the rapture

[Ahwatukee]

Tribulation spoken more 20 times in New Testament and no single scripture teach about rapture before tribulation

Hi Mantvvydas,

Regarding the resurrection and catching away and its timing, it is a matter of taking into consideration all of the scriptural information regarding this event. Therefore, one could start off being confident with the fact that because the event is listed in multiple places within scripture, that regardless of timing, it is definitely going to take place. Second, we see that the chronological order of events is that the resurrection and catching away takes place first, which is then followed by God's wrath, in which Paul says, we are not appointed to suffer, which would demonstrate that believers must be removed prior to God's wrath. Then it becomes a matter of establishing what constitutes the beginning of God's wrath. In any case, this is an example of how one would develop the timing of the resurrection and catching away.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Nothing there to prove that theory. Nothing.

It's not a theory if that is what the text states, lol.

You are saying the first Resurrection is not a resurrection?

You closed off what that is referring to.

Not sure how pointing out the text states its a resurrection "closes off" anything.

It CLEARLY points to the "innumerable number"no man can count seen early on In HEAVEN,BY JOHN THAT WERE BEHEADED BY AC.

All those raised at this time seem to be Tribulation Martyrs. Because those martyred prior to the Tribulation are raised at the time of the Rapture, we can say that those seen in Hevaen come out of the Tribulation as well, and that too is made clear in Revelation:

[h=1]Revelation 7:13-15

King James Version (KJV)[/h]

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?


14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

I have NEVER EVER SEEN ONE PERSON WITH YOU GUYS THEORY actually acknowledge this blatantly obvious fact.

Maybe if you just àsk one of us guys can accompdàte you.

Your entire deal rests on this cunning disguise of a manufactured resurrection

It's not mànufactured, its not conjecture, and it is not a theory. It's right there in the text:

[h=1]Revelation 20:4-5

King James Version (KJV)[/h]

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection

of those we can see as already in heaven HAVING BEEN RESURRECTED WITH WASHED ROBES EARLY ON IN THE GT.

How does that deny who is resurrected at Christ's return?


God bless.

YOU POSTRIBS DISINGENUOUSLY OMIT THAT CONTEXT.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The "oil" is something external that had to be secured, which I would suggest, in a context that includes all relevant New Testament passages, is a reference to the Holy Spirit.

The parable applies to Kingdom (millennial) entrance, rather than having a Rapture context. The one demand for entrance is that one is born again, not that they are born again and meeting a specific quota of good works.

God bless.[/QUOTE

Good day P1lgrim1,

"The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’ "

"The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet (Rev.19:7-8). And the door was shut."

"Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!" But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you"

"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour"

Therefore, by looking at the entire parable, the "Oil" represents watchful, readiness. An example of those five virgins without oil would be those believers who would have gone back into the world, living according to the sinful nature and were no longer watching for nor anticipating the Lord's return, but were caught up in the cares of this life.

The parable applies to Kingdom (millennial) entrance, rather than having a Rapture context.

There is really nothing in the parable that would specifically be referring to it as the millennial period, but it fits perfectly with what will happen to those who will have received Christ and will not be ready when the Bridegroom comes to take his Bride to the Father's house. After sealing the covenant with the Church (his Bride), Jesus (the Bridegroom) ascended to His Father’s home to prepare a dwelling place. Just prior to His death, Jesus told His disciples, “My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am” (John 14:1-3).

According to Jewish marriage law, when the time came for nisuin, the groom would return for his bride, accompanied by male escorts. The exact time of his arrival was not usually known in advance (see Matt.25:1-15). The groom’s arrival was announced with a shout. The Church’s Bridegroom has been separated from His Bride now for nearly 2,000 years, and one day He will come for her and snatch her from the earth to meet Him in the air (1 Thes.4:17). We don’t know when exactly this will happen; we must be ready and remain faithful (Luke 21:34-36). Jesus will be accompanied by an angelic escort, preceded by a shout, when He returns for the Church (1 Thes.4:16).

After being whisked from her home, the Jewish bride remained hidden at the groom’s father’s house for seven days. Similarly, the Church will remain “hidden” for a period of seven years, during the prophesied Tribulation period. After the seven days, the Jewish bride left the bridal chamber unveiled; likewise, after seven years the Church will return to earth with Christ, in full view of all (Col.3:4).

