.

I also do not agree with some of the things that God classes ans sins to be sinful therefore I suppose I hold my own views of morality above that of God's so that I think would be a big no no.

I don't really know what hell would be. In the medieval times the doom paintings created the popular image of firey lakes and people in pain and torment. Others have told me that it is to be without God.
I don't really know how the concept of hell would work, the idea of hell does not scare me because I don't see how it would work.

[/QUOTE]

That is true, though there is a little more to it than just that. I see Scripture as teaching that God reveals Himself to all men/women, and will judge them based on their response to that revelation. But, its not a matter that we are judged one way or the other based on our good/bad works, its a matter that we are born separated from God to begin with. In other words, we are born already bound for eternal judgment, and because God is not willing that any should perish, He has made provision for men, and that provision is the revelation He provides.

So I would suggest that likely you have a sense of right and wrong based in that which God has revealed to your heart.

I need to think on this a little bit more I have some questions on this but need to reflect on them a little bit more.


[/QUOTE]

I would agree for the most part, but forgiveness in relationship with God is another matter. As I have said, !ost people feel they are we good, and the wrongdoing they commit is never seen as extreme as the wrongdoings of others, lol.

We all-star in our own little productions and we always cast ourselves in the role of hero.

I actually don't think anyone is bad and that everyone commits wrong doing but ultimately we are all good. People just want to be loved and to be happy and to avoid suffering. When people do something hurtful I believe it is a mirror on them. If someone insults me or tried to hurt me I honestly try and feel compassion for them . A happy and well person would not want to hurt another.

That's why I think people in prison for example need the most love and compassion.
I don't believe in hero's and villains, people have done terrible terrible things, but I don't believe that is something innate in them I think it is a reflection on a deep unhappiness within them.

This is something I think about a lot, very hard to pin down however.

Phew I think I have caught up with all your messages.

 

[JessP]

And that is the obvious conclusion that must be drawn if the conscience of man is simply the result of bodily function. But should we be surprised that those who view man as simply a higher form of animal should conclude thus?

This is why morality is often a hot topic of debate between Atheists and those of faith. This is how something can be right for one and not necessarily right for someone else.

But we can say without controversy that there are moral absolutes, and the primary problem Atheists are going to have with that is that this suggests a source for those absolutes. If the universe and everything in it is simply the result of chance, then it is reasonable that the actions of men are morally defined individually, and that what one might see as wrong-doing might be perfectly acceptable to another, and both be right, or, at least, the one decrying the actions of another would be viewed as over-reaching their right to impose their morality on another.


God bless.

I don't think there are moral absolutes.

Morality I think has changed and evolved over time. I think it will continue to change and what is seen as morally just at one time will not be in the future and visa versa.

What moral absolutes can you think of ?

 

[Magenta]

Here I am SOrry for delay I have a busy job..... and a 2 year old. I'm just catching up now!

Welcome back

 

[JessP]

Thanks! Its so nice to be back. x

 

[Dan_473]

Thanks! Its so nice to be back. x

Hi again JessP!

(I'd stopped checking this thread when no one seemed to be posting on it anymore... so, glad it's active again...)

I wanted to talk about stuff similar to P1lg1m's "organic robot" idea...

If, on a cold winter morning, my car battery fails to start my car, I might say, "It's gone bad"... but I don't mean "morally bad"... evil...

If a human does something I don't approve of (fill in the blank with heinous crime), I might say they are evil...

Are humans actually capable of Evil (while a battery is not)?

 

[Magenta]

I have recently been asking myself what would it take to believe in God, and I am yet to come up with a final answer, I think it would involve something I could test over and over with the same result that other people could also do and come up with the same result. I am yet to work out what that test would be.

Jess, remember what I said here, two weeks ago?

The supernatural is something that cannot quite be pinned down, so some atheists will not accept it because it cannot be experimented with to give the same results every time, yet they will deny they are making demands of God to perform a certain way, to fit their criterion. Some will not even accept the word spiritual. I talked to one atheist for a while who would refer to "spiritual" as a soggy cabbage of a word.

And here?

... Jess, you speak of being able to change your beliefs easily as if being given evidence of God is all it would take. It is no small thing to have the Creator of the universe reveal Himself to you when you are in denial, defiance, rebellion, and disobedience to Him. You might think you were having a hallucination to see or hear from God, maybe even desperately try to rationalize the experience away. And yet it is a personal relationship He desires with you.

You may not be able to replicate your experiences with God. That is part of the faith package. Some things you may be able to test and perhaps even duplicate in a manner of speaking, such as the efficacy of prayer. But even at that, prayer is not getting God to perform on demand; it is more an aligning your will with His. Do you make a habit of praying? Even the serenity prayer can be helpful.

 

[JessP]

Hi again JessP!

(I'd stopped checking this thread when no one seemed to be posting on it anymore... so, glad it's active again...)

I wanted to talk about stuff similar to P1lg1m's "organic robot" idea...

If, on a cold winter morning, my car battery fails to start my car, I might say, "It's gone bad"... but I don't mean "morally bad"... evil...

