Twice dead

[InSpiritInTruth]

What do you suppose twice dead means?

It is written in Jude 1:12 “These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;”

Notice, these once had fruit, but their fruit had withered, then being without fruit again they became twice dead. And we know by scripture good fruit= good words and actions.

Paul said in Romans 7:9 “For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.”

So when we are raised up again a new man by Christs resurrection from the dead, the order should be alive, dead, and alive again forever more as is shown with Christ.

Unless of course, some would turn back and fall away, reviving the old body of sin again. = twice dead

 

[Jon4TheCross]

What do you suppose twice dead means?

It is written in Jude 1:12 “These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;”

Notice, these once had fruit, but their fruit had withered, then being without fruit again they became twice dead. And we know by scripture good fruit= good words and actions.

Paul said in Romans 7:9 “For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.”

So when we are raised up again a new man by Christs resurrection from the dead, the order should be alive, dead, and alive again forever more as is shown with Christ.

Unless of course, some would turn back and fall away, reviving the old body of sin again. = twice dead

I believe to be twice dead, one must hate good and perfect, love, light, God, etc...after knowing God and experiencing the ability to give God. If we can give God to people even by measure, and then hate doing so to the point of approving of giving evil, then we have made our choice to fight God...knowing Him by measure and hating such a measure.
John 15:23-25Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. 25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
Hebrews 6:1-8Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 but that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

 

[Jon4TheCross]

So many do hate the idea of a commonwealth, but so many have never experienced the Commonwealth of the High Priesthood of God through Jesus Christ of Nazareth sacrificing for us.
1 Peter 4:1-3Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

4 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 2 that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. 3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

 

[DP]

What do you suppose twice dead means?

It is written in Jude 1:12 “These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;”

Notice, these once had fruit, but their fruit had withered, then being without fruit again they became twice dead. And we know by scripture good fruit= good words and actions.

Paul said in Romans 7:9 “For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.”

So when we are raised up again a new man by Christs resurrection from the dead, the order should be alive, dead, and alive again forever more as is shown with Christ.

Unless of course, some would turn back and fall away, reviving the old body of sin again. = twice dead

It means the dead who will perish in the future "lake of fire" of Rev.20, which is called the "second death".

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

It means the dead who will perish in the future "lake of fire" of Rev.20, which is called the "second death".

Jude called them twice dead while they were yet alive physically. And what is also interesting is the false prophet and body of the beast is said to be cast alive into the lake of fire prior to the second judgment and resurrection. Which is interesting because it is written that the first judgment starts with the house of God.


Revelation 19:20 “And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. = second death.

Notice was alive, then dead, then revived again, then goes into destruction

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was,(was alive) and is not;(is dead) and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit,(revived again) and go into perdition: (second death)
Revelation 17:11 “And the beast that was,(was alive) and is not,(is dead) even he is the eighth,(revived again) and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.” (second death)

Jesus did speak of those who had a name that were alive, but really they were dead.

Like in Revelation 3:1 where Jesus said “I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.”

 

[slave]

What do you suppose twice dead means?

It is written in Jude 1:12 “These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;”

Notice, these once had fruit, but their fruit had withered, then being without fruit again they became twice dead. And we know by scripture good fruit= good words and actions.

Paul said in Romans 7:9 “For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.”

So when we are raised up again a new man by Christs resurrection from the dead, the order should be alive, dead, and alive again forever more as is shown with Christ.

Unless of course, some would turn back and fall away, reviving the old body of sin again. = twice dead

I agree with your point here, but I would not equate our life "alive, dead, and alive again, pending our second death by choice of disobedience." I would equate life as "dead, alive, and then pending obedience to that aliveness found in Christ, otherwise allowing the second death as it were, to permeate control once again, by our will allowing it." My difference is that we aren't alive to start we are dead to start, unless you are meaning our natural birth of existence, yet found dead in sin, then I would agree with you. Just a point of reference is all there...

The results of Jude 1:12 starts with the precepts laid down in Jude 1:10; Here Jude is attacking evil men, they criticize everything they don't understand, and they allow themselves to be corrupted by the things they do understand.

*And the terrible thing is that the first condition is a direct result of the second.

Now, Jude 1:12 enters in....

It is blazing moral indignation at it's hottest. Here are a series of vivid pictures, everyone with significance. Which would make a great thread of it's own, but suffice it to say; these wicked men were using the Love Feasts as a cloak under which to gratify their lusts. It is a dreadful thing, if men enter the Church and use the opportunities which its fellowship gives for their own perverted ends. These men are like sunken rocks on which the fellowship of the Love Feasts was in danger of being wrecked.These wicked men revel in their own cliques and have no feeling of responsibility for anyone except themselves. These two things go together for they both stress their essential selfishness.