In conclusion, the parable of the ten virgins is a perfect fit for the event of the resurrection and catching away, where Jesus as the Bridegroom comes for his Bride, the Church, to take her back to his Father's house.

 

[P1LGR1M]

YOU POSTRIBS DISINGENUOUSLY OMIT THAT CONTEXT.

Sorry, on a tablet so missed the last point.

First, what is disingenuous is saying a point not specifically addressed is somehow wrested by myself or others in the thread.

Secondly...I am a Pre-Tribulation believer. lol

God bless.

 

[Ahwatukee]

It is clearly a resurrection:

Revelation 20:4-5

King James Version (KJV)



4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


We see Resurrection two ways, first it is explicitly stated, and secondly those that live are contrasted with the "rest of the dead."

No conjecture necessary, just an acknowledgment of what is written.

And there is no indication of a Rapture in the first Resurrection, though we could see this as a possibility, as they will reign with Christ one thousand years, and thus will ever be with the Lord.

But it cannot be The Rapture of the Church because in this Resurrection only has dead believers raised again to life, whereas the Rapture of the Church involves the glorification of both living and dead Saints.

God bless.

I would also like to point out that, the words "First Resurrection" used here in Rev.20:4 throws people off and that because they view the word "first" as meaning "only resurrection" and thereby forcing them to fit all resurrections mentioned into the one that takes place here in Rev.20:4. But after studying the scriptures it becomes evident that there are multiple resurrections which take place:

* Christ the first fruits of the first resurrection (1 Cor.15:23)

* The Church at Christ's appearing (1 Cor.15:51-53, 1 Thes.4:13-18)

* The Male Child which is a collective name for the 144,000 (Rev.12:5)

* The two witnesses (Rev.11:11)

* The great tribulation saints (Rev.20:4)

The only conclusion that can be drawn from this is that there are phases or stages to the first resurrection. The first resurrection could be better referred to as the resurrection that takes place prior to the one at the end of the thousand years, which are in opposition to each other as demonstrated in the scriptures below:

"Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years."

"The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended."

Those who take part in any phase of the fist resurrection, the second death which is the lake of fire, will have no power over them. That group that comes to life (Resurrects) at the end of the thousand years will be all of the unfaithful throughout all history who will not be worthy of partaking in the first resurrection and therefore, the second death will have power over them.

 

[P1LGR1M]

The "oil" is something external that had to be secured, which I would suggest, in a context that includes all relevant New Testament passages, is a reference to the Holy Spirit.

The parable applies to Kingdom (millennial) entrance, rather than having a Rapture context. The one demand for entrance is that one is born again, not that they are born again and meeting a specific quota of good works.

God bless.

Good day P1lgrim1,

Good afternoon.

"The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’ "

"The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet (Rev.19:7-8). And the door was shut."

Revelation 19:7-8 is found in a context dealing with the very end of the Tribulation, just às the passage in which the parable of thé Ten Virgins is.

"Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!" But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you"

Which shows tey are not in relationship with Christ, not that they have failed to be alert and watchful.

"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour"

Therefore, by looking at the entire parable, the "Oil" represents watchful, readiness.

What you are forgetting is that they were well aware the Groom had come.

Their plea for oil is similar to Simon asking Peter to pray for him.

No-one will be prepared in regards to the Rapture in the sense that well will or will not recognize it when it takes place, as it is something that has no signs as to when it is going to happen.

That is not the case in regards to the Lord's second coming.

An example of those five virgins without oil would be those believers who would have gone back into the world, living according to the sinful nature and were no longer watching for nor anticipating the Lord's return, but were caught up in the cares of this life.

Let me ask you something: do you think that those who are believers who take a post-trib view will be left behind?

The Church as a whole is Rapture, both living and dead. It doesn't matter if someone does not understand this, they will still be raptured.

Even the post toasties, lol.

There is really nothing in the parable that would specifically be referring to it as the millennial period,

Sure there is, it is found in a distinctly Post Tribulation context.

Secondly, ones faithfulness doesn't determine whether they are raptured or not.

but it fits perfectly with what will happen to those who will have received Christ and will not be ready when the Bridegroom comes to take his Bride to the Father's house. After sealing the covenant with the Church (his Bride), Jesus (the Bridegroom) ascended to His Father’s home to prepare a dwelling place. Just prior to His death, Jesus told His disciples, “My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am” (John 14:1-3).

