Question from an atheist

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ClementR

Junior Member
Nov 26, 2015
3
0
1
#1
Hi,


My name is Clement, I'm 19. I'm a french engineering student (In IT),. Obviously, I'm sorry if i'm making english mistakes!
I think that i need to begin this message saying that I'm an atheist.


However, my family is catholic, like so many humans. I'm really curious et asking myself a lot of questions on religion, especially about catholicism. For a lot of them, I don't have any answer.


I really tried to learn the religion, but it's really hard and complicated, so please excuse me if I do some mistakes.


One of the great answering questions I wanna share with you is this:


Prophets had come on earth to spread god's speech, to teach people what is good and what is sin, in the goal to show to humans the way of salvation, and give them a choice: Live under the rules of God, and earn the eternal salvation, or live as a misbeliever, and be faced to God's punishment. (I know it's much more complicated than this, I just try to make the best sum up i can).
God is good, and that's why he gave to people this choice.


There is the question. Phrophets spread God's speech, especially in Europa and a lot of Ocidental countries, but there are the limit of "occidental". Some peoples had never heard the God's speech, i especially think to earliest inhabitants of Asia, Inuit, amazons.


To God's eyes, these people are people, just as me, Clément. God is good and so don't make any difference between any human, whatever the region he comes from.


Why me, Clément, did I have the luck to hear God's speech, and not everyone on earth? Why did i have the luck to make the choice I mentionned earlier, and other didn't have it?


I want to really thank you to take time to read my question, and maybe to answer it. I would be hugely interested by knowing if I can ask questions as this to a priest or somewho could answer me, and if yes, what kind of occasions are existing to discuss theologie?


Sincerely,
Clément
 
Dec 30, 2014
114
31
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#2

In the day of the Apostles, all heard the message of God's love.

Today, God wants all to hear the gospel message as well. God has not failed but we who know the truth have failed. I am sure God wants to send missionaries all around the world with His word.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,249
25,719
113
#3
Hello Clément, welcome to CC! You summed up very well, except that nobody earns salvation. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God...

welcome.gif
 

Calmador

Senior Member
Jun 23, 2011
945
40
28
#4
Hey, thanks for asking questions Clement

There's two things you should know.

Firstly, salvation in Christianity isn't by following the rules. In Christianity, the rules is called "Law" which is the ten commandments. All the Law can do is make you realize that you can't follow the Law. Let's just take a few commandments...

Thou shalt not lie... Clement, ask yourself, have you ever lied?

Thou shalt honor your father and mother... Clement, have you ever dishonored your parents?

Thou shalt not steal... have you ever stolen?

Have you put God as your only God and worshiped him only?..

If you answered yes then you've broken the Law. This means your guilty and need forgiveness. Now yes people can sometimes follow the rules. But, in Christianity, its not ignored the fact that we have broken them in the past. Our human perspective and human morality doesn't mind if you've broken the Law a few times... as long as you've follow it more then your okay. From God's perspective, if you've broken the Law once, that is too much wrong and you are guilty and deserve punishment. Nobody is perfect... everyone has done evil so we all deserve punishment.

That's why God came as Jesus to fulfill... to never sin... never do or think evil... never brake the Law. Jesus did this for humanity so that the Law would be fulfilled.

Now as for humanity's punishment for sin. The punishment is pretty bad.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The punishment of sin is death. Now, here's the reason why Jesus died on the cross. Our punishment is death... and Jesus died to take our punishment. He died so you don't have to die.

So.. so far.. Jesus did two major things for humanity.

1. He lived a perfect lived a perfect life and didn't break the Law to fullfill it.
2. He took our punishment.

And basically we're gonna get all that from him for free. Jesus's perfect life is our perfect life... and we won't have to die for our sins.

How do we accept this gift? You just acknowledge it. You trust this happened for you. Or how many Christians say it... you believe in it and have faith of this for you.

In a way it's like many conscious agreements you can have with people. Let's say... if I call my relatives in a distant country... and I ask them... Hey, do you guys want me to send some money? The relatives respond yes. They consciously agree and say yes out loud. Then I send them money as a gift.

Just like that... you conciously agree and say yes to Jesus Christ and salvation is yours. You get Jesus's perfect life where he didn't brake the Law and accept him taking your punishment for you.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Now the second thing I need explain is about people not hearing God's word.

The answer is that actually, we all do know.

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

We have an understanding that God exist from the things that have been made. The world, the universe... animals, plants, and yourself are an indication that God exists.