At the heart of all this lies a great truth. "Promise without performance is useless." And in the New Testament nothing is so unsparingly condemned as uselessness. No amount of outward show or fine words will take the place of usefulness to others. As it has been put: "If a man is not good for something, he is good for nothing."

The fate of the man who disobeys God's commands, and as it were, takes, then again, his own way has indeed entered his second death. From original sins premise, through Gods provisions of His Son unto regeneration, back by his will of choice of disobedience, then, to seek death over Gods over- coming victory. A second death is not an issue of Gods unworthiness in us, or our unworthiness in ourselves to Christ, but in the fact he allows us a free will for the sake of a love relationship to exist. Thus, we can choose to exit His will and enter a second term of death pending.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

I agree with your point here, but I would not equate our life "alive, dead, and alive again, pending our second death by choice of disobedience." I would equate life as "dead, alive, and then pending obedience to that aliveness found in Christ, otherwise allowing the second death as it were, to permeate control once again, by our will allowing it." My difference is that we aren't alive to start we are dead to start, unless you are meaning our natural birth of existence, yet found dead in sin, then I would agree with you. Just a point of reference is all there...

Yeah, I agree with what your saying, as we are born with a sin nature, then we also being dead in our trespasses. But what I was showing is how Paul explained it, that without the law sin was dead, as before the law came we thought we were first alive, but then by the law came the knowledge of sin and death. So Paul was saying I was alive once (at least in our own minds) before the law came and showed us we were really dead in our sins, and thus the need to be made truly spiritually alive in Christ.

Again notice the order in what Paul shows....

Romans 7:8-9 "But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.[SUP]9 [/SUP]For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died."

 

[slave]

Yeah, I agree with what your saying, as we are born with a sin nature, then we also being dead in our trespasses. But what I was showing is how Paul explained it, that without the law sin was dead, as before the law came we thought we were first alive, but then by the law came the knowledge of sin and death. So Paul was saying I was alive once (at least in our own minds) before the law came and showed us we were really dead in our sins, and thus the need to be made truly spiritually alive in Christ.

Again notice the order in what Paul shows....

Romans 7:8-9 "But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.[SUP]9 [/SUP]For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died."

Ok I see your point:

* Romans 7: 1-6: "Freed from Law" {yet not free from sins result in Adam}*

* Romans 14:1-17: "Law of Liberty"

* Galatians 3:10-4: "The Law brings a curse."

* Galatians 5:7-15: "Love fulfills the Law."

I do see your thinking line and I am now on board with that...Yet, God intended for us in Adam to be pure and death free, but ever since Adam, death has existed, and still exists.... The penalty of sin is death, thus we have been born into such a premise regardless of the accountability to the law in times of Old Testament, people and New Testament new covenant people. The only place for our reinstatement to completeness in the fullness of our reward in Christ will be after our death on this planet. Then Sin will not have a voice; its concerns and temptations, and all that sin imposes will be eliminated and God will reward His children in it's full measure, His glory will be seen in us as well, for His glory sake.

 

[DP]

Jude called them twice dead while they were yet alive physically. And what is also interesting is the false prophet and body of the beast is said to be cast alive into the lake of fire prior to the second judgment and resurrection. Which is interesting because it is written that the first judgment starts with the house of God.


Revelation 19:20 “And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. = second death.

Notice was alive, then dead, then revived again, then goes into destruction

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was,(was alive) and is not;(is dead) and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit,(revived again) and go into perdition: (second death)
Revelation 17:11 “And the beast that was,(was alive) and is not,(is dead) even he is the eighth,(revived again) and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.” (second death)

Jesus did speak of those who had a name that were alive, but really they were dead.

Like in Revelation 3:1 where Jesus said “I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.”

What deceptions are you pushing now?

There are ONLY TWO DEATHS written about in ALL of God's Word: the 1st death is to the flesh; the 2nd death is the casting into the "lake of fire", and in Rev.20 is CALLED "the second death".

 

[DP]

Don't be deceived brethren, the Jude 1 Scripture is speaking about Satan's angels that are already judged and sentenced along with Satan to perish in the future "lake of fire", which is a one time event when hell and death will also go into that "lake of fire" and perish. This is why the word 'perdition' in the Greek is directly associated with Satan as one of his many titles per Rev.9:11 with "Apollyon".

Likewise, the children of darkness will also go into that future "lake of fire" and perish, except we do not know who all those are yet, for they have not yet been judged by Christ to perish, no flesh born man has met the GWT Judgment yet. But we know those who follow Satan will perish if they do not repent and turn to Christ Jesus.