So where does Christ teach He will cast out those that belong to Him?

According to Jewish marriage law, when the time came for nisuin, the groom would return for his bride, accompanied by male escorts. The exact time of his arrival was not usually known in advance (see Matt.25:1-15). The groom’s arrival was announced with a shout. The Church’s Bridegroom has been separated from His Bride now for nearly 2,000 years, and one day He will come for her and snatch her from the earth to meet Him in the air (1 Thes.4:17). We don’t know when exactly this will happen; we must be ready and remain faithful (Luke 21:34-36).

And I would suggest the marriage supper is the Kingdom itself.

Jesus will be accompanied by an angelic escort, preceded by a shout, when He returns for the Church (1 Thes.4:16).

But it will be Christ who does the gathering personally, rather than the angels.

After being whisked from her home, the Jewish bride remained hidden at the groom’s father’s house for seven days. Similarly, the Church will remain “hidden” for a period of seven years, during the prophesied Tribulation period. After the seven days, the Jewish bride left the bridal chamber unveiled; likewise, after seven years the Church will return to earth with Christ, in full view of all (Col.3:4).

I agree we retu4n with Christ, but again the five foolish Virgins are not known of Christ.

That cannot be said of believers.

In conclusion, the parable of the ten virgins is a perfect fit for the event of the resurrection and catching away, where Jesus as the Bridegroom comes for his Bride, the Church, to take her back to his Father's house.

But a better fit for the establishing of the Kingdom.




God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

I would also like to point out that, the words "First Resurrection" used here in Rev.20:4 throws people off and that because they view the word "first" as meaning "only resurrection" and thereby forcing them to fit all resurrections mentioned into the one that takes place here in Rev.20:4. But after studying the scriptures it becomes evident that there are multiple resurrections which take place:

* Christ the first fruits of the first resurrection (1 Cor.15:23)

* The Church at Christ's appearing (1 Cor.15:51-53, 1 Thes.4:13-18)

* The Male Child which is a collective name for the 144,000 (Rev.12:5)

* The two witnesses (Rev.11:11)

* The great tribulation saints (Rev.20:4)

The only conclusion that can be drawn from this is that there are phases or stages to the first resurrection. The first resurrection could be better referred to as the resurrection that takes place prior to the one at the end of the thousand years, which are in opposition to each other as demonstrated in the scriptures below:

"Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years."

"The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended."

Those who take part in any phase of the fist resurrection, the second death which is the lake of fire, will have no power over them. That group that comes to life (Resurrects) at the end of the thousand years will be all of the unfaithful throughout all history who will not be worthy of partaking in the first resurrection and therefore, the second death will have power over them.

The word "first" can refer to a rank or quality rather than the imposition of sequence as many give it.

There are only two resurrections taught in Scripture in regards to type:

[h=1]John 5:29King James Version (KJV)[/h]29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


God bless.

 

[valiant]

The word "first" can refer to a rank or quality rather than the imposition of sequence as many give it.

There are only two resurrections taught in Scripture in regards to type:

John 5:29King James Version (KJV)

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


God bless.

That refers to only one resurrection. According to those verses Jesus said. 'the hour is coming' when both aspects of the final resurrection will be accomplished. Thus both according to Jesus take place at the same time

The first resurrection was the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Both the saints in heaven in their SOULS and we on earth in our souls have experienced that resurrection together with Him (Eph 2.5-6). That is why we can reign on earth (Rom 5.17; Ephe 2.6) and when we die in heaven (Rev 20.4-5)

 

[P1LGR1M]

That refers to only one resurrection. According to those verses Jesus said. 'the hour is coming' when both aspects of the final resurrection will be accomplished. Thus both according to Jesus take place at the same time

The first resurrection was the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Both the saints in heaven in their SOULS and we on earth in our souls have experienced that resurrection together with Him (Eph 2.5-6). That is why we can reign on earth (Rom 5.17; Ephe 2.6) and when we die in heaven (Rev 20.4-5)

The last time we discussed this you got mad and left the discussion.

Would you have me address your error again? You should go back to the other thread and address the responses to your doctrine there.

