The trick behind the modern concept of "born again"

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Nov 9, 2015
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When Jesus spoke the words, to Nicodemus, "..you must be born again", it was before Jesus made his sacrifice. The purpose of Jesus' sacrifice was for all mens' salvation, if they come to him, because he is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Once his sacrifice was made, we all were washed in the Holy Spirit.

I honestly, genuinely feel, put into context, telling someone to be "born again" discounts, no less discredits Jesus' sacrifice. This is the power of Satan in the modern church. The statement, "You must accept Jesus sacrifice", is exactly the same as "You must not deny Jesus' sacrifice", for that is the spirit of anti-christ. There is no in-between. There is no, "well, now I know this happened, but I really don't know", as that is denial.

Therefore, all people, from the moment they are "people" have received Jesus' gift, his salvation by his sacrifice. The only way to lose this is by choice, to have heard the News and categorically reject it, to say you don't want it. Then you are lost, because you choose to be lost, but you can return if you accept it!

Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

Read: not from yourselves, or, not from some conscious decision made later in life... so that no one can boast, or, so that no "sect" or "interpreter" can say he does it "better".

People who push the issue of "born again" are as bickering cousins arguing over the Father's inheritance, perhaps indeed their inheritance to them is the most important aspect ever of the Father. They are wrong. If you love God only, or even mostly, for your salvation, you are not loving God, you are more loving "you". This is how you fall victim to the many false preachers who imply "they can sell you salvation if you only mail them money". NO. Jesus did this, not they.

Thanks for reading.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#3
Being born again is the spiritual birth.... you cant be born again without the word of God.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#4
When Jesus spoke the words, to Nicodemus, "..you must be born again", it was before Jesus made his sacrifice. The purpose of Jesus' sacrifice was for all mens' salvation, if they come to him, because he is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Once his sacrifice was made, we all were washed in the Holy Spirit.
That is not what Scripture says. Jesus told them to wait for the Holy Spirit after His resurrection.

He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

***

When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit.

Pentecost is 50 days after Passover.
On the Old Testament Day of Pentecost Israel received the Law; on the New Testament Day of Pentecost the Church received the Spirit of Grace in fullness.
 
Nov 9, 2015
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That is not what Scripture says.
John 3 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. [SUP]2 [/SUP]He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”[SUP] 3 [/SUP]Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.

Yes it is. Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus. Jesus said this before his crucifixion.

edit : ah, I re-read your post's intent. Are you saying, "Jesus' sacrifice was not for our salvation, that we were not washed in the Spirit by his actions"?
 
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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#6
Yes it is. Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus. Jesus said this before his crucifixion.
It would be helpful if you responded to what I actually said in direct response to what you said. Instead you act as if I was referring to one part of your post when I made clear which part my response was referring to with bold font. Did you miss that?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#8
Are you saying, "Jesus' sacrifice was not for our salvation, that we were not washed in the Spirit by his actions"?
What part of, "Jesus told them to wait for the Holy Spirit after His resurrection" do you not understand?
 
Jun 23, 2015
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#9
Once his sacrifice was made, we all were washed in the Holy Spirit.



[h=1] Romans 10:9-10
[/h] [SUP]9 [/SUP]If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
 
Nov 9, 2015
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#10
What part of, "Jesus told them to wait for the Holy Spirit after His resurrection" do you not understand?
The Holy Spirit is always with us, intermittently giving signs and indicators. Saying "The Holy Spirit will indicate something later", does not exclude the fact the Holy Spirit was within Jesus when He made His sacrifice, it does not somehow mean we were not washed in the Spirit at the time of his sacrifice.

Matthew 3:11 I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#11
The Holy Spirit is always with us, intermittently giving signs and indicators. Saying "The Holy Spirit will indicate something later", does not exclude the fact the Holy Spirit was within Jesus when He made His sacrifice, it does not somehow mean we were not washed in the Spirit at the time of his sacrifice.

Matthew 3:11 I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
You have a way of twisting and adding and subtracting to what I say and then misunderstanding the whole of it that is quite astounding, to be honest. You seem to do the same to Scripture, and preach a different gospel as a result.
 
