Does the initial burst of faith require works to NOT be dead?

[crossnote]

From the hymn "How Can it Be?"

Long my imprisoned spirit lay,
Fast bound in sin and nature’s night;
Thine eye diffused a quickening ray—
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.

And Can It Be That I Should Gain?

 

[james57]

Maybe if someone were trying to make that point in the first place. In this case it wasn't even relevant. And maybe if you hadn't said the reason for suddenly veering off course was because of a post by me, when in truth I hadn't even made that post until AFTER you did that.

You asked me if my goal was to impress God. I cant imagine why you asked me that from what I had written.

The only people who try to impress God are those who believe their works/ how well they obey the law will gain them entry into heaven. I don't take that view
I know I have no righteousness before God of observing the law as Paul states. I am sure you know that also

 

[justpassinthrough]

We know that faith without works is dead but if a faith is dead, there is in implication that it was once alive. I don't believe James was talking about dead in the sense of a stone or a butter knife or anything else that was never alive. We don't use the word dead that way and I don't think James was using it that way either. When we say something is dead, it's normally something that used to be alive.

That would mean a faith which is now dead because of zero works was once alive despite zero works. If that's the case, then for a period of time, we have a case of living faith with zero works. From that perspective, works appears to be something which sustains a faith that initially started out with no works at all. Works becomes a type of fuel which (among other things) keeps the faith from dying. Works are still necessary but the first burst of living faith can occur without works.

Does the initial burst of faith require works to NOT be dead?

The works that James gives reference to is obedience.


Faith without the work or corresponding act of obedience is dead.


Works = The effort obedience requires.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
James 2:21

The way faith comes to you is by hearing God speak to you.

When God speaks to you, you now have faith [if you have ears to hear].

If you don't do what God tells you to do, then the faith you have, by God speaking to you is dead.

The way faith produces a divine result is when you obey the Voice of God.

Dead works are works that we were supposed to do, but disobeyed.

Dead faith can not produce a divine result, just as a body without the spirit is dead and does not produce anything, except maybe a bad smell.

Whenever we see the phrase "by faith", then we know there has to be a corresponding act of obedience involve.

7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:7-8


Who saved Noah's Household?


Noah or God?


Now apply that to salvation by faith.


What is the command from God concerning salvation?



JLB

 

[justpassinthrough]

We know that faith without works is dead but if a faith is dead, there is in implication that it was once alive. I don't believe James was talking about dead in the sense of a stone or a butter knife or anything else that was never alive. We don't use the word dead that way and I don't think James was using it that way either. When we say something is dead, it's normally something that used to be alive.

That would mean a faith which is now dead because of zero works was once alive despite zero works. If that's the case, then for a period of time, we have a case of living faith with zero works. From that perspective, works appears to be something which sustains a faith that initially started out with no works at all. Works becomes a type of fuel which (among other things) keeps the faith from dying. Works are still necessary but the first burst of living faith can occur without works.

The works that James gives reference to is obedience.


Faith without the work or corresponding act of obedience is dead.


Works = The effort obedience requires.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
James 2:21

The way faith comes to you is by hearing God speak to you.

When God speaks to you, you now have faith [if you have ears to hear].

If you don't do what God tells you to do, then the faith you have, by God speaking to you is dead.

The way faith produces a divine result is when you obey the Voice of God.

Dead works are works that we were supposed to do, but disobeyed.

Dead faith can not produce a divine result, just as a body without the spirit is dead and does not produce anything, except maybe a bad smell.

Whenever we see the phrase "by faith", then we know there has to be a corresponding act of obedience involve.

7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:7-8


Who saved Noah's Household?


Noah or God?


Now apply that to salvation by faith.


What is the command from God concerning salvation?



justpassinthrough

 

[Babylonisfalling]

You asked me if my goal was to impress God. I cant imagine why you asked me that from what I had written.

