Eternal security = Preservation of the Saved.. NOT 'Perseverance of the saints'

[wattie]

Perseverance of the saints-- that is those who God has pre-chosen WILL do good works.. and if they aren't doing good works weren't saved to begin with.

Preservation of the saved-- that is those who have called for eternal salvation out of conviction from the Holy Spirit.. are kept by Him regardless of whether they are displaying good works or not. They are 'saved to begin with' because they were convicted by the Holy Spirit and called for salvation...not because they are doing good works now.

Perseverance of the saints says that a believer WILL endure to the end. Taking 'he that endures to the end will be saved' out of content

Preservation of the saved says that a believer will have the Holy Spirit guiding them in their soul.. but that doesn't mean they will endure all things to the end.

Perseverance of the saints-- salvation is attributed to sanctification.

Preservation of the saved-- salvation is justification.. and justification alone.


Eternal security is NOT perseverance of the saints. The saints in this are pre-chosen in advance and must do good works or they were never saved to begin with... or they were never saved in the first place.

Eternal security is preservation of the saved... the saved in this have each been convicted by the Holy Spirit and called for salvation past tense.. and are now secure regardless of whether are continually faithful or not.

This has probably been thrashed out.. but I just wanted to get this distinction out there.

When most christians think of eternal security-- for some reason it is always 'perseverance of the saints'..

The calvinism idea of perseverance of the saints isn't really eternal security! It is only eternal security for the select few who are continually faithful and will endure to the end!

 

[valiant]

Perseverance of the saints-- that is those who God has pre-chosen WILL do good works.. and if they aren't doing good works weren't saved to begin with.

Preservation of the saved-- that is those who have called for eternal salvation out of conviction from the Holy Spirit.. are kept by Him regardless of whether they are displaying good works or not. They are 'saved to begin with' because they were convicted by the Holy Spirit and called for salvation...not because they are doing good works now.

Perseverance of the saints says that a believer WILL endure to the end. Taking 'he that endures to the end will be saved' out of content

Preservation of the saved says that a believer will have the Holy Spirit guiding them in their soul.. but that doesn't mean they will endure all things to the end.

Perseverance of the saints-- salvation is attributed to sanctification.

Preservation of the saved-- salvation is justification.. and justification alone.


Eternal security is NOT perseverance of the saints. The saints in this are pre-chosen in advance and must do good works or they were never saved to begin with... or they were never saved in the first place.

Eternal security is preservation of the saved... the saved in this have each been convicted by the Holy Spirit and called for salvation past tense.. and are now secure regardless of whether are continually faithful or not.

This has probably been thrashed out.. but I just wanted to get this distinction out there.

When most christians think of eternal security-- for some reason it is always 'perseverance of the saints'..

The calvinism idea of perseverance of the saints isn't really eternal security! It is only eternal security for the select few who are continually faithful and will endure to the end!

Personally I think your distinctions are unscriptural and incorrect. We cannot lay down the rules and the tests.

eternal security is based on one fact and one fact only. that Jesus Christ guarantees salvation to all those who truly call on Him for it. Once a person has truly committed himself to Christ for salvation, his salvation is guaranteed from start to finish BECAUE IT IS CHRIST WHO IS DOING THE SAVING.

This is the Father's will Who sent Me, that of ALL whom He has given Me I should lose NOTHING, but should raise them up at the last day. (John 6.39).

Any view that does not fit into that is not worth having.

Of course anyone whom Christ is saving WILL be changed from glory into glory because He will ensure it, but there may be hiccups on the way. But they will certainly endure to the end

 

[Mitspa]

Wow No scripture at all?

 

[valiant]

Wow No scripture at all?

LOL and there was me thinking that John 6.39 was Scripture.

 

[Mitspa]

LOL and there was me thinking that John 6.39 was Scripture.

not your post the OP

 

[P1LGR1M]

Perseverance of the saints-- that is those who God has pre-chosen WILL do good works.. and if they aren't doing good works weren't saved to begin with.

Preservation of the saved-- that is those who have called for eternal salvation out of conviction from the Holy Spirit.. are kept by Him regardless of whether they are displaying good works or not. They are 'saved to begin with' because they were convicted by the Holy Spirit and called for salvation...not because they are doing good works now.

Perseverance of the saints says that a believer WILL endure to the end. Taking 'he that endures to the end will be saved' out of content

Preservation of the saved says that a believer will have the Holy Spirit guiding them in their soul.. but that doesn't mean they will endure all things to the end.

Perseverance of the saints-- salvation is attributed to sanctification.

Preservation of the saved-- salvation is justification.. and justification alone.


Eternal security is NOT perseverance of the saints. The saints in this are pre-chosen in advance and must do good works or they were never saved to begin with... or they were never saved in the first place.