The first Resurrection in Revelation 20 is just one of three resurrections spoken of in Revelation (not to exclude discussion of the Resurrection of Antichrist) and the Resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs is separated from the Resurrection at the Great White Throne Judgment by one thousand years.

No point in having to address the same points with you all over again.


God bless.

 

[valiant]

The last time we discussed this you got mad and left the discussion.

I never get mad. I left because it was futile.

Would you have me address your error again?

as what I teach is the truth that would be impossible.

The first Resurrection in Revelation 20 is just one of three resurrections spoken of in Revelation (not to exclude discussion of the Resurrection of Antichrist) and the Resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs is separated from the Resurrection at the Great White Throne Judgment by one thousand years.

As I have pointed out to you before, I prefer to believe Jesus when He said that following His resurrection there would only be one bodily resurrection (John 5.28-29). Any interpretation that disagrees with that is inevitably self-evidently wrong.

No point in having to address the same points with you all over again.

bye

 

[P1LGR1M]

I never get mad. I left because it was futile.



as what I teach is the truth that would be impossible.




As I have pointed out to you before, I prefer to believe Jesus when He said that following His resurrection there would only be one bodily resurrection (John 5.28-29). Any interpretation that disagrees with that is inevitably self-evidently wrong.



bye

Bye.

God bless.

 

[popeye]

The word "first" can refer to a rank or quality rather than the imposition of sequence as many give it.

There are only two resurrections taught in Scripture in regards to type:

John 5:29King James Version (KJV)

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


God bless.

harvest (resurrection/rapture) is 4 parts.

You invoked "1st fruits" in your post in the "pentecost" thread.

Amazing you missed first fruits in the main harvest,Jesus being the first fruits.

Factor in the rapture,the 144k harvested ,then the RIPE FRUIT by Jesus with a sickle,sitting on a cloud,THEN THE "OVER RIPE FRUIT. to judgement.

The 4 part deal ends DURING THE GT.

 

[popeye]

It is clearly a resurrection:

Revelation 20:4-5

King James Version (KJV)



4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


We see Resurrection two ways, first it is explicitly stated, and secondly those that live are contrasted with the "rest of the dead."

No conjecture necessary, just an acknowledgment of what is written.

And there is no indication of a Rapture in the first Resurrection, though we could see this as a possibility, as they will reign with Christ one thousand years, and thus will ever be with the Lord.

But it cannot be The Rapture of the Church because in this Resurrection only has dead believers raised again to life, whereas the Rapture of the Church involves the glorification of both living and dead Saints.


God bless.

No conjecture necessary, just an acknowledgment of what is written.

You are saying WHAT IS NOT THERE.


But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
It does NOT SAY those martyrs were RESURRECTED AT THE END OF THE GT.
It simply DOES NOT. You READ THAT INTO IT. It is saying that the first resurrection (ALL STAGES WITH JESUS AS FIRSTFRUITS ALONG WITH THE RESURRECTED PATRIARCHS RESIDING IN PARADISE) IS OVER. Not that they were resurrected after the gt. Read it again. It does not say what you are inferring

It is obviously referring to the "innumerable number" IN HEAVEN RESURRECTED WITH WASHED ROBES.

What do you think happened to them at the end of the gt? Do you think they disappeared?

You absolutely must take it out of THAT context to make it work.

Tell me this,if the word is true and the ac murders EVERY HUMAN ON THE PLANET REFUSING THE MARK, how in the world is the innumerable number NOT THOSE HONORED IN REV 20????

See that??? You literally MUST take that off the table.

Show me the 4 part harvest of the field in your theory.

You will need Jesus removed as first fruits.

There is no beheaded martyrs raised from the dead at the end of the gt. The innumerable number wear robes in heaven during the gt. Those under the altar before the resurrection HAD NO ROBES. THEY WERE DISEMBODIED SPIRITS AND WERE NOT ALLOWED IN HEAVEN'S GENERAL POPULATION. they resided under the altar.

Now,during the gt the Martyrs are outside from under the altar. Why? Because they are raised from the dead. They are (the innumerable number) the completion of the main harvest of 1 thes 4. They are those left behind described in mat 25 as the foolish virgins.

You cannot include this context in your theory. It leaves a million holes.

