The Immaculate Conception Error

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Tintin

Guest
#21
What I find ironic is that Protestants criticize the RCC for Immaculate Conception of Mary, but they do the very same thing respective of who Christ is in his humanity.

The RCC adopted the theory of Original Sin at the Council of Trent in the mid 17th century. It was only later that they realized their mistake and instead of abandoning the theory, they created the Immaculate Conception theory.
Most, if not all Protestants, hold to the Original Sin theory as well. To overcome this error I have read all kinds of end-arounds that try to explain that Jesus did not have a sin nature which is the basis of Original Sin.

So, while some of you as Protestants castigate the RCC you do the very same thing as they did.
Rubbish. The Original Sin belief is much older than the mid-17th century. Where do you come up with this poppy-cock?
 
Oct 3, 2015
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#22
The problem with this is if Jesus had a fallin nature then HE was not without sin and was not perfect lamb without spot or blemish.
Here we go again....

1] He isn't a lamb. That's a metaphor.

2] He was without spot, meaning He never sinned.

Are you telling me that if Jesus as the son of man assumed our sinful nature that would make Him a sinner? If so, prove it!
 
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#25
Are you telling me that if Jesus as the son of man assumed our sinful nature that would make Him a sinner? If so, prove it!

Both Calvin and Luther believed that "humans inherit Adamic guilt and are in a state of sin from the moment of conception"

Let's break this down:

1]
humans inherit Adamic guilt

2] humans are in a state of sin from the moment of conception

# 1 is false....it's unbibical according to Romans chapter 12

# 2 is correct.


 
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#26
Humans stand condemned because Adam passed to all of us his life indwelt with a fallen human nature. But condemnation isn't the same as guilt!

Guilt involves volition. I cannot be guilty of Adam's sin unless I repeat it. Adam's sin was he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He disobeyed God. I never ate of that tree and therefore I cant' be guilty of his sin.

However, by birth I stand condemned, not because I've sinned, but because I share Adam's life indwelt with sin.
 
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Mitspa

Guest
#27
Another Jesus was a sinner thread? You people are so biblically ignorant
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
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#29
Rubbish. The Original Sin belief is much older than the mid-17th century. Where do you come up with this poppy-cock?
Where did I post that Original Sin originated in the 17th century?
 
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#30
Where did I post that Original Sin originated in the 17th century?

Right there: This is quoted from you, "The RCC adopted the theory of Original Sin at the Council of Trent in the mid 17th century." Original sin is biblical. If it was not why did we need an Adam who was sinless, who was not corrupted by the sinful nature, who died on the cross for our sins, etc? If there was no original sin, there would be no need for Jesus, anybody can be saved through their good works, and it would be like Islam (without the beheading, crucifixions, chopping off of hands like the Code of Hammurabi, etc of course). Which Christianity is not. I am not a Catholic and this is scriptural truth. I plead with you to read the Bible all the way and you will see this concept. This concept is not a theory made by the Roman Catholic Church, but a concept seen in the Bible. God bless.
 
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Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
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#31
Right there: This is quoted from you, "The RCC adopted the theory of Original Sin at the Council of Trent in the mid 17th century." Original sin is biblical. If it was not why did we need an Adam who was sinless, who was not corrupted by the sinful nature, who died on the cross for our sins, etc. If there was no original sin, there would be no need for Jesus and it would be like Islam. Which Christianity is not. I am not a Catholic. God bless.
Never stated it in the above paragraph.

What I stated is that the RCC adopted the theory in the mid 17th century. They were actually using the foundation long before that. Augustine is the one that originated the idea. Anselm incorporated some of the tenets in his Satisfaction theory of atonement. Thomas Aquinas and Francis of Assisi employed the theory in some of their theologies.

All of the reformers, Luther, Calvin, Knox, Wesley all adopted the Original Sin theory.

However, as a theory it is a false theory, it is not scriptural. I don't think, as you state above, that you even understand the theory.
 
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#32
Never stated it in the above paragraph.

