Conditions or descriptions? It's in the lens...

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Nov 22, 2015
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#1
I used to read certain scriptures and they used to bother me until the Hoy Spirit changed my "lens". How I view the scripture. The scripture can say 2 different things depending on the "lens" we use to view it.

For example Jesus said " If you love Me you will keep my commandments" John 14:15

I could look at this through the lens of it's up to my performance = this makes this verse a condition.

Or, I could look at it through the lens of the finished work of Christ and His grace = this would make this verse a description.

a condition says - YOU have to "do" ( working to get )

A description say - this is what your new life looks like as you are "being" who you really are because of Christ's life in you ( believing to receive )

Let's look at it from another verse that used to condemn me before I understood the finished work of Christ - in that it is all about His grace and life flowing out of me. I like to look at the "application" of it in real life terms.

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[TD="width: 100%, align: left"]And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. Romans 8:18 [/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 3, align: left"] In this verse, “all things” is literally all things—the good, the bad and the ugly! Now, it does not mean that all things are from God. Some things, such as accidents, sicknesses, broken relationships and divorces are not from Him. They are from the devil or just part of the fallen world that we live in. But what this verse does tell us is that “all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose”. That is our inheritance as God’s beloved children.


Do the people of the world have this inheritance? No. When bad things happen to them, they are what they are—bad things. But when bad things happen to the children of God, it does not end there. God can make those bad things work together for good. In other words, the devil may throw lemons at you, but God can take those lemons and make refreshing lemonade for you!


For example, if you have lost your job, believe that God, who makes all things work together for good, has a better job for you. Indeed, we have received testimonies from church members who have ended up with better jobs and higher salaries after the Lord provided another job for them.

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It is important you remember that God is not behind anything bad or ugly. But when those things happen, know that He can make all things work together for good. And don’t let anyone tell you that all things will work together for good only if you love God and are called according to His purpose. These two things are not conditions but descriptions of believers. Believers are those who love God because they know that God first loved them. (1 John 4:19) And they are called according to His purpose for they have been born again and belong to Him.


Because we have been born again, all things in your life will work together for good. This is your inheritance as a beloved child of God!

See how the different lens changes how we view a scripture? I always ask myself..is this a condition of something I must "do" or is it a description of the life that is in me ( being who I am in Christ ) because of the grace of Jesus in me?
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D

dalconn

Guest
#2
While I agree with your analogy of looking through a lens I think its important to let the Holy Spirit select the correct lens. For example, take this passage below in light of the fact that you just got fired from your job;

"Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. Rejoice and be exceeding glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you" (Matthew 5:10-12).

So, if you got fired because your boss didn't like your devout and chased lifestyle and the fact that you didn't participate in ungodly conversations around the workplace so he fabricated a reason to terminate you this scripture would apply. However, if you was fired because you missed work and performed poorly the above scripture wouldn't apply regardless of the lens used.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#3
I agree! If we got fired for being sloppy in our word it has nothing to do with suffering for righteousness. Excellent analogy there!

We can also be persecuted for righteousness because we are relying on Christ's righteousness to change us ( called the fruits of righteousness ) or by our own self-effort to change. Huge difference here. People that depend on their own strength in the flesh ( their will-power) will demand that everyone else do what they do.

Ever notice in the scripture where Jesus said not everyone that says "Lord. Lord will enter the kingdom but those that do the will of my Father"...this group of people had "good works"..in fact the same "good works" as the true disciples.

Good works within themselves are not a barometer of origin.

People that rely completely on the grace of God to change them through the finished work of Christ will be persecuted by those that ascribe to the self-effort type of Christianity. We can try to fulfill the promises of God in our own flesh ( like..stop sinning - which it is good to stop it because it will destroy you ) like Abraham did when he created Ishmael.

Galatians 4:28-29 (NASB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.



Paul talks about it here


While I agree with your analogy of looking through a lens I think its important to let the Holy Spirit select the correct lens. For example, take this passage below in light of the fact that you just got fired from your job;

"Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. Rejoice and be exceeding glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you" (Matthew 5:10-12).