 

[P1LGR1M]

I've had all's I can stands, I can stands no more...

Sorry, just had to say it...

harvest (resurrection/rapture) is 4 parts..

No, Popeye, the Rapture of the Church is a singular event at which time the Church in her entirety is raised in glorified form at the same time.

This is not the Resurrection in Revelation 11, nor the Resurrection s described in Revelation 20.

You invoked "1st fruits" in your post in the "pentecost" thread.
.

Actually I did not, I simply responded to a question as to why the day of Pentecost was the day the Lord chose to send the Comforter.

Amazing you missed first fruits in the main harvest,Jesus being the first fruits.
.

Your argument is as syllogistic as it is false. I consistently point out that Christ is the first fruits from the dead, this goes in hand with my view concerning the error of most post trib believers who think the Resurrection in Revelation 20:4 is the first Resurrection in terms of sequence.

Factor in the rapture,
.

Not sure why we wouldn't seeing...its a thread about the Rapture.

the 144k harvested
.

They are not raptured, they are sealed, and again they are the only ones in that event, even as Tribulation Martyrs are the only ones in the Resurrection identified as the First Resurrection.

,then the RIPE FRUIT by Jesus with a sickle,sitting on a cloud.

No one is raptured then either, though if you can show that in the text is be happy to see it.

God bless.

,THEN THE "OVER RIPE FRUIT. to judgement.

The 4 part deal ends DURING THE GT

.

 

[popeye]

Good afternoon.



Revelation 19:7-8 is found in a context dealing with the very end of the Tribulation, just às the passage in which the parable of thé Ten Virgins is.



Which shows tey are not in relationship with Christ, not that they have failed to be alert and watchful.



What you are forgetting is that they were well aware the Groom had come.

Their plea for oil is similar to Simon asking Peter to pray for him.

No-one will be prepared in regards to the Rapture in the sense that well will or will not recognize it when it takes place, as it is something that has no signs as to when it is going to happen.

That is not the case in regards to the Lord's second coming.






Let me ask you something: do you think that those who are believers who take a post-trib view will be left behind?

The Church as a whole is Rapture, both living and dead. It doesn't matter if someone does not understand this, they will still be raptured.

Even the post toasties, lol.





Sure there is, it is found in a distinctly Post Tribulation context.

Secondly, ones faithfulness doesn't determine whether they are raptured or not.



So where does Christ teach He will cast out those that belong to Him?




And I would suggest the marriage supper is the Kingdom itself.



But it will be Christ who does the gathering personally, rather than the angels.




I agree we retu4n with Christ, but again the five foolish Virgins are not known of Christ.

That cannot be said of believers.




But a better fit for the establishing of the Kingdom.




God bless.

I agree we retu4n with Christ, but again the five foolish Virgins are not known of Christ.

That cannot be said of believers.

The 5 foolish are believers.
They have light
they had limited oil
They are virgins (undefiled,pure)
They were waiting for Jesus

They were believers. Born again believers.

So where does Christ teach He will cast out those that belong to Him?

This is 180 out of whack.

They canceled themselves. They disqualified themselves. They got the covenant part right and then were not intimate.
Oil is a type of the HS.
They had a mental relationship with Jesus. They stopped at salvation. Never went higher.

It is like owning a dog but never touching it. Never loving it. That is the 5 foolish

 

[popeye]

I've had all's I can stands, I can stands no more...

Sorry, just had to say it...




No, Popeye, the Rapture of the Church is a singular event at which time the Church in her entirety is raised in glorified form at the same time.

This is not the Resurrection in Revelation 11, nor the Resurrection s described in Revelation 20.




Actually I did not, I simply responded to a question as to why the day of Pentecost was the day the Lord chose to send the Comforter.



Your argument is as syllogistic as it is false. I consistently point out that Christ is the first fruits from the dead, this goes in hand with my view concerning the error of most post trib believers who think the Resurrection in Revelation 20:4 is the first Resurrection in terms of sequence.



Not sure why we wouldn't seeing...its a thread about the Rapture.




They are not raptured, they are sealed, and again they are the only ones in that event, even as Tribulation Martyrs are the only ones in the Resurrection identified as the First Resurrection.




No one is raptured then either, though if you can show that in the text is be happy to see it.