If a human does something I don't approve of (fill in the blank with heinous crime), I might say they are evil...

Are humans actually capable of Evil (while a battery is not)?

I am so glad you did check the thread again. I read your post yesterday before bed so I have had some time to try and think how to explain this.

Firstly before can say if A person can do something that is Evil I think I need a definition of evil. Perhaps something that you have said is morrally bad.

I don't believe Morality is objective, I believe Mankind morality has changed over time and dependent on culture and age and many other factors.

If a human does something I don't approve of

I think it is interesting that you said I don't approve of and then go on to say that YOU would call them evil. Because perhaps I do approve and believe that if they did not do that action then it would be immoral.

I also don't believe that humans are fundamentally evil. That like a car battery we get broken. We get broken by society, by poverty, by a lack of love, the list goes on. Humans then can commit acts that I and others would regard as wrong. These behaviors are a consequence of them being broken.

The acts themselves to me or others may be immoral but not the person.

I think Morality is a human constructed concept. I am sure my view of morality is different to yours. But then I would not consider you immoral because you have different views.

I suppose the only think I can view as immoral is something that causes suffering to another. even then I am sure there are exceptions.

So trying to answer your question, yes humans are capable of Evil in so far as what they, society and others deem to be evil/immoral. But that is because it is a human construct that was made to attribute a morality to peoples actions.


I'm sure you are going to have more questions as I don't know how clear I have been....LOL

 

[JessP]

Jess, remember what I said here, two weeks ago?


And here?

You may not be able to replicate your experiences with God. That is part of the faith package. Some things you may be able to test and perhaps even duplicate in a manner of speaking, such as the efficacy of prayer. But even at that, prayer is not getting God to perform on demand; it is more an aligning your will with His. Do you make a habit of praying? Even the serenity prayer can be helpful.

It is hard to know how to respond to this really. I think it just points out that I for whatever reason will never be saved.

I could change my beliefs but only according to what I understand to be reliable evidence. I don't feel as though rebellion and disobedience are quite right however as I don't believe he is real to defy. I think to do those things I would first have to believe he was there.

I have prayed in the past, but I feel like I am not really talking to anyone. I definitely think it can be a useful tool to help people be reflective etc.

If god did make me then he made me to be doubting, that would be cruel. To know that I would require the kind of evidence that he wont give in order to believe in him.

Its a tough thing to understand.

 

[Dan_473]

Firstly before can say if A person can do something that is Evil I think I need a definition of evil.

good point! and that's why I used the "fill in the blank with heinous crime"...I don't think we need a common definition of evil, for this discussion, imo... there're some things I call evil... are there any behaviours that you would call evil?


or, to look at the positive aspect, any behaviours you would call morally good?

 

[JessP]

good point! and that's why I used the "fill in the blank with heinous crime"...I don't think we need a common definition of evil, for this discussion, imo... there're some things I call evil... are there any behaviours that you would call evil?


or, to look at the positive aspect, any behaviors you would call morally good?

There are behaviors I would consider morally good and morally evil. But I recognise that these are just my view and not a moral absolute.

So I could say abortion is morally acceptable in some situations others my disagree with me.
I don't think evil as a tangible thing exists no. I think it is a human construct that is why evil is different for others.

I would call some behaviors good yes. I wall call some behaviors. - But just because I view them that way dose not make them intrinsically good or bad.

Does that make more sense? - Is that what you were looking for in the way of an answer?

 

[Dan_473]

There are behaviors I would consider morally good and morally evil. But I recognise that these are just my view and not a moral absolute.

No problem... so, a question then is why do we think humans are capable of moral actions, while a car battery is not?

 

[Magenta]

It is hard to know how to respond to this really. I think it just points out that I for whatever reason will never be saved.

I could change my beliefs but only according to what I understand to be reliable evidence. I don't feel as though rebellion and disobedience are quite right however as I don't believe he is real to defy. I think to do those things I would first have to believe he was there.

I have prayed in the past, but I feel like I am not really talking to anyone. I definitely think it can be a useful tool to help people be reflective etc.

If god did make me then he made me to be doubting, that would be cruel. To know that I would require the kind of evidence that he wont give in order to believe in him.

Its a tough thing to understand.

Thank you for your response, Jess. I must tell you that it saddens me to think you believe, because you do not know Him yet, that God must have created you for destruction or just to doubt. Part of what I am saying to you is that the type of relationship God desires with you requires your participation, and it is spiritually based, so the type of evidence you will be given will probably be very personal and not transferable in the way that it can be used as proof for another person, nor will you be able to repeat the experiences at will to test them for veracity. You are already participating by questioning, and looking at what you believe in relation to God. One thing I know as a Christian, and I knew it from the other side of the cross as well, is that God loves you. God loves you and knows you better than you know and understand yourself. I encourage you to keep seeking answers, as the more you seek, the more you are likely to experience God in ways that will keep moving you toward Him. Seeking is as the tilling of the ground of your mind, preparing it for the seed of God's Word to take root and hold. The Son is always shining; seeking clears the clouds. Love to you, Jess, in the name of Jesus Christ, Who gave His life that you might have life more abundantly.