Romans 2:15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

Also, we have some kind of written requirements on our hearts of the law... I believe God has written something on our hearts as a kind of moral compass that shows us... lying is wrong... murder is wrong... etc.

So, even without the Law of God, without God's word being read. I believe people... 1) have a recognition of God's existence and 2) they also have something written on their hearts that shows them wrong... not to mention Adam and Eve have eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil... So, unless there's some kind of metaphorical meaning of "knowledge of good and evil" mankind probably understands right and wrong now absolutely or very well because we ate from that tree. (note: God informed some amount of right and wrong before eating that tree... He told them that it is wrong to eat from the tree... so Adam and Eve did know a little bit of right and wrong)

So... yeah, hope that was helpful. Thanks for reading, let me know if that answers your question.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,704
3,649
113
#5
All those who have heard the Gospel will be accountable to the Gospel.
Have you heard the Gospel or just religion?
I agree, religion is difficult, but the salvation rescue by Jesus Christ is not difficult, even a child can grasp it.

We embrace a living Savior who has conquered death, hell and satan through His own death and resurrection.

1Co 15:1-4 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, (2) and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. (3) For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, (4) that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,
 
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Siberian_Khatru

Guest
#6
Welcome to the site, Clement! I'm glad that you're pursuing these questions. Yes, Christianity/Religion can be difficult, but you can break just about anything down to its fundamentals, and that's a good starting point.

Best of luck to you in your search. :)
 
O

oldthennew

Guest
#7
DEAU.4:29. -
But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find,
if thou seek Him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

PRO.8:17.
I love them that love Me; and those that seek Me early shall find Me.

LUKE15:8.
Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle,
and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?
 

Siela01

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2015
619
14
0
#8
Welcome to CC ..be religion maybe difficult but Jesus too dead, save us, suffering to us and that's too difficult... bcs Jesus is only human..God's give me, give u and give us choice bcs Him want to see that's loyalty...:)God bless
 
W

wwjd_kilden

Guest
#9
Welcome

First or, although the bible says that all sin leads to death, know that God has different expectations to those who knows Him vs those who don't:

47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows"
(Luke 12: 42-48)

Also, Jesus told his followers to spread the news to everyone, because we need faith to be saved, and we need to hear God's word to know.

Romans 10:

9If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[SUP]e[/SUP] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”[SUP]f[/SUP] 14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”[SUP]g[/SUP]
( 16But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”[SUP]h[/SUP] 17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. 18But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: )


“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,

their words to the ends of the world.”[SUP]i[/SUP]
 
S

sparkman

Guest
#10
Hi Clement,

This is a very good question.

Regarding the essential gospel message and understanding it, I would read this book:

https://kbcworshipblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/whatisthegospel-gilbert.pdf

This book gives a full-bodied explanation of the Gospel message from an evangelical Christian perspective. I find that many Christians are unable to articulate the gospel message coherently and this book does this job very well. Usually most Christians start in the middle of the gospel message without giving the listener essential background information.

Regarding your specific question, Romans 1 tells us that there is no one who doesn't know that God exists, but that the unconverted mind suppresses a knowledge of God. Romans 2 tells us that God has embedded a knowledge of his law in our conscience, so we know that we violate his righteous standards or his moral law. This means that we can all be rightly judged by God in the day of judgment.

As Romans 2 indicates, God can rightly judge mankind because he has given them this light. In addition, the person is held accountable for what he knows, and not what he doesn't know. Romans 3 says that there is no one who seeks to do good, though, and that we are all universally in need of the forgiveness and reconciliation that is available through Christ's atoning sacrifice on the cross.

Scripture also teaches that there is no such thing as an honest atheist. It is true that mankind suppresses the knowledge of God, but the knowledge is there. It is impossible to view the intricate detail of the creation and to fail to recognize that there is a Creator behind the creation.

I would highly suggest reading Romans 1 thru 6 with a particular emphasis on Romans 1, in a good translation such as the ESV or NASB or whatever modern French version that you can find.

If you would like to talk to me, I would be glad to spend time discussing this issue with you. I am not a pastor but I have studied theology, apologetics and salvation in depth. My perspective is that of an evangelical Christian. You can contact me through christianchat.com using the email.

There is also a chat feature available on this website that can be used to discuss such questions, although you should always take such answers with a grain of salt. There are many individuals here of different backgrounds, some of which try to teach strange things.


It is very important to understand that you will be answering to God on the day of judgment, whether you acknowledge his existence or not. I would be careful and take serious heed to this reality.