God bless.

They are not raptured, they are sealed, and again they are the only ones in that event, even as Tribulation Martyrs are the only ones in the Resurrection identified as the First Resurrection.

Read it again. They are in heaven,either ruptured or raised from the dead during the gt.

No, Popeye, the Rapture of the Church is a singular event at which time the Church in her entirety is raised in glorified form at the same time.

Mat 25 testifies you are wrong. There are about 1/2 left behind.

You need to read mat 25 again. you will either go with what is said by Jesus or get real creative with a no brainer parable.

 

[P1LGR1M]

You are saying WHAT IS NOT THERE.


But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
It does NOT SAY those martyrs were RESURRECTED AT THE END OF THE GT.

It does.

The timeline goes like this:

Christ returns.

The enemies of God which have been gathered against Him are destroyed.

Satan is bound.

The Tribulation Martyrs are raised.

Satan is loosed.

He is cast into Hell.

The enemies of God are physically destroyed.

The universe passes away.

The Great White throne is set up.

The dead, who were not raised a thousand years ealier, are raised and cast into Hell.

Its all right there in Revelation 19-20.

It simply DOES NOT. You READ THAT INTO IT. It is saying that the first resurrection (ALL STAGES WITH JESUS AS FIRSTFRUITS ALONG WITH THE RESURRECTED PATRIARCHS RESIDING IN PARADISE) IS OVER. Not that they were resurrected after the gt. Read it again. It does not say what you are inferring

It does. Sorry that Scripture disagrees with what you want to believe. Nyuck nyuck nyuck nyuck nyuck...

It is obviously referring to the "innumerable number" IN HEAVEN RESURRECTED WITH WASHED ROBES.

I wouldn't disagree with that because having died in the Tribulation, they are certainly raised at this time as well, but that doesn't mean they are all present under the altar at that time:

[h=1]Revelation 6:9-11

King James Version (KJV)[/h]

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:


10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?


11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

What do you think happened to them at the end of the gt? Do you think they disappeared?

You absolutely must take it out of THAT context to make it work.

Don't have to take out something I never brought in, now do I?

Tell me this,if the word is true and the ac murders EVERY HUMAN ON THE PLANET REFUSING THE MARK, how in the world is the innumerable number NOT THOSE HONORED IN REV 20????

The Antichrist does not murder everyone refusing the mark.

According to Matthew 25 there are believers who live through the Tribulation.

See that??? You literally MUST take that off the table.

It has never been on my table my friend.

Show me the 4 part harvest of the field in your theory.

There is no four parts to the Rapture of the Church, this the only theory in our discussion.

The Lord was not Raptured as the Church will be. He was glorified but He is the One Who had power to take His life back up. We don't.

You will need Jesus removed as first fruits.

Not at all. I just don't get that confused with the Rapture of the Church.

There is no beheaded martyrs raised from the dead at the end of the gt.

It's right there in the text:


[h=1]Revelation 20:4

King James Version (KJV)[/h]

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The innumerable number wear robes in heaven during the gt. Those under the altar before the resurrection HAD NO ROBES. THEY WERE DISEMBODIED SPIRITS AND WERE NOT ALLOWED IN HEAVEN'S GENERAL POPULATION. they resided under the altar.

Where exactly is the altar, Popeye?

Now,during the gt the Martyrs are outside from under the altar. Why? Because they are raised from the dead.

After the Tribulation, not during.

They are (the innumerable number) the completion of the main harvest of 1 thes 4.

Sorry, but all of the dead in Christ are raised before the Tribulation begins.

They are those left behind described in mat 25 as the foolish virgins.

The foolish Virgins are not even believers. Unless you think one cañ be saved without being known by Christ.

You cannot include this context in your theory.

Truer words have never been spoken.

It leaves a million holes.

No holes, lol, at my table. But apparent holes in the doggy bag your toting around.


God bless.

 

[popeye]

It does.

The timeline goes like this:

Christ returns.

The enemies of God which have been gathered against Him are destroyed.

Satan is bound.

The Tribulation Martyrs are raised.

Satan is loosed.

He is cast into Hell.

The enemies of God are physically destroyed.

The universe passes away.

The Great White throne is set up.

The dead, who were not raised a thousand years ealier, are raised and cast into Hell.