 

[JessP]

Sorry for delay but life gets in the way...

Right had some time to think on this Dan.

I would say that we do 'think' humans are capable of moral actions where as in reality we are not. we are capable of action and we choose ourselves to say if that action is moral or not. If I wanted to I could say that a car Battery's actions are moral or not .

We don't tend to assign inanimate objects as moral or not. I suppose we might say that a Gun is immoral weapons or a device used for torture is immoral.

But I would say that there is no such thing as morality. We as humans have decided that we will call something's moral or immoral.
So we are capable of moral actions because we decided that we would call actions moral or not. If we wanted we could decided that batteries are also moral or not.

 

[Dan_473]

But I would say that there is no such thing as morality.

ok, so nothing in the end is really good or evil...

using the same thinking, I would assume that one would also say that there is no meaning or purpose to the universe, human life, or anything, really...

imo, in that situation, there's really no basis for continued discussion (which wouldn't really have any meaning anyways)...

not that I don't enjoy talking to you... but just like if someone asserts that one's consciousness is all that exists, *if* someone asserts that there is no morality or purpose to life, imo the only things left to talk about are, maybe, the next cool song on the radio...

 

[Dan_473]

(now, granted that this may in the end be a meaningless discussion)

so, JessP (or anyone who want to respond), what's your take on our ability to choose? imo, current thinking in physics is that the movement of particles is deterministic (or random if the particles are really small)...

so, if an object such as yourself behaves in a certain way, we can say it was "making a choice"... but it's really just a language thing, like calling something "moral"...

but, no choice is really being made... it's like flipping a switch and seeing a lightbulb turn on...

 

[sydlit]

(now, granted that this may in the end be a meaningless discussion)

so, JessP (or anyone who want to respond), what's your take on our ability to choose? imo, current thinking in physics is that the movement of particles is deterministic (or random if the particles are really small)...

so, if an object such as yourself behaves in a certain way, we can say it was "making a choice"... but it's really just a language thing, like calling something "moral"...

but, no choice is really being made... it's like flipping a switch and seeing a lightbulb turn on...

Hey Dan..... And anyone else here.
And God bless Jess. And BEAUTIFUL magenta! Wish I had your knowledge.
Hope I can chime in with 2-cents.
I think it was Ravi Zacharius I heard say,
(he may have been quoting someone else?)
But he said, 'In some cultures they love their neighbor,
In some cultures they eat them, ... Do you have a preference?'
Making a point about cultural/moral relativism.
Is killing, cooking and eating your neighbor
A worse choice than caring, loving and helping them
If there is no God? Why or why not?

Btw, perhaps Jess might like Ravi's ministry.
I'm not making an endorsement...I haven't checked him out
in a long time myself, which I should...
The title, 'Let My People Think', says it all what he's about...
thinking about God, Life, Scripture in a deep way, something Jess
seems to be into, (as we all should). Think I'll pay them a long overdue
visit myself...I got some great insight from them long ago, and have
kind of gotten away from those challenges to the mind,
a sometimes forgotten place where we are ALSO called
to love the Lord our God (with).
Sometimes it seems my heart and
mind are at battle with each other,
but God says we are to love Him and each other
with ALL our heart AND ALL our mind together, not taking turns, lol.
Thx to you ppl and this thread for the encouragement in that direction.

 

[JessP]

ok, so nothing in the end is really good or evil...

using the same thinking, I would assume that one would also say that there is no meaning or purpose to the universe, human life, or anything, really...

imo, in that situation, there's really no basis for continued discussion (which wouldn't really have any meaning anyways)...

not that I don't enjoy talking to you... but just like if someone asserts that one's consciousness is all that exists, *if* someone asserts that there is no morality or purpose to life, imo the only things left to talk about are, maybe, the next cool song on the radio...

:O Hey Dan come on you don’t really want to end our conversation!

I don’t think the fact that there are no absolutes beyond what we have constructed has to lead to Nhialism. I think it depends on how you see it. To some extend I think that it makes conversations like this more meaningful.
We don’t have any absolute rules to follow therefore we need to work out our own rules and own values and give meaning to the way we live. Is that not exciting and make these conversations all the more important?
I don’t think there is a purpose to the universe. But I don’t think there needs to be. I give my life my own meaning, it is different to other peoples and it could change over time it’s not fixed. It is not an absolute it’s just how I see things right now.
I see what you mean about us talking about the latest pop song and to some people they would say yes that is equally important to me. But for myself and what I value as important that does not interest me nearly as much.
Personally I believe in trying to be the best person I can be and helping others to do the same. You could ask why bother. Because it makes me happy. I want to live a happy life and everyone to have a happy life and to leave the world in a good way for future generations.
Part of deciding what a good life is, is talking to people discussing things learning what other think and believe and why. Knowledge is power. I can only make discussions and live my life based on the knowledge I have.
I totally get it if you don’t want to talk any more but….. I hope you do.
I am interested to know why you do believe in God? What do you think of my above view? Can you see any reasons why it does not make sense to you?