Regards,

Robert

Hi,


My name is Clement, I'm 19. I'm a french engineering student (In IT),. Obviously, I'm sorry if i'm making english mistakes!
I think that i need to begin this message saying that I'm an atheist.


However, my family is catholic, like so many humans. I'm really curious et asking myself a lot of questions on religion, especially about catholicism. For a lot of them, I don't have any answer.


I really tried to learn the religion, but it's really hard and complicated, so please excuse me if I do some mistakes.


One of the great answering questions I wanna share with you is this:


Prophets had come on earth to spread god's speech, to teach people what is good and what is sin, in the goal to show to humans the way of salvation, and give them a choice: Live under the rules of God, and earn the eternal salvation, or live as a misbeliever, and be faced to God's punishment. (I know it's much more complicated than this, I just try to make the best sum up i can).
God is good, and that's why he gave to people this choice.


There is the question. Phrophets spread God's speech, especially in Europa and a lot of Ocidental countries, but there are the limit of "occidental". Some peoples had never heard the God's speech, i especially think to earliest inhabitants of Asia, Inuit, amazons.


To God's eyes, these people are people, just as me, Clément. God is good and so don't make any difference between any human, whatever the region he comes from.


Why me, Clément, did I have the luck to hear God's speech, and not everyone on earth? Why did i have the luck to make the choice I mentionned earlier, and other didn't have it?


I want to really thank you to take time to read my question, and maybe to answer it. I would be hugely interested by knowing if I can ask questions as this to a priest or somewho could answer me, and if yes, what kind of occasions are existing to discuss theologie?


Sincerely,
Clément
 
Last edited:
Nov 17, 2015
13
0
0
#11
Hi Clement, eventually everyone who has ever lived will hear about Jesus and the good news gospel.

Let me link a paper to you which I believe is a very good read if your interested.

L. Ray Smith - James Kennedy Letter
"WHAT ABOUT THOSE WHO HAVE NEVER HEARD?"

A Sermon By: JAMES KENNEDY,
A.B., M.Div., M.Th., D.D., D. Sac.Let., PhD.,
Litt.D., D.Sac.Theol., D. Humane Let.
A Critique By: L. Ray Smith

Here is a short excerpt from that paper.


Oct. 1, 2000
Dear Dr. Kennedy:
From you sermon brochure "What about those who have never heard?" you evidently mean, "... those who have never heard of Christ?" (Page 1). Page 2: "Do you mean to tell me you believe that God is going to condemn somebody for simply not believing in a Jesus Christ he never heard of. Why, that is monstrous." You then say: "This is the ignorance defense."
Before critiquing your sermon on this subject, let me give you the Scriptural answer to What about those who have never heard? Answer: They will HEAR. Sermon over. Proof:
"Wherefore, also, God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with the name that is above every name, that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean, and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father" (Phil. 2:9-11).
Let me add, that this "acclaiming" is the same "acclaiming" our Lord used when He said:
"I am acclaiming Thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth ..." (Matt. 11:25).
The connotation is always a willful acclimation. For this to happen, ALL must hear.
This verse plainly says that every creature in heaven, on the earth, and under the earth, will one day, "acclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord." But you say this is a "difficulty question." You say that many people feel it is an "extremely difficult question." Dr. Kennedy, it’s theologians like you, who make this relatively simple question seem extremely difficult.
 
S

sparkman

Guest
#12
Porter,

It seems like you are supporting the teachings of L. Ray Smith. According to a quick search, he is anti-Trinitarian and a universalist. The Bible is clear in teaching that some will suffer eternal punishment so universalism is false.

God calls upon all men everywhere to repent now (Acts 17:30). The idea of a post-mortem salvation opportunity is by necessity false.

I am wondering if you are aware that he teaches poor doctrine in these areas.

Apparently he was influenced by Herbert Armstrong, founder of Worldwide Church of God, which is the cult that I came from. They teach blasphemies including claiming that they will become God beings in the resurrection and claiming that other Christians are unsaved and are following a counterfeit Christianity that teaches a false gospel, and that their ministers are "ministers of Satan". They also denied the Trinity doctrine, because they believe that their members would join the Godhead in the resurrection as fully God. They claimed to be a restoration of "true Christianity" which had been lost since the apostolic era.

ClementR, this is an example of how there are people on this website who are influenced by false teachings and try to teach others these things.

Regards,

Robert

Hi Clement, eventually everyone who has ever lived will hear about Jesus and the good news gospel.

Let me link a paper to you which I believe is a very good read if your interested.