So, if you got fired because your boss didn't like your devout and chased lifestyle and the fact that you didn't participate in ungodly conversations around the workplace so he fabricated a reason to terminate you this scripture would apply. However, if you was fired because you missed work and performed poorly the above scripture wouldn't apply regardless of the lens used.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#4
We can also be persecuted for righteousness because we are relying on Christ's righteousness to change us ( called the fruits of righteousness ) or by our own self-effort to change. Huge difference here. People that depend on their own strength in the flesh ( their will-power) will demand that everyone else do what they do.
Hypothetical question: How is this not acting in one's own will and strength?

A Christian woman becomes friends with a non-Christian man. They grow close and begin to express affection. Eventually they sleep together. The woman is convicted of her sin. She does it again. She realizes she cannot continue in this course and follow GOD. She also realizes that she doesn't have the self-control to be around the man and not sleep with him. And she realizes that she doesn't want to marry him. So out of an act of her will she stops seeing him and ceases to pollute her body. So it wasn't GOD's will that separated her from defilement, but her own will that did so. She merely chose to be faithful to do GOD's will and and through an act of her will ceased from sinning.

For this is the will of God, your sanctification: [that] you abstain from sexual immorality; 1 Thessalonians 4:3

Therefore “come out from their midst and be separate,” says the Lord, “and do not touch what is unclean, and I will welcome you, and I will be a father to you, and you will be sons and daughters to me,” says the all-powerful Lord. 2 Corinthians 6:17-18
 
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Nov 22, 2015
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#5
That is a very good question.

If we could stop sinning from a sheer act of our will there would be no need for Christ to come because all we would have to do is keep all the commandments that Moses put down for us by our own will-power.

In the natural the fruit of our own self-will and the fruit of our righteousness in Christ and His life in us effecting the change look alike outwardly. ( the same as Abrahams self-effort in his flesh produced a son outwardly ) When Abraham gave up and just believed that God would fulfill His promise - then God gave him and Sarah the ability to have a son. So, they just went about living naturally...had sex and God's promise came into being...a natural outflow of them just living....the son of promise came then. God's fruit in them being produced.

All Christians agree what the "fruit" of the life of God looks like. But does it come by us producing the fruit or by relying on the root..which for us Christians is Christ's life in us. ( the whole He is the vine.....His life is the sap that flows out of us because we are the branches thing )

Sometimes we see what the fruit should look like and we say to people.."produce" this fruit..or else.

Self-control is a fruit of the Spirit which is not something we produce in our own flesh or will-power just by choosing to stop something. It can last for a bit but eventually we all give in because our flesh is weak. I think choosing by an act of our will is involved in both circumstances. Choosing to change by our will power and living from the life of Christ both involve the will.

I will give you my story below.

I had the very experience happened to me years ago and I was just learning about the grace of Christ in the gospel. I only did it a few times when I stopped and left the relationship because when I said I cannot do this because it violated the life in me..she said I don't want to have anything to do with you then...so that was it. We were unequally yoked but I did not stop because of some rule or the need to "obey". It was the life of Christ that rose up in me because I was constantly declaring who I was in Christ..I am the righteousness of God in Christ...I was speaking and agreeing with God about who I really was...the "fruit" of His righteousness flowed out of me and the sin of sleeping with her just dropped off naturally. My will was involved with the life of Christ in me. There was no striving on my part..just choosing to believe who I was in Christ in the face of what my flesh wanted to do.. I was relying on the vine and He flowed His "sap" to me and it produced the fruit of righteousness. It is effortless living that Christ talked about...My yoke is easy and My burden is light. His yoke and burden is us trusting in His finished work on our behalf.

You shall decree a thing and it will be established for you and light shall shine on your ways.

Faith in Christ is our warfare.

Faith in Christ is our obedience.

Faith in Christ is our faith in action.

He has done it all! It is finished in Him!