Eternal security is preservation of the saved... the saved in this have each been convicted by the Holy Spirit and called for salvation past tense.. and are now secure regardless of whether are continually faithful or not.

This has probably been thrashed out.. but I just wanted to get this distinction out there.

When most christians think of eternal security-- for some reason it is always 'perseverance of the saints'..

The calvinism idea of perseverance of the saints isn't really eternal security! It is only eternal security for the select few who are continually faithful and will endure to the end!

R.C. Sproul, a notable Reformed Theologian, has mentioned in his teachings (or perhaps it would be better to say musings, lol) that he has thought about starting a new denomination. One of the issues he would like to clarify is that Perseverance, which he does teach as God's keeping power of the Saint, should be changed to Preservation, because that is what is in view in Calvin's teachings. It is taught that persevering is evidence of true salvation, contrasted with those who fall away, becoming apostate.

I agree with most of the OP and the premise which deals with the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) who do take "enduring to the end" out of it's Tribulation context and wrest it to their purposes.


God bless.

 

[Gr8grace]

Perseverance of the saints-- that is those who God has pre-chosen WILL do good works.. and if they aren't doing good works weren't saved to begin with.

Preservation of the saved-- that is those who have called for eternal salvation out of conviction from the Holy Spirit.. are kept by Him regardless of whether they are displaying good works or not. They are 'saved to begin with' because they were convicted by the Holy Spirit and called for salvation...not because they are doing good works now.

Perseverance of the saints says that a believer WILL endure to the end. Taking 'he that endures to the end will be saved' out of content

Preservation of the saved says that a believer will have the Holy Spirit guiding them in their soul.. but that doesn't mean they will endure all things to the end.

Perseverance of the saints-- salvation is attributed to sanctification.

Preservation of the saved-- salvation is justification.. and justification alone.


Eternal security is NOT perseverance of the saints. The saints in this are pre-chosen in advance and must do good works or they were never saved to begin with... or they were never saved in the first place.

Eternal security is preservation of the saved... the saved in this have each been convicted by the Holy Spirit and called for salvation past tense.. and are now secure regardless of whether are continually faithful or not.

This has probably been thrashed out.. but I just wanted to get this distinction out there.

When most christians think of eternal security-- for some reason it is always 'perseverance of the saints'..

The calvinism idea of perseverance of the saints isn't really eternal security! It is only eternal security for the select few who are continually faithful and will endure to the end!

Rom 5:16~~New American Standard Bible
The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.

Rom 11:29~~New American Standard Bible
for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.


John 5:24~~New American Standard Bible
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Simply believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation...............Saved and secure. Acts 16:31

To become a disciple, now that takes work, availability, denying self,picking up our cross.

ALL believers shall enter the kingdom,but not all will inherit the kingdom.

2 Tim 2~~ 12If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;............................deny us reign,inheritance,rank,rewards. But ALL believers shall enter the kingdom.

John 11~~25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”


Great post and distinction Wattie.

 

[williamjordan]

Perseverance of the saints-- that is those who God has pre-chosen WILL do good works.. and if they aren't doing good works weren't saved to begin with.

Preservation of the saved-- that is those who have called for eternal salvation out of conviction from the Holy Spirit.. are kept by Him regardless of whether they are displaying good works or not. They are 'saved to begin with' because they were convicted by the Holy Spirit and called for salvation...not because they are doing good works now.

Perseverance of the saints says that a believer WILL endure to the end. Taking 'he that endures to the end will be saved' out of content

Preservation of the saved says that a believer will have the Holy Spirit guiding them in their soul.. but that doesn't mean they will endure all things to the end.

Perseverance of the saints-- salvation is attributed to sanctification.

Preservation of the saved-- salvation is justification.. and justification alone.


Eternal security is NOT perseverance of the saints. The saints in this are pre-chosen in advance and must do good works or they were never saved to begin with... or they were never saved in the first place.

Eternal security is preservation of the saved... the saved in this have each been convicted by the Holy Spirit and called for salvation past tense.. and are now secure regardless of whether are continually faithful or not.

This has probably been thrashed out.. but I just wanted to get this distinction out there.

When most christians think of eternal security-- for some reason it is always 'perseverance of the saints'..

The calvinism idea of perseverance of the saints isn't really eternal security! It is only eternal security for the select few who are continually faithful and will endure to the end!

This is not quite right. You've essentially redefined Preservation of the Saints as "Preservation of the Saved" and added a few not-quite-correct assumptions to it. It seems to me that what you've done is conflated Lordship Salvation, which some but not all Calvinist adhere to, with Preservation of the Saints, which all Calvinists adhere to. I know this, because I am a Calvinist and I know precisely what I believe and why I believe it.