The only people who try to impress God are those who believe their works/ how well they obey the law will gain them entry into heaven. I don't take that view
I know I have no righteousness before God of observing the law as Paul states. I am sure you know that also

Because you're the only one talking about impressing God.
I believe my response was that God ISN'T impressed by our works. But yes, IF you have a person who thinks works will gain them heaven, then that person might be thinking he could somehow impress God. Best to ask the person first though...especially since that courtesy was afforded you.

 

[Babylonisfalling]

The works that James gives reference to is obedience.


Faith without the work or corresponding act of obedience is dead.


Works = The effort obedience requires.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
James 2:21

The way faith comes to you is by hearing God speak to you.

When God speaks to you, you now have faith [if you have ears to hear].

If you don't do what God tells you to do, then the faith you have, by God speaking to you is dead.

The way faith produces a divine result is when you obey the Voice of God.

Dead works are works that we were supposed to do, but disobeyed.

Dead faith can not produce a divine result, just as a body without the spirit is dead and does not produce anything, except maybe a bad smell.

Whenever we see the phrase "by faith", then we know there has to be a corresponding act of obedience involve.

7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:7-8


Who saved Noah's Household?


Noah or God?


Now apply that to salvation by faith.


What is the command from God concerning salvation?



justpassinthrough

Work equals doing something.

Volunteering at a homeless shelter, etc

 

[james57]

Because you're the only one talking about impressing God.
I believe my response was that God ISN'T impressed by our works. But yes, IF you have a person who thinks works will gain them heaven, then that person might be thinking he could somehow impress God. Best to ask the person first though...especially since that courtesy was afforded you.

I simply gave the example of the Pharisee as people who did works that didn't impress God, in other words God did not accept their works. I am amazed it has led to your responses since. I would have thought a simple Amen would have been a better response, though of course you are entitled to react as you have

 

[valiant]

We know that faith without works is dead but if a faith is dead, there is in implication that it was once alive. I don't believe James was talking about dead in the sense of a stone or a butter knife or anything else that was never alive. We don't use the word dead that way and I don't think James was using it that way either. When we say something is dead, it's normally something that used to be alive.

That would mean a faith which is now dead because of zero works was once alive despite zero works. If that's the case, then for a period of time, we have a case of living faith with zero works. From that perspective, works appears to be something which sustains a faith that initially started out with no works at all. Works becomes a type of fuel which (among other things) keeps the faith from dying. Works are still necessary but the first burst of living faith can occur without works.

I think that you have the wholly wrong idea of what faith is. Faith is response towards God's offer of mercy and salvation. It grows as we come to know God more day by day. Because God saves us and gives us a new life and fills us with His love we begin to do good for others. But that doing of good does not bolster our faith. It may indeed depress it. if we did not maintain our fellowship with God our works would destroy us. So we are saved by faith alone, both initially and continually. Works is simply a by-product.

 

[Babylonisfalling]

I think that you have the wholly wrong idea of what faith is. Faith is response towards God's offer of mercy and salvation. It grows as we come to know God more day by day. Because God saves us and gives us a new life and fills us with His love we begin to do good for others. But that doing of good does not bolster our faith. It may indeed depress it. if we did not maintain our fellowship with God our works would destroy us. So we are saved by faith alone, both initially and continually. Works is simply a by-product.

But since faith without works is dead, then works is obviously a necessary part of a living faith.

 

[Babylonisfalling]

I simply gave the example of the Pharisee as people who did works that didn't impress God, in other words God did not accept their works. I am amazed it has led to your responses since. I would have thought a simple Amen would have been a better response, though of course you are entitled to react as you have

No...after I simply questioned where the Pharisee bit came from (since it was wholly off subject from where we were at the time) you told me it was because of a post from me that hadn't even been posted at the time.

Here's where we actually were at the that time

Doing works solely for the sake of attaining heaven is not the best reason for doing works. I also believe however, that a person can start from that reason and mature into the preferred reason for doing works.

A child is taught to share, sometimes forced to share. But an adult can share for more appropriate reasons.

There are Christians who do works not because they want to but because as a Christian they are supposed to do so. They are still doing it because of their Christian faith though. Fast forward a year or two, they can be doing it because they've gotten over their carnal selfishness because they forced themselves to do what they didn't want to do and discovered the spiritual rewards of helping others in accordance with the will of God.