That was a very good question as it helped me to "see" how belief in the grace of Christ and in Him alone brings real change in our lives. I apologize for the long response. Sometimes it's hard to articulate what you can see when you look at truth and life.

Ultimately it is the Holy Spirit that will reveal whether it is us in our own power trying to do something or by relying on Christ in us .

Hypothetical question: How is this not acting in one's own will and strength?

A Christian woman becomes friends with a non-Christian man. They grow close and begin to express affection. Eventually they sleep together. The woman is convicted of her sin. She does it again. She realizes she cannot continue in this course and follow GOD. She also realizes that she doesn't have the self-control to be around the man and not sleep with him. And she realizes that she doesn't want to marry him. So out of an act of her will she stops seeing him and ceases to pollute her body. So it wasn't GOD's will that separated her from defilement, but her own will that did so. She merely chose to be faithful to do GOD's will and and through an act of her will ceased from sinning.
For this is the will of God, your sanctification: [that] you abstain from sexual immorality; 1 Thessalonians 4:3

Therefore “come out from their midst and be separate,” says the Lord, “and do not touch what is unclean, and I will welcome you, and I will be a father to you, and you will be sons and daughters to me,” says the all-powerful Lord. 2 Corinthians 6:17-18
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#6
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A lot of words indeed, but no substantive answer to the question. The hypothetical woman did stop sinning solely as an act of her will. She crucified her flesh, so to speak. She sanctified herself by separating herself from what was causing her to sin. It really had nothing to do with GOD apart from her commitment to abide by the conditions of his covenant, and her faith in his promise to forgive her.

That is a very good question.

If we could stop sinning from a sheer act of our will there would be no need for Christ to come because all we would have to do is keep all the commandments that Moses put down for us by our own will-power.

In the natural the fruit of our own self-will and the fruit of our righteousness in Christ and His life in us effecting the change look alike outwardly. ( the same as Abrahams self-effort in his flesh produced a son outwardly ) When Abraham gave up and just believed that God would fulfill His promise - then God gave him and Sarah the ability to have a son. So, they just went about living naturally...had sex and God's promise came into being...a natural outflow of them just living....the son of promise came then. God's fruit in them being produced.

All Christians agree what the "fruit" of the life of God looks like. But does it come by us producing the fruit or by relying on the root..which for us Christians is Christ's life in us. ( the whole He is the vine.....His life is the sap that flows out of us because we are the branches thing )

Sometimes we see what the fruit should look like and we say to people.."produce" this fruit..or else.

Self-control is a fruit of the Spirit which is not something we produce in our own flesh or will-power just by choosing to stop something. It can last for a bit but eventually we all give in because our flesh is weak. I think choosing by an act of our will is involved in both circumstances. Choosing to change by our will power and living from the life of Christ both involve the will.

I will give you my story below.

I had the very experience happened to me years ago and I was just learning about the grace of Christ in the gospel. I only did it a few times when I stopped and left the relationship because when I said I cannot do this because it violated the life in me..she said I don't want to have anything to do with you then...so that was it. We were unequally yoked but I did not stop because of some rule or the need to "obey". It was the life of Christ that rose up in me because I was constantly declaring who I was in Christ..I am the righteousness of God in Christ...I was speaking and agreeing with God about who I really was...the "fruit" of His righteousness flowed out of me and the sin of sleeping with her just dropped off naturally. My will was involved with the life of Christ in me. There was no striving on my part..just choosing to believe who I was in Christ in the face of what my flesh wanted to do.. I was relying on the vine and He flowed His "sap" to me and it produced the fruit of righteousness. It is effortless living that Christ talked about...My yoke is easy and My burden is light. His yoke and burden is us trusting in His finished work on our behalf.

You shall decree a thing and it will be established for you and light shall shine on your ways.

Faith in Christ is our warfare.

Faith in Christ is our obedience.

Faith in Christ is our faith in action.

He has done it all! It is finished in Him!

That was a very good question as it helped me to "see" how belief in the grace of Christ and in Him alone brings real change in our lives. I apologize for the long response. Sometimes it's hard to articulate what you can see when you look at truth and life.