In fact, just to prove my point, let me refer you to Chp. 17 of the Westminster Confession of Faith, with a special emphasis on the last section,

"I. They whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.

II. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ; the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them; and the nature of the covenant of grace: from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.[SUP]f [/SUP]

III. Nevertheless they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and for a time continue therein: whereby they incur God’s displeasure, and grieve his Holy Spirit; come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts; have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves[SUP]"

[/SUP]​

I'm unsure what reformed material you've been reading, but what you've said here is patently false.

 

[Kefa54]

Holman Christian Standard Bible

JOHN 5:19 Then Jesus replied, "I assure you: The Son is not able to do anything on His own, but only what He sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, the Son also does these things in the same way.

The same is with us. We can do nothing aside of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I get my strength and wisdom From the Holy Spirit. The Spirit Preserves me.

Perseverance is a nice effort but in my flesh. I wont persevere for long. I need the Holy Spirit.

Kefa

 

[williamjordan]

It just dawned on me that I had a brain fart when I wrote the previous post.. "Preservation of the Saints" should read "Perseverance of the Saints." No one spotted that, did they?

 

[P1LGR1M]

This is not quite right. You've essentially redefined Preservation of the Saints as "Preservation of the Saved" and added a few not-quite-correct assumptions to it. It seems to me that what you've done is conflated Lordship Salvation, which some but not all Calvinist adhere to, with Preservation of the Saints, which all Calvinists adhere to. I know this, because I am a Calvinist and I know precisely what I believe and why I believe it.

In fact, just to prove my point, let me refer you to Chp. 17 of the Westminster Confession of Faith, with a special emphasis on the last section,

"I. They whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.

II. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ; the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them; and the nature of the covenant of grace: from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.[SUP]f [/SUP]

III. Nevertheless they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and for a time continue therein: whereby they incur God’s displeasure, and grieve his Holy Spirit; come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts; have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves[SUP]"

[/SUP]​

I'm unsure what reformed material you've been reading, but what you've said here is patently false.

Is there a distinction, from a Calvinistic perspective, between the term saved and saint? Would not the saint be considered "saved" prior to salvation from an eternal perspective?


God bless.

 

[williamjordan]

Is there a distinction, from a Calvinistic perspective, between the term saved and saint? Would not the saint be considered "saved" prior to salvation from an eternal perspective?


God bless.

I think there is definitely some ambiguity in terms. The short answer to the question you posed is simply this: The saint is chosen/elected to be saved at some point in their life, and they will not perish without first being drawn to Christ. For the apostle Paul this disruption came as he intended to persecute the body of Christ.

 

[JGIG]

Perseverance of the saints-- that is those who God has pre-chosen WILL do good works.. and if they aren't doing good works weren't saved to begin with.

Preservation of the saved-- that is those who have called for eternal salvation out of conviction from the Holy Spirit.. are kept by Him regardless of whether they are displaying good works or not. They are 'saved to begin with' because they were convicted by the Holy Spirit and called for salvation...not because they are doing good works now.

Perseverance of the saints says that a believer WILL endure to the end. Taking 'he that endures to the end will be saved' out of content

Preservation of the saved says that a believer will have the Holy Spirit guiding them in their soul.. but that doesn't mean they will endure all things to the end.

Perseverance of the saints-- salvation is attributed to sanctification.

Preservation of the saved-- salvation is justification.. and justification alone.


Eternal security is NOT perseverance of the saints. The saints in this are pre-chosen in advance and must do good works or they were never saved to begin with... or they were never saved in the first place.

Eternal security is preservation of the saved... the saved in this have each been convicted by the Holy Spirit and called for salvation past tense.. and are now secure regardless of whether are continually faithful or not.

This has probably been thrashed out.. but I just wanted to get this distinction out there.

When most christians think of eternal security-- for some reason it is always 'perseverance of the saints'..

The calvinism idea of perseverance of the saints isn't really eternal security! It is only eternal security for the select few who are continually faithful and will endure to the end!

Yep, it's just Calvinism's version of Arminianism, ha.

-JGIG

 

[williamjordan]

Yep, it's just Calvinism's version of Arminianism, ha.

-JGIG

You're definitely going to have to elaborate on this one. What the OP has posted is not Perseverance of the Saints at all. Please, oh please point me at any reformed material that would suggest this. I have offered the Westminster Confession of Faith which expresses the very opposite.

 

[williamjordan]

And there is no disrespect intended in that previous post, I'm just really curious.

 

[JGIG]

You're definitely going to have to elaborate on this one. What the OP has posted is not Perseverance of the Saints at all. Please, oh please point me at any reformed material that would suggest this. I have offered the Westminster Confession of Faith which expresses the very opposite.