 

[james57]

No...after I simply questioned where the Pharisee bit came from (since it was wholly off subject from where we were at the time) you told me it was because of a post from me that hadn't even been posted at the time.

Here's where we actually were at the that time

Well we will have to agree to disagree, an example of the Pharisees doing works for the wrong reasons that weren't accepted seems a relevant response to endorse what you wrote. I apologise if the response upset you. I will make sure not to respond to any of your posts in future
Hope you have a great day
God bless

 

[VCO]

The works that James gives reference to is obedience.


Faith without the work or corresponding act of obedience is dead.


Works = The effort obedience requires.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
James 2:21

. . .

Here is a DEEPER Understanding of James 2:21.

Genuine Faith in GOD, will PRODUCE, NOT may produce; an ongoing desire to obey.

Head knowledge about GOD does NOT PRODUCE that sincere from the heart desire to obey.

SO WHAT IS IN THE HEART OF THE GENUINE BELIEVER WHO HAS RECEIVED JESUS AS LORD, MEANING SUBMITTING TO HIM AS MASTER?

GOD told us what HE would put in our hearts that would produce a desire to obey, but most people who claim to be Christians have OVER LOOKED this verse:

Romans 5:3-5 (NRSV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And not only that, but we also boast in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] and endurance produces character, and character produces hope,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] and hope does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit that has been given to us.

AND HOW DO WE KNOW THAT GOD'S LOVE will produce a desire to obey HIM?

1 John 5:3 (NRSV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For the love of God is this, that we obey his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome,

John 14:15 (NRSV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

No desire to OBEY GOD, equals the fact that the Holy Spirit has not yet entered that heart.

 

[Babylonisfalling]

Here is a DEEPER Understanding of James 2:21.

Genuine Faith in GOD, will PRODUCE, NOT may produce; an ongoing desire to obey.

Head knowledge about GOD does NOT PRODUCE that sincere from the heart desire to obey.

SO WHAT IS IN THE HEART OF THE GENUINE BELIEVER WHO HAS RECEIVED JESUS AS LORD, MEANING SUBMITTING TO HIM AS MASTER?

GOD told us what HE would put in our hearts that would produce a desire to obey, but most people who claim to be Christians have OVER LOOKED this verse:

Romans 5:3-5 (NRSV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And not only that, but we also boast in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] and endurance produces character, and character produces hope,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] and hope does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit that has been given to us.

AND HOW DO WE KNOW THAT GOD'S LOVE will produce a desire to obey HIM?

1 John 5:3 (NRSV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For the love of God is this, that we obey his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome,

John 14:15 (NRSV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

No desire to OBEY GOD, equals the fact that the Holy Spirit has not yet entered that heart.

Desiring to obey God is not a work......ASSUMING that was your point.

 

[VCO]

Desiring to obey God is not a work......ASSUMING that was your point.

NO, the tense that John uses frequently is the Greek primary perfect tense; which we DO NOT HAVE IN ENGLISH. We only have 3 primary verb tenses, while Greek has 4. That fourth tense, implies an ONGOING Lifestyle of striving to do that verb.
That desire to obey, is a direct bi-product of GOD's LOVE that was POURED into our hearts, the very moment we were born again. The absence of it, validates that one is not yet born again. HENSE, the presence of it, is a WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT and NOT something we can pat ourselves on the back for:

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, {That Agape Love is produced by God's Love, which the Holy Spirit poured into our hearts.}
you will keep My commands. {That is the ongoing desire and striving to keep His commands, NOT OUT OF THE POWER OF OUR HUMAN INTELLECT OR WILL, but purely by the power of the holy Spirit and the influence of GOD's LOVE being present in our hearts.}

THEREFORE:

1 John 2:4 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” yet doesn't keep His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

That word keep is in that fourth Greek tense that implies that ongoing desire and striving to KEEP via a Holy Spirit empowered lifestyle.