Ultimately it is the Holy Spirit that will reveal whether it is us in our own power trying to do something or by relying on Christ in us .
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#7
Ok..I was giving you my answer. The flesh is crucified already in Christ. This is part of the "reckon yourself to be dead to sin in the flesh"..that Paul talked about in Romans.


Galatians 5:24 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Have crucified is aorist past tense.

I know you believe differently on a few things and that is your choice. I loved your question though! I was just giving you my answer to your question..you don't have to like it....be blessed!



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A lot of words indeed, but no substantive answer to the question. The hypothetical woman did stop sinning solely as an act of her will. She crucified her flesh, so to speak. She sanctified herself by separating herself from what was causing her to sin. It really had nothing to do with GOD apart from her commitment to abide by the conditions of his covenant, and her faith in his promise to forgive her.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
13,098
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#8
consider this as additional support for what you're describing:

Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
(Romans 10:1-4)

the righteousness of Christ is attributed to us by faith, and a thing submitted to, not established or attained by human effort. God is the origin of this righteousness; not man. He is the beginning and the cause, not us. all the outward goodness we exhibit now is a reaction to a thing that has inwardly already been declared - it is not to establish, but to confirm.
Christ is the completion of the purpose of the law, doing for us and in us all things that the law by itself could not accomplish!

we have cause for joy, rather than anxiety -- if the gospel you hear does not cause you to be thankful, it is not the gospel of Jesus :)



 
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Sep 4, 2012
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#9
Ok..I was giving you my answer. The flesh is crucified already in Christ. This is part of the "reckon yourself to be dead to sin in the flesh"..that Paul talked about in Romans.


Galatians 5:24 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Have crucified is aorist past tense.

I know you believe differently on a few things and that is your choice. I loved your question though! I was just giving you my answer to your question..you don't have to like it....be blessed!
I mentioned that scenario to demonstrate (prove actually) that the Hyper-Grace (HG) doctrine is flawed and not of GOD. HG teaches that a believer cannot sanctify themselves, and that sanctification is a one-time operation by GOD that a believer simply needs to acknowledge has occurred. No other effort required. Any effort at sanctification is simply a work of the flesh.

You tried to use Galatians 5:24 as a proof text for this, but that verse actually proves just the opposite. Our co-crucifixion with Christ (the cutting away of our flesh, the circumcision not made by hands) is an operation done by GOD when we are baptized into the body of Christ. But in Galatians 5:24 the subject is not GOD, but believers. The aorist in this case cannot not be simple past (because that contradicts reality and makes no sense); but instead it is an indefinite verb. So once believers have been crucified with Christ by GOD, they themselves crucify their flesh with its longings.

And they that are Christ's crucify the flesh with its affections and lusts. Galatians 5:24

And that is exactly what the woman in my example did. By an act of her will she crucified her flesh by denying its lusts, and in so doing sanctified herself. Yet you cannot address this directly because it so contradicts your HG teaching, nor can you deny that it is true. We must continually crucify the old man, before we can put on the new. The following was said by Paul to believers, not the unregenerate.

Take off, according to your former way of life, the old man, who is being destroyed according to deceitful desires, be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new man (in accordance with God), who is created in righteousness and holiness from the truth. Ephesians 4:22-24
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#10
Hebrews 10:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

We believe that we are perfected in Christ now and that we walk out who we are now in Christ. You are not working to become. We are walking out what is already there in our identity in Christ. So we are sanctified in our inner man..the new creation in Christ..and are "being" sanctified outwardly in our daily walk.

You do not "do to become." You do because He already has done it for us.

We say that it is by the Spirit of God that changes us as in 2 Corth. 3:18.


We maintain that it is Christ that sanctifies the believer. Not by our own self-effort..

Galatians 3:2-3 (KJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

This is how Christ sanctifies us...


Ephesians 5:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

The old man is dead..dead..dead.. it is in knowing this...athat allows us to walk out the new nature of Christ that is in us...