And there is no disrespect intended in that previous post, I'm just really curious.

Understood, no disrespect detected .

Here's what I've written elsewhere here at CC, which concludes with this paragraph regarding the 'Perseverance of the Saints' point of Calvinism:

Perseverance of the Saints
Perseverance of the Saints, “(or preservation) of the saints (the word “saints” is used to refer to all who are set apart by God, and not of those who are exceptionally holy, canonized, or in heaven) asserts that since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with or will return to the faith.”

What I have always found to be a disconnect (one of several in Calvinism/Reformed theology) is that those in the Reformed camp claim eternal security, yet if someone falls into sin, they say something like, “Well, that person was never really saved to begin with.”

That is akin to eternal security ‘if’, which is no different than the conditional security stance.​

Like I said, it's Calvinism's version of Arminianism!

-JGIG

 

[wattie]

Replying to lack of scripture:

Well, for eternal security there is John 10:28, John 5:24, Ephesians 2:8-9, John 3:16 among many many other verses.

The distinction between preservation of the saved though, and perseverance of the saints comes about though, when you look at wider context around the likes of James chapter 2 'faith without works is dead' (many christians.. including calvinists.. attribute this quote to receiving eternal.. saying along the lines of 'never saved in the first place if not doing good works'..

When the wider context is about what happens AFTER someone has been saved past tense.. what they are going to do with their faith.

Justification is done.. Sanctification is seperate and happening after that.

And as said in another post 'he who endures to the end will be saved'... again the wider context isn't about receiving eternal life... doesn't mean 'if not faithful now.. not saved to begin with'...

The context around that verse is about deliverance/rescue from trials and tribulation. 'Saved' as in rescued..delivered.. not necessarily eternally saved.


Now.. having typed all this... there are calvinists who pretty much actually believe what I do.... but IMO haven't actually dug into what calvinism REALLY teaches.

But biblical eternal security.. isn't from the armenian or calvin camp.. it's not 'reformed theology'.. it's just seeing scripture as is.. studying it out.. and seeing that good works aren't part of justification.

 

[crossnote]

It looks like glorification springs off of foreknowledge and predestination. ..

Romans 8:29-30 (KJV)
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

And as we tromp through this terra firma, Christ's continual intercession is often over looked.

Romans 8:34 (KJV) Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

 

[Gr8grace]

Understood, no disrespect detected .

Here's what I've written elsewhere here at CC, which concludes with this paragraph regarding the 'Perseverance of the Saints' point of Calvinism:

Perseverance of the Saints
Perseverance of the Saints, “(or preservation) of the saints (the word “saints” is used to refer to all who are set apart by God, and not of those who are exceptionally holy, canonized, or in heaven) asserts that since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with or will return to the faith.”

What I have always found to be a disconnect (one of several in Calvinism/Reformed theology) is that those in the Reformed camp claim eternal security, yet if someone falls into sin, they say something like, “Well, that person was never really saved to begin with.”

That is akin to eternal security ‘if’, which is no different than the conditional security stance.​

Like I said, it's Calvinism's version of Arminianism!

-JGIG

Good post!

This is "todays" Calvinism. I ran into the same thing.

One just says~~If you don't persevere you will lose salvation.

The other says~~ If you don't persevere you were not really saved( lost the salvation you THOUGHT you had.)

They both say the same thing, just different words.

Eternal security is ~~once you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ alone for your salvation, you are saved and secure. Some will stay a babe and some will mature. But all believers are saved and secure.

 

[Gr8grace]

Replying to lack of scripture:

Well, for eternal security there is John 10:28, John 5:24, Ephesians 2:8-9, John 3:16 among many many other verses.

The distinction between preservation of the saved though, and perseverance of the saints comes about though, when you look at wider context around the likes of James chapter 2 'faith without works is dead' (many christians.. including calvinists.. attribute this quote to receiving eternal.. saying along the lines of 'never saved in the first place if not doing good works'..

When the wider context is about what happens AFTER someone has been saved past tense.. what they are going to do with their faith.

Justification is done.. Sanctification is seperate and happening after that.

And as said in another post 'he who endures to the end will be saved'... again the wider context isn't about receiving eternal life... doesn't mean 'if not faithful now.. not saved to begin with'...

The context around that verse is about deliverance/rescue from trials and tribulation. 'Saved' as in rescued..delivered.. not necessarily eternally saved.


Now.. having typed all this... there are calvinists who pretty much actually believe what I do.... but IMO haven't actually dug into what calvinism REALLY teaches.

But biblical eternal security.. isn't from the armenian or calvin camp.. it's not 'reformed theology'.. it's just seeing scripture as is.. studying it out.. and seeing that good works aren't part of justification.

SPOT on Brother.