What I stated is that the RCC adopted the theory in the mid 17th century. They were actually using the foundation long before that. Augustine is the one that originated the idea. Anselm incorporated some of the tenets in his Satisfaction theory of atonement. Thomas Aquinas and Francis of Assisi employed the theory in some of their theologies.

All of the reformers, Luther, Calvin, Knox, Wesley all adopted the Original Sin theory.

However, as a theory it is a false theory, it is not scriptural. I don't think, as you state above, that you even understand the theory.
It is not a false theory (in fact it is not a theory but a concept), it is scriptural. Jesus was not born with a sinful nature, if he was he would cease being fully God and fully man and would only be fully man and not able to save anyone from their sins. I understand the theory, please read the Bible. God bless.
 
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#33
Jesus was not born with a sinful nature, if he was he would cease being fully God and fully man and would only be fully man and not able to save anyone from their sins. .
That's nonsense....Where's your Scripture?

Jesus is God. He has always been God. There was never a time when He was not God. There was never a time that He didn't exist as God. He lives in eternity, but at the incarnation Jesus as God was united to our fallen life in the womb of Mary. That life was called the son of man. As the son of man Christ was "born of a woman" and "the seed of David". That means Christ as the son of man took our flesh indwelt with our bent-towards-self, except in His case He never sinned because He was born spiritually alive.
 
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kaylagrl

Guest
#34


That's nonsense....Where's your Scripture?

Jesus is God. He has always been God. There was never a time when He was not God. There was never a time that He didn't exist as God. He lives in eternity, but at the incarnation Jesus as God was united to our fallen life in the womb of Mary. That life was called the son of man. As the son of man Christ was "born of a woman" and "the seed of David". That means Christ as the son of man took our flesh indwelt with our bent-towards-self, except in His case He never sinned because He was born spiritually alive.
So when Christ died for sins He died for His own?!
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
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#35
It is not a false theory (in fact it is not a theory but a concept), it is scriptural. Jesus was not born with a sinful nature, if he was he would cease being fully God and fully man and would only be fully man and not able to save anyone from their sins. I understand the theory, please read the Bible. God bless.
If you understand the theory, then you don't understand scripture. Original Sin is NOT a scriptural concept/theory. If you think it is, places cite the texts or contexts that actually support the concept?
 
Jan 25, 2015
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#36
Jesus is without sin because he is the Word made flesh as John says, not because he was born without a natural sinful father.
The answer to this is actually simple, we all have sinful seed because as you said we have sinful fathers. Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit in Mary, we all understand that but something interesting is that once an egg is fertilised in a woman's womb there is no blood coming from the mommy to the fetus. Since the first minute this little baby/fetus will create its own blood.

Jesus was without sin because His seed was without sin.

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
 
Jan 25, 2015
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#37
Here we go again....

1] He isn't a lamb. That's a metaphor.

2] He was without spot, meaning He never sinned.

Are you telling me that if Jesus as the son of man assumed our sinful nature that would make Him a sinner? If so, prove it!
Jesus took all our sins upon himself :) he became sin for you and me. It was His choice to save us all.

He became a sinner by choice but never sinned. (hope this make sense???)
 
K

KennethC

Guest
#38



Both Calvin and Luther believed that "humans inherit Adamic guilt and are in a state of sin from the moment of conception"

Let's break this down:

1]
humans inherit Adamic guilt

2] humans are in a state of sin from the moment of conception

# 1 is false....it's unbibical according to Romans chapter 12

# 2 is correct.


Number 2 is false also because the Word of God shows in the OT there is a age of accountability, and until that age is reached sins will not be held against the individual because they do not yet understand right from wrong.

Also......

Ezekiel 18:20

The soul that sinneth , it shall die . The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
 
Jan 25, 2015
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#39
Number 2 is false also because the Word of God shows in the OT there is a age of accountability, and until that age is reached sins will not be held against the individual because they do not yet understand right from wrong.

Also......

Ezekiel 18:20

The soul that sinneth , it shall die . The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Amen brother, we are born with a sinful nature from sinful seed...
 
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Mitspa

Guest
#40
Jesus was the Word made flesh...anyone who believes that flesh was sinful must also believe the Word itself is sinful.