Romans 6:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Galatians 2:20-21 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

If we "cleanse" ourselves that is trying to obtain a righteousness by the law....( the law = all things you do )..if we rely on ourselves..we frustrate ( nullify, disregard, make void ) the grace of God

We put off the deeds of the old man...the former way of living....before the new creation in Christ came...we "put off" these old habits and deeds that the old man had...like our unrenewed minds...old mindsets..etc.
Ephesians 4:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old man, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,

We lay aside our former way of thinking and living that our old man had and be renewed in the spirit of our minds. How do we do that>..by "putting on the new man in Christ."


Ephesians 4:24 (NASB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] and put on the new man, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

Walk out who you really are in Christ. Walk out your new identity!

We need to see the new creation in Christ! Behold!..all things have become new. The gospel of the grace of Christ is awesome!









I mentioned that scenario to demonstrate (prove actually) that the Hyper-Grace (HG) doctrine is flawed and not of GOD. HG teaches that a believer cannot sanctify themselves, and that sanctification is a one-time operation by GOD that a believer simply needs to acknowledge has occurred. No other effort required. Any effort at sanctification is simply a work of the flesh.

You tried to use Galatians 5:24 as a proof text for this, but that verse actually proves just the opposite. Our co-crucifixion with Christ (the cutting away of our flesh, the circumcision not made by hands) is an operation done by GOD when we are baptized into the body of Christ. But in Galatians 5:24 the subject is not GOD, but believers. The aorist in this case cannot not be simple past (because that contradicts reality and makes no sense); but instead it is an indefinite verb. So once believers have been crucified with Christ by GOD, they themselves crucify their flesh with its longings.
And they that are Christ's crucify the flesh with its affections and lusts. Galatians 5:24

And that is exactly what the woman in my example did. By an act of her will she crucified her flesh by denying its lusts, and in so doing sanctified herself. Yet you cannot address this directly because it so contradicts your HG teaching, nor can you deny that it is true. We must continually crucify the old man, before we can put on the new. The following was said by Paul to believers, not the unregenerate.
Take off, according to your former way of life, the old man, who is being destroyed according to deceitful desires, be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new man (in accordance with God), who is created in righteousness and holiness from the truth. Ephesians 4:22-24
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#11
.
You refuse to address the points I've made that prove Hyper-Grace is not a doctrine of GOD, and then ramble on with more of your HG wall-of-text talking points that you copy/paste. But, FWIW, I will address some of them

Yes, our spirits have been perfected, but we ourselves are perfect? Don't think so.

Not that I have already received [the resurrection from the dead], or [have] already been made perfect, but I press on if indeed I may lay hold of [that] for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Philippians 3:12

Strike one.

In Galatians 3:3, perfected by the flesh refers directly to the preceding the works of the law in verse 2, not all human effort.

Strike two.

Ephesians 4:22 says to put off the old man before putting on Christ (verse 23). Also it says the old man is being destroyed, not that he has been destroyed.

Take off, according to your former way of life, the old man, who is being destroyed according to deceitful desires, Ephesians 4:22

Strike 3!

Hebrews 10:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

We believe that we are perfected in Christ now and that we walk out who we are now in Christ. You are not working to become. We are walking out what is already there in our identity in Christ. So we are sanctified in our inner man..the new creation in Christ..and are "being" sanctified outwardly in our daily walk.

You do not "do to become." You do because He already has done it for us.

We say that it is by the Spirit of God that changes us as in 2 Corth. 3:18.


We maintain that it is Christ that sanctifies the believer. Not by our own self-effort..

Galatians 3:2-3 (KJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

This is how Christ sanctifies us...


Ephesians 5:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

The old man is dead..dead..dead.. it is in knowing this...athat allows us to walk out the new nature of Christ that is in us...