Jun 23, 2015
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#12
You have a way of twisting and adding and subtracting to what I say and then misunderstanding the whole of it that is quite astounding, to be honest. You seem to do the same to Scripture, and preach a different gospel as a result.
You seem to do the same to Scripture, and preach a different gospel as a result.

It sure appears to be that way doesnt it?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#13
Therefore, all people, from the moment they are "people" have received Jesus' gift, his salvation by his sacrifice. The only way to lose this is by choice, to have heard the News and categorically reject it, to say you don't want it. Then you are lost, because you choose to be lost, but you can return if you accept it!
For example, this is pretty much the opposite of what Scripture teaches.
 
Nov 9, 2015
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#14
You have a way of twisting and adding and subtracting to what I say and then misunderstanding the whole of it that is quite astounding, to be honest. You seem to do the same to Scripture, and preach a different gospel as a result.
Honestly, I'm not trying to twist, I certainly am not "adding". To me it's very simple, and it's my intent to "untwist what has been twisted". Maybe that "untwisting" appears as a "twisting" from a given vantage point.

I'm not against anyone, I'm for everyone. I'd like to very much include all, so we all accept Jesus and His sacrifice. I simply am pointing to this exclusive nature which has somehow become integral and "twisted" into God's very well-meaning message.

edit: I'm going to let this rest for awhile and not be hyper-reactive to every post. Thanks for replying quickly and allowing me to contest what I knew would hotly follow as the loudest refutes.
 
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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#15
Honestly, I'm not trying to twist, I certainly am not "adding". To me it's very simple, and it's my intent to "untwist what has been twisted". Maybe that "untwisting" appears as a "twisting" from a given vantage point.

I'm not against anyone, I'm for everyone. I'd like to very much include all, so we all accept Jesus and His sacrifice. I simply am pointing to this exclusive nature which has somehow become integral and "twisted" into God's very well-meaning message.

edit: I'm going to let this rest for awhile and not be hyper-reactive to every post. Thanks for replying quickly and allowing me to contest what I knew would hotly follow as the loudest refutes.
See what I have marked in bold above? Here is where you seem to contradict yourself. Earlier you were saying we have all already received His salvation. My previous post pointed this out.
 
Nov 9, 2015
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#16
The statement, "You must accept Jesus sacrifice", is exactly the same as "You must not deny Jesus' sacrifice", for that is the spirit of anti-christ. There is no in-between. There is no, "well, now I know this happened, but I really don't know", as that is denial.
I didn't stutter.
 
Nov 9, 2015
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#18
There's "proven wrong", and there's "proven wrong in your mind". Let's not hash this to an epistemological debate. I enjoy and entertain disputes. We should all make clear in our minds what faith is to us so we can carry forward. We should not allow that to pretend it manifests some exclusivity in God's message and God's grace.

edit: also I know I said I am going to let this rest, and I went against it, but I really like your words and your questions. This time I will let it rest for now.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#19
There's "proven wrong", and there's "proven wrong in your mind". Let's not hash this to an epistemological debate. I enjoy and entertain disputes. We should all make clear in our minds what faith is to us so we can carry forward. We should not allow that to pretend it manifests some exclusivity in God's message and God's grace.
I am simply trying to help you use the correct words. If someone has refuted you, then you are by the very definition of that word proven wrong. It is quite different from bringing something under dispute to ascertain veracity one way or another.

Your opening post makes assertions that are not borne out in Scripture.
I have pointed two of these errors out to you already. Scripture teaches that
we are born dead to God and need to believe on Jesus to be restored or
reconciled in our relationship with Him. This is an act of repentance that is
essentially accompanied by a spiritual rebirth, what Jesus called being born again.
 
Feb 21, 2012
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#20
The Holy Spirit is always with us, intermittently giving signs and indicators. Saying "The Holy Spirit will indicate something later", does not exclude the fact the Holy Spirit was within Jesus when He made His sacrifice, it does not somehow mean we were not washed in the Spirit at the time of his sacrifice.

Matthew 3:11 I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
John 7:37-39 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them." By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

John 16:7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away the Advocate (the Comforter, i.e. the holy Spirit) will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

John 15:26 When the Advocate (the Comforter, i.e. the holy Spirit) comes whom I will send to you from the Father -- the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father . . . .

Acts 1:4,5 Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the holy Spirit. (John 15)