L. Ray Smith - James Kennedy Letter
"WHAT ABOUT THOSE WHO HAVE NEVER HEARD?"

A Sermon By: JAMES KENNEDY,
A.B., M.Div., M.Th., D.D., D. Sac.Let., PhD.,
Litt.D., D.Sac.Theol., D. Humane Let.
A Critique By: L. Ray Smith

Here is a short excerpt from that paper.


Oct. 1, 2000
Dear Dr. Kennedy:
From you sermon brochure "What about those who have never heard?" you evidently mean, "... those who have never heard of Christ?" (Page 1). Page 2: "Do you mean to tell me you believe that God is going to condemn somebody for simply not believing in a Jesus Christ he never heard of. Why, that is monstrous." You then say: "This is the ignorance defense."
Before critiquing your sermon on this subject, let me give you the Scriptural answer to What about those who have never heard? Answer: They will HEAR. Sermon over. Proof:
"Wherefore, also, God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with the name that is above every name, that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean, and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father" (Phil. 2:9-11).
Let me add, that this "acclaiming" is the same "acclaiming" our Lord used when He said:
"I am acclaiming Thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth ..." (Matt. 11:25).
The connotation is always a willful acclimation. For this to happen, ALL must hear.
This verse plainly says that every creature in heaven, on the earth, and under the earth, will one day, "acclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord." But you say this is a "difficulty question." You say that many people feel it is an "extremely difficult question." Dr. Kennedy, it’s theologians like you, who make this relatively simple question seem extremely difficult.
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
689
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#13
GOD has written his law in every man's heart, and each man's conscience bears witness to it. Some are given more knowledge than others about the particulars of GOD's dealings with mankind, but all men are responsible to obey GOD's law. Every man will be held responsible for the knowledge he has received.

For whenever the Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things of the law, these, [although they] do not have the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written on their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts [one] after another accusing or even defending them on the day when God judges the secret things of people, according to my gospel, through Christ Jesus. Romans 2:14-16

But the one who did not know and did [things] deserving blows will be given a light beating. And from everyone to whom much has been given, much will be demanded, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will ask him [for] even more. Luke 12:48
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#14
Hi,

My name is Clement, I'm 19. I'm a french engineering student (In IT),. Obviously, I'm sorry if i'm making english mistakes!
I think that i need to begin this message saying that I'm an atheist.

However, my family is catholic, like so many humans. I'm really curious et asking myself a lot of questions on religion, especially about catholicism. For a lot of them, I don't have any answer.


I really tried to learn the religion, but it's really hard and complicated, so please excuse me if I do some mistakes.


One of the great answering questions I wanna share with you is this:


Prophets had come on earth to spread god's speech, to teach people what is good and what is sin, in the goal to show to humans the way of salvation, and give them a choice: Live under the rules of God, and earn the eternal salvation, or live as a misbeliever, and be faced to God's punishment. (I know it's much more complicated than this, I just try to make the best sum up i can).
God is good, and that's why he gave to people this choice.


There is the question. Phrophets spread God's speech, especially in Europa and a lot of Ocidental countries, but there are the limit of "occidental". Some peoples had never heard the God's speech, i especially think to earliest inhabitants of Asia, Inuit, amazons.


To God's eyes, these people are people, just as me, Clément. God is good and so don't make any difference between any human, whatever the region he comes from.


Why me, Clément, did I have the luck to hear God's speech, and not everyone on earth? Why did i have the luck to make the choice I mentionned earlier, and other didn't have it?


I want to really thank you to take time to read my question, and maybe to answer it. I would be hugely interested by knowing if I can ask questions as this to a priest or somewho could answer me, and if yes, what kind of occasions are existing to discuss theologie?


Sincerely,
Clément

Scripture tells us: 'the invisible things from the creation of the world are clearly seen being witnessed by the things which are created, even His everlasting power and Godhead, so that they may be without excuse' (Rom 1.20).

Thus any man can see the glory of creation and learn what God is like. By use of his conscience he can then seek to please God (Rom 2.15). But the problem is that few, if any, do. Thus all are guilty before God.

That is why Jesus Christ came into the world to die for our sins. It is only through what He did for us on the cross that we can be saved. He bore our punishment so that if we put our trust in Him to be our Saviour we may go free. As a consequence He will come into our lives and give us new spiritual life. It is FREE and we do not have to do anything to earn it.

'By the unmerited love and compassion of God we are saved, through faith, and it is not of ourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast (Eph 2.8-9).