Romans 6:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Galatians 2:20-21 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

If we "cleanse" ourselves that is trying to obtain a righteousness by the law....( the law = all things you do )..if we rely on ourselves..we frustrate ( nullify, disregard, make void ) the grace of God

We put off the deeds of the old man...the former way of living....before the new creation in Christ came...we "put off" these old habits and deeds that the old man had...like our unrenewed minds...old mindsets..etc.
Ephesians 4:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old man, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,

We lay aside our former way of thinking and living that our old man had and be renewed in the spirit of our minds. How do we do that>..by "putting on the new man in Christ."


Ephesians 4:24 (NASB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] and put on the new man, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

Walk out who you really are in Christ. Walk out your new identity!

We need to see the new creation in Christ! Behold!..all things have become new. The gospel of the grace of Christ is awesome!
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#12
Strike one = simple..Paul was working out in his life what is already in him becasue of the new creation in Christ.If Paul was not perfected in the inner man then we would have to throw out Heb 10:14

Strike 2 = all works of the law is self-effort..you do it. The law says "do, do, do" The gospel of grace of Christ says = "He's done it for you ".

strike 3 = We lay aside our former way of thinking and living that our old man had and be renewed in the spirit of our minds. How do we do that?..by "putting on the new man in Christ.".....our former way of living that we lived in under the influence of the old man ( which is now dead ) is being deceiving us.

If the old man was not crucified, then Christ was not crucified with the old man. This is obviously not even remotely true.

Romans 6:6 It's in the .."knowing this..that our old man was crucified with Christ" we have the "know this.." in order for these things to come together for us to see what happened to us when we died and rose again with Jeuss.


I know you do not recognize the new creation and that no one is righteous now because of Christ even though the scriptures say we are the righteousness of God in Christ 2 Cor 5:20. I know you said that we have 2 natures..an evil one and a good one. We have one nature..we are not a schizophrenic. Our new creation lives in a body where sin still resides in the flesh ( where the old man was connected to before he died and rose again when Christ rose. ). This sin in our bodies wars against our minds wanting to do stuff that our new creation We are not in the flesh but in the spirit.

Romans 8:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

I know that this teaching offends you and I can fully understand it as it went against my religious upbringing as well. It makes no sense to the natural mind.

...so I propose we should just leave it in the Lord's hands and bless each other and one day when we are in heaven maybe we will live beside each other and we will visit each other and be a blessing to each other!

Be blessed!!!





.
You refuse to address the points I've made that prove Hyper-Grace is not a doctrine of GOD, and then ramble on with more of your HG wall-of-text talking points that you copy/paste. But, FWIW, I will address some of them

Yes, our spirits have been perfected, but we ourselves are perfect? Don't think so.
Not that I have already received [the resurrection from the dead], or [have] already been made perfect, but I press on if indeed I may lay hold of [that] for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Philippians 3:12

Strike one.

In Galatians 3:3, perfected by the flesh refers directly to the preceding the works of the law in verse 2, not all human effort.

Strike two.

Ephesians 4:22 says to put off the old man before putting on Christ (verse 23). Also it says the old man is being destroyed, not that he has been destroyed.
Take off, according to your former way of life, the old man, who is being destroyed according to deceitful desires, Ephesians 4:22

Strike 3!
 
Sep 4, 2012
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The reason I oppose what you write is because your ideas clearly contradict scripture. For example, Paul said he was not perfect, yet you resist and deny that by insisting that he was because he had a perfected spirit. Hebrews 10:14 refers to the perfected spirit, not the whole man.

Also, works of law involves self-effort, but self-effort is not necessarily works of law. It depends on the motive. Self-effort to justify one's self is works of law, but self-effort to love someone is not, and is godly. You've simply created your own law that says any self-effort is works of law. What nonsense.

Next, you say that we lay aside the old man by putting on Christ, but that's not what scripture says. It says to put off the old man, then put on Christ. Putting off the old man is denying self, crucifying the flesh. There can be no room for Christ if the old man is given room. Sanctify the vessel first, then GOD will fill it.