NO, obedience does not produce saving faith; the opposite is absolutely true however. Genuine born again faith, will manifest that the LOVE OF GOD really is in that heart, via that ongoing desire and striving to obey HIM.

Romans 5:5 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

IF GOD's LOVE has truly been sown into one's heart, it will produce a harvest of striving to obey HIM.

SALVATION TRULY IS BY GRACE AND NOT BY ANY OF OUR WORKS.

 

[weakness]

I'll put you in the NO column, the initial burst of faith does not require works to be a living faith.

The natural man understands not the things of the spirit.So God had to give faith or understanding, then what do you do with the understanding? Believe or disbelieve{works} Despise not the day of small things.

 

[weakness]

The two thread pose two different questions within the same subject.
One thread asks if we're saved with a dead faith.
The other thread asks if faith can be initially alive even though there are not yet any works involved.

​ except a seed fall in the ground and die, it wont bring forth any fruit

 

[weakness]

NOT EXACTLY CORRECT. That is a false assumption, when in reality they were never really Born Again (eternally spiritually alive). Look at these verses and you will find that the human spirit is dead from natural birth on because of the inherited sinful nature from Adam, until hopefully the Holy Spirit finds fertile soil in that heart and births that human spirit into eternal life:

John 3:5-7 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water (natural birth) and the Spirit (spiritual birth) he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] "That which is born of the flesh is flesh (natural birth), and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (spiritual birth).
[SUP]7 [/SUP] "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

Colossians 2:13-14 (NIV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

1 John 2:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Matthew 7:21-23 (NKJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'


THAT I never knew you is a reference, that moment the Holy Spirit comes into your heart birthing your human spirit into ETERNAL LIFE, and it is not Eternal if you can lose it.

John 3:36 (ISV)
[SUP]36 [/SUP] The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

The verb tense of "disobeys" implies a continuous lifestyle of disobeying, for GOD knows none of us are perfect. By the same token, the one who continually strives to obey, does so because that obedience is spawning out of the LOVE OF GOD that was poured into our hearts, the moment the Holy Spirit entered our hearts, enabling us to genuinely BELIEVE.

John 5:24 (ISV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] "Truly, truly I tell you, the one who hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and does not come under judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Romans 5:5 (ISV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] This hope does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

The definitive difference between a genuine Christian and one who only thinks he is, is that LOVE OF GOD HIMSELF, being in our hearts, which produces an ON GOING DESIRE TO OBEY HIM. NO, IT IS NOT OF OUR WORKS, IT IS A WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN OUR HEARTS.[/QUOTEs up to have a moment of faith God is working in us before we even know he is. I think scripture says something about knowing us in the womb, I think God is planning our lives long before we know it. Setting us up to have a faith experience before we know it.He is looking out for our Good. How could we ever find God unless he reveals himself to us?

 

[weakness]

One question at a time...to please humor my simple minded self.

I have no clue as to how long until works are required. My post was largely speculative. I am certain that would be a matter of God's judgement. I would guess it would be different for different people. A wheelchair bound homeless person in poverty would be given more grace in such a matter than Bill Gates. Different expectation for different people. Luke 12:48.

Losing one's salvation because works never occur? God knows past present and future and therefore knows if works will occur or not. If the faith was dead from the beginning because the person would never do works, then was he saved to begin with? This goes back to the other thread that you participated in. Is a perame the sson saved with a dead faith?

This all presumes that works are required and I think you don't believe that....right?

God said his words and works last forever. I think if it is the Spirit working in us much the same will be true for us. If we are building his kingdom.

 

[weakness]

I responded by saying you works or mine wouldn't impress God either, which I thought you would actually agree with. How is that a problem.
I also asked if it were your goal to impress God, which it obvioning of wisdomusly shouldn't be anymore than with the Pharisees.

The point is you came out of nowhere with stuff about boasting and impressing God, something which hadn't even been suggested in the first place. Why?

The fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom

 

[Babylonisfalling]

God said his words and works last forever. I think if it is the Spirit working in us much the same will be true for us. If we are building his kingdom.

If the Spirit is working in us there will be works.