The consequence of it is that we will live to please Him
 
S

sparkman

Guest
#15
ClementR,

Regarding this question, I'd also like to remark that some cults propose answers to this question in order to ensnare people into their groups. Some of the Armstrongite groups, such as United Church of God, Living Church of God, Restored Church of God, and Philadelphia Church of God, propose that there is a post-mortem salvation opportunity for such individuals.

So, you want to be careful about getting ensnared in such groups. I was involved in one of them when I was a young believer. Part of the reason is because they proposed answers for such questions that sounded reasonable on a surface level. Groups like this can weave a credible story that can fool less experienced people, but when their positions are examined more critically, you can see that they take verses out of context and ignore other very clear verses to build their case for their false doctrines.

It's fine to ask the question as it's a reasonable one, but just watch out for cults in this regard. Individuals who belong to these groups ARE on this website.

As I described earlier, Romans 1 and 2 answers this question.

As for you, though, you should be concerned about your own salvation, and not those who haven't heard the gospel message. That's my strong advice.

On some questions, I fall back on the knowledge that God is loving and merciful and will deal with people in a manner that reflects that. He is also just, meaning that he always punishes sin, which we all have, and we fall under his wrath and condemnation due to that according to Romans 1. The real question is whether you will repent of your sin and accept the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ on your behalf.

Robert
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
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#16
Clement I am a former atheist and I asked the same questions myself. I had a background in electronics so I had a descent understanding of physics and sub-atomic particles. I always knew that this existence we call life is not real, it's an electrical simulation. Think about it.... if you were to take an atom and scale it up to where the nucleus was one foot in diameter, the electrons in the first band would be approximately 10 miles away. So an object we call solid is actually nothing but empty space and positive and negative charges. I say all of this for a reason lol.

Since this existence is a simulation then the rules of the simulation are whatever the Author wants it to be. The rules are laid out in the bible. The bible says that God, the author, created some beings for destruction and some that are his chosen people. The bible also says that we encounter angels unknowingly. This means that not all people we encounter are "real" people. That's as far as I can go with the bible, the rest is speculation on my part.

God is love and he is just. I believe that God created a number of "real" people to be his people and he created a vast number of people to be "players" in the simulation. The players are created to interact with us to do the purpose God created us for.

I believe all "real" people will hear the gospel no matter where they live and will be saved according to the election of God. The rest are "players"... vessels made for destruction when the simulation is over. :)
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
113
#17
Proverbs 9:10 [SUP] [/SUP]The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.


There is no religion that can give you wisdom. If you are seeking wisdom and knowledge of the Holy that is between you and God alone.

Start reading the bible and asking God all the things that are difficult to understand. Men won't be able to answer your questions. And if they can, you won't understand them the way God would have you understand them.

If your atheism is getting in the way of reading the bible you should read CS Lewis 'Mere Christianity' and then try again.
 
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sparkman

Guest
#18
Clement I am a former atheist and I asked the same questions myself. I had a background in electronics so I had a descent understanding of physics and sub-atomic particles. I always knew that this existence we call life is not real, it's an electrical simulation. Think about it.... if you were to take an atom and scale it up to where the nucleus was one foot in diameter, the electrons in the first band would be approximately 10 miles away. So an object we call solid is actually nothing but empty space and positive and negative charges. I say all of this for a reason lol.

Since this existence is a simulation then the rules of the simulation are whatever the Author wants it to be. The rules are laid out in the bible. The bible says that God, the author, created some beings for destruction and some that are his chosen people. The bible also says that we encounter angels unknowingly. This means that not all people we encounter are "real" people. That's as far as I can go with the bible, the rest is speculation on my part.

God is love and he is just. I believe that God created a number of "real" people to be his people and he created a vast number of people to be "players" in the simulation. The players are created to interact with us to do the purpose God created us for.

I believe all "real" people will hear the gospel no matter where they live and will be saved according to the election of God. The rest are "players"... vessels made for destruction when the simulation is over. :)
This is the craziest thing I've seen on this site so far :D

The Bible teaches NOTHING of this sort. Our choices are real and have real consequences.
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
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#19
This is the craziest thing I've seen on this site so far :D

The Bible teaches NOTHING of this sort. Our choices are real and have real consequences.
I never said our choices are not real.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,249
25,719
113
#20
I never said our choices are not real.
I understood what you were saying... and you did say it was all God's design and all for His purpose. Many people say things like life is a game, but that does not in any way suggest there are no consequences for our actions. The actions are real, just as the consequences are real, and games do teach such principles. There are so many different ways of looking at it, of harmonizing with other modes of thinking. Abstracting can help isolate immutable specifics.