Therefore “come out from their midst and be separate,” says the Lord, “and do not touch what is unclean, and I will welcome you, and I will be a father to you, and you will be sons and daughters to me,” says the all-powerful Lord. 2 Corinthians 6:17-18

Then you say that we are the righteousness of GOD in Christ. The bible nowhere says that. It says that we are becoming the righteousness of GOD in Christ. This is the same as Paul saying, 'I'm not perfect, but I'm pressing on so that I may be perfect.'

And then you accuse me of not recognizing the new creation, when I fully do.

I will not bless you as you suggest. You are teaching another grace that is not grace. Hyper-Grace is the wrong term. What you teach is Pseudo-Grace because it's not the grace of GOD.

Strike one = simple..Paul was working out in his life what is already in him becasue of the new creation in Christ.If Paul was not perfected in the inner man then we would have to throw out Heb 10:14

Strike 2 = all works of the law is self-effort..you do it. The law says "do, do, do" The gospel of grace of Christ says = "He's done it for you ".

strike 3 = We lay aside our former way of thinking and living that our old man had and be renewed in the spirit of our minds. How do we do that?..by "putting on the new man in Christ.".....our former way of living that we lived in under the influence of the old man ( which is now dead ) is being deceiving us.

If the old man was not crucified, then Christ was not crucified with the old man. This is obviously not even remotely true.

Romans 6:6 It's in the .."knowing this..that our old man was crucified with Christ" we have the "know this.." in order for these things to come together for us to see what happened to us when we died and rose again with Jeuss.


I know you do not recognize the new creation and that no one is righteous now because of Christ even though the scriptures say we are the righteousness of God in Christ 2 Cor 5:20. I know you said that we have 2 natures..an evil one and a good one. We have one nature..we are not a schizophrenic. Our new creation lives in a body where sin still resides in the flesh ( where the old man was connected to before he died and rose again when Christ rose. ). This sin in our bodies wars against our minds wanting to do stuff that our new creation We are not in the flesh but in the spirit.

Romans 8:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

I know that this teaching offends you and I can fully understand it as it went against my religious upbringing as well. It makes no sense to the natural mind.

...so I propose we should just leave it in the Lord's hands and bless each other and one day when we are in heaven maybe we will live beside each other and we will visit each other and be a blessing to each other!

Be blessed!!!
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#14
Bless you my precious beloved brother!...when you come over to visit with me in heaven..bring some goodies!!!!

.
The reason I oppose what you write is because your ideas clearly contradict scripture. For example, Paul said he was not perfect, yet you resist and deny that by insisting that he was because he had a perfected spirit. Hebrews 10:14 refers to the perfected spirit, not the whole man.

Also, works of law involves self-effort, but self-effort is not necessarily works of law. It depends on the motive. Self-effort to justify one's self is works of law, but self-effort to love someone is not, and is godly. You've simply created your own law that says any self-effort is works of law. What nonsense.

Next, you say that we lay aside the old man by putting on Christ, but that's not what scripture says. It says to put off the old man, then put on Christ. Putting off the old man is denying self, crucifying the flesh. There can be no room for Christ if the old man is given room. Sanctify the vessel first, then GOD will fill it.
Therefore “come out from their midst and be separate,” says the Lord, “and do not touch what is unclean, and I will welcome you, and I will be a father to you, and you will be sons and daughters to me,” says the all-powerful Lord. 2 Corinthians 6:17-18

Then you say that we are the righteousness of GOD in Christ. The bible nowhere says that. It says that we are becoming the righteousness of GOD in Christ. This is the same as Paul saying, 'I'm not perfect, but I'm pressing on so that I may be perfect.'

And then you accuse me of not recognizing the new creation, when I fully do.

I will not bless you as you suggest. You are teaching another grace that is not grace. Hyper-Grace is the wrong term. What you teach is Pseudo-Grace because it's not the grace of GOD.
 
Jan 7, 2015
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I used to read certain scriptures and they used to bother me until the Hoy Spirit changed my "lens". How I view the scripture. The scripture can say 2 different things depending on the "lens" we use to view it.

For example Jesus said " If you love Me you will keep my commandments" John 14:15

I could look at this through the lens of it's up to my performance = this makes this verse a condition.