Its all right there in Revelation 19-20.




It does. Sorry that Scripture disagrees with what you want to believe. Nyuck nyuck nyuck nyuck nyuck...






I wouldn't disagree with that because having died in the Tribulation, they are certainly raised at this time as well, but that doesn't mean they are all present under the altar at that time:

Revelation 6:9-11

King James Version (KJV)



9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:


10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?


11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.





Don't have to take out something I never brought in, now do I?





The Antichrist does not murder everyone refusing the mark.

According to Matthew 25 there are believers who live through the Tribulation.




It has never been on my table my friend.





There is no four parts to the Rapture of the Church, this the only theory in our discussion.

The Lord was not Raptured as the Church will be. He was glorified but He is the One Who had power to take His life back up. We don't.





Not at all. I just don't get that confused with the Rapture of the Church.



It's right there in the text:


Revelation 20:4

King James Version (KJV)



4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.






Where exactly is the altar, Popeye?





After the Tribulation, not during.



Sorry, but all of the dead in Christ are raised before the Tribulation begins.




The foolish Virgins are not even believers. Unless you think one cañ be saved without being known by Christ.





Truer words have never been spoken.








No holes, lol, at my table. But apparent holes in the doggy bag your toting around.


God bless.

The foolish Virgins are not even believers. Unless you think one cañ be saved without being known by Christ.

I am not the one depicting heathen/unsaved as chaste and pure.

As I said,you will either take Jesus words as he spoke or get real creative.

Now,show me this dynamic of the unsaved as chaste pure and undefiled (virgins)

remember ,you are the one with the "correct",infallable position as you describe yourself.

Just seems odd you would disguise that no brainer parable.

 

[popeye]

It does.

The timeline goes like this:

Christ returns.

The enemies of God which have been gathered against Him are destroyed.

Satan is bound.

The Tribulation Martyrs are raised.

Satan is loosed.

He is cast into Hell.

The enemies of God are physically destroyed.

The universe passes away.

The Great White throne is set up.

The dead, who were not raised a thousand years ealier, are raised and cast into Hell.

Its all right there in Revelation 19-20.




It does. Sorry that Scripture disagrees with what you want to believe. Nyuck nyuck nyuck nyuck nyuck...






I wouldn't disagree with that because having died in the Tribulation, they are certainly raised at this time as well, but that doesn't mean they are all present under the altar at that time:

Revelation 6:9-11

King James Version (KJV)



9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:


10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?


11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.





Don't have to take out something I never brought in, now do I?





The Antichrist does not murder everyone refusing the mark.

According to Matthew 25 there are believers who live through the Tribulation.




It has never been on my table my friend.





There is no four parts to the Rapture of the Church, this the only theory in our discussion.

The Lord was not Raptured as the Church will be. He was glorified but He is the One Who had power to take His life back up. We don't.





Not at all. I just don't get that confused with the Rapture of the Church.



It's right there in the text:


Revelation 20:4

King James Version (KJV)



4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.






Where exactly is the altar, Popeye?





After the Tribulation, not during.



Sorry, but all of the dead in Christ are raised before the Tribulation begins.




The foolish Virgins are not even believers. Unless you think one cañ be saved without being known by Christ.





Truer words have never been spoken.








No holes, lol, at my table. But apparent holes in the doggy bag your toting around.


God bless.

The timeline goes like this:

Christ returns.

The enemies of God which have been gathered against Him are destroyed.

Satan is bound.

The Tribulation Martyrs are raised.

Satan is loosed.

He is cast into Hell.

The enemies of God are physically destroyed.

The universe passes away.

The Great White throne is set up.

The dead, who were not raised a thousand years ealier, are raised and cast into Hell.

Its all right there in Revelation 19-20.

I didn't know it was possible at this late hour to give an overview EXCLUDING THE marriage,and the supper but you somehow omitted it.

 

[DP]

The Tribulation is God's wrath, my friend:


Revelation 6:15-17

King James Version (KJV)

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

God bless.

How is it that you don't understand those Rev.6:15-17 verses occur on the day of Christ's return?

God's cup of wrath upon the wicked occurs on the final day of this world, and not before. The time of "great tribulation" is the devil's time of wrath upon the saints.

So your doctrine has those things backwards.