Or, I could look at it through the lens of the finished work of Christ and His grace = this would make this verse a description.

a condition says - YOU have to "do" ( working to get )

A description say - this is what your new life looks like as you are "being" who you really are because of Christ's life in you ( believing to receive )

Let's look at it from another verse that used to condemn me before I understood the finished work of Christ - in that it is all about His grace and life flowing out of me. I like to look at the "application" of it in real life terms.

[TABLE="align: center"]
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[TD="align: left"]And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. Romans 8:18[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 3"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 3, align: left"] In this verse, “all things” is literally all things—the good, the bad and the ugly! Now, it does not mean that all things are from God. Some things, such as accidents, sicknesses, broken relationships and divorces are not from Him. They are from the devil or just part of the fallen world that we live in. But what this verse does tell us is that “all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose”. That is our inheritance as God’s beloved children.


Do the people of the world have this inheritance? No. When bad things happen to them, they are what they are—bad things. But when bad things happen to the children of God, it does not end there. God can make those bad things work together for good. In other words, the devil may throw lemons at you, but God can take those lemons and make refreshing lemonade for you!


For example, if you have lost your job, believe that God, who makes all things work together for good, has a better job for you. Indeed, we have received testimonies from church members who have ended up with better jobs and higher salaries after the Lord provided another job for them.

.
It is important you remember that God is not behind anything bad or ugly. But when those things happen, know that He can make all things work together for good. And don’t let anyone tell you that all things will work together for good only if you love God and are called according to His purpose. These two things are not conditions but descriptions of believers. Believers are those who love God because they know that God first loved them. (1 John 4:19) And they are called according to His purpose for they have been born again and belong to Him.


Because we have been born again, all things in your life will work together for good. This is your inheritance as a beloved child of God!

See how the different lens changes how we view a scripture? I always ask myself..is this a condition of something I must "do" or is it a description of the life that is in me ( being who I am in Christ ) because of the grace of Jesus in me?[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

More plagiarism from Grace 777 not giving credit to Prince--->>>>

Romans 8:28 - Joseph Prince - GOD MAKES ALL THINGS WORK ...

https://quizlet.com/.../romans-828-joseph-prince-god-makes-all-things-work-to...


Quizlet


In this verse, "all things" is literally all things—the good, the bad and the ugly!. Now, it does not mean that all things are from God. Some things, such as accidents, sicknesses, broken relationships and divorces are not from Him. ... are called according to His purpose for they have been born again and belong to Him.



Destined to Reign Devotional: Daily Reflections for Effortless ...

https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1577949439
Joseph Prince - 2008 - ‎Religion
this verse, “all things” is literally all things — the good, the bad and the ugly! Now, it does not mean that all things are from God. Some things, such as accidents, sicknesses, broken relationships and divorces are not from Him. They are from the devil or just part of the fallen world that we live in. But what this verse does tell us ...



4 - Grace Inspirations | Joseph Prince Ministries

Grace Inspirations | Joseph Prince Ministries Prince


Lazarus had been dead for four days when Jesus raised him to life. ... Read More ... In this verse, “all things” is literally all things—the good, the bad and the ugly! Now, it does not mean that all things are from God. Some things, such as accidents, sicknesses, broken relationships and divorces are not from Him. They are from ...
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#16
This was when I first came on to CC and didn't know about putting in the OP's source until a member told me about it and since then I have put it in...

It is a great message is encouraging us in the Lord Jesus Christ. This truth is needed in all of us. Thanks for posting it again. It is encouraging us to really know our loving Lord and that we can really trust Him for all things that come into our lives. He will be faithful to us.

Bless you!
 
Jan 7, 2015
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#17
I wonder how the Mods don't see this blatant PROMOTING and SPAMMING of the forums with the "cult" doctrine of JP? :)
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#18
I am promoting Christ and His love and grace for us. My heart is for people to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I am trying to encourage us believers to trust the Lord and that we can believe in all that He has done for us. He will remain faithful to all of us!

I bless you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.