Thus the "twice dead" idea is about their 1st death by the flesh, and then the second death by their spirit in the lake of fire in the future; i.e., children doomed to be destroyed, like the "tares" in Jesus' parable of the tares of the field of Matt.13.

Apostle Peter covered this matter also:

2 Peter 2:12-13
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
KJV

 

[bikerchaz]

ll this is so refreshing to see and read, non of you are pushing a point to have the higher ground for yourselves but giving the glory to our saviour Jesus Christ,
there is this
Ephesians 2:1
[ By Grace Through Faith ] "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins",
which I perceive is what InSpiritInTruth was mentioning. That before we know and meet Jesus and accept his sacrifice we were yet 'dead in trespasses ans sins'

 

[DP]

ll this is so refreshing to see and read, non of you are pushing a point to have the higher ground for yourselves but giving the glory to our saviour Jesus Christ,
there is this
Ephesians 2:1
[ By Grace Through Faith ] "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins",
which I perceive is what InSpiritInTruth was mentioning. That before we know and meet Jesus and accept his sacrifice we were yet 'dead in trespasses ans sins'

Definitely, our Lord Jesus used the idea of the Pharisees being like whited sepulchers that appear clean on the outside but inside are full of dead men's bones.

That is the difference within our 'spirit'. We are either born again by The Holy Spirit through Christ Jesus, or if one rejects The Father and The Son, their spirit remains dead (empty), ready to perish at the "second death".

Yet there's more about this. In the Ezekiel 9 chapter where Peter got the idea that God's judgment on the last day will begin at His house (His servants), God told the angels there to put a mark upon all those who sigh for abominations going on (like in Ezek.8). And then go slay, both young and old, whoever didn't have that mark. The Hebrew for that word "mark" there is linked with the Hebrew letter Tau, which in ancient paelo-Hebrew writing was made like an X, i.e, a cross.

Thus with our being 'born again' through Christ Jesus, we are to receive that mark from God upon our spirit as an identifier. It represents our Lord Jesus Christ and His Blood shed upon the cross for us, which this also points to Jesus now being our Passover Lamb (1 Cor.5:7).

Apostle Paul also used the idea of our becoming "a new creature" when having believed on Christ Jesus as The Savior. The Holy Spirit actually does... do something to our spirit inside our flesh when that happens. It's something of real substance when it happens, though most just call it spiritual.

 

[Kaycie]

Twice dead means they were dead in their sins but got baptized and became alive in Christ, but even though they were alive and started to bear fruit, they died because they returned to being worldly. (Some truth for OSAS believers)

 

[mailmandan]

Twice dead means they were dead in their sins but got baptized and became alive in Christ, but even though they were alive and started to bear fruit, they died because they returned to being worldly. (Some truth for OSAS believers)

That is incorrect. You are reading this passage of scripture through the lens of your church of Christ indoctrination. The book of Jude describes men who are twice dead. In verse 4, they are described as certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. In verse 12, they are described as spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, uprooted. *THIS IS NOT DESCRIPTIVE OF BELIEVERS LOSING THEIR SALVATION.* These are lost UNBELIEVERS. A tree being dead to the core as such a tree was utterly incapable of producing good fruit then being uprooted is twice dead.

Notice in Jude 12 that these trees will be "uprooted."


Notice in Matthew 15:13, Jesus said - Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be "uprooted."

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Twice dead means they were dead in their sins but got baptized and became alive in Christ, but even though they were alive and started to bear fruit, they died because they returned to being worldly. (Some truth for OSAS believers)

And that is how I see them becoming "twice dead". Even many OSAS followers deny this falling away from the faith can even happen to them, which in turn denies all the warnings given in scriptures, which to me is denying the faith in what God said would in fact happen.

I wrote a thread on this topic of how OSAS actually denies the faith by denying the falling away from the faith that was prophesied to come, and has come. http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/113879-osas-doctrine-denies-faith.html

 

[Zmouth]

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Rev 20:6

Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: Eccl 6:6


For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not. Job 33:14


First Death: And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. Gen 6:3

Genesis 6:3 does not imply the living soul within the flesh dies, as written in Deuteronomy 34:7: "And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated."

So do they reign a thousand years upon their second death-one might draw that inference from Rev. 20:6 but one might also consider that blessed and holy is he that is resurrected from the first death, they shall live and reign in Christ the 1,000 years. And on such second death hath no power, or life. Hence John 8:51: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death."

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

That is incorrect. You are reading this passage of scripture through the lens of your church of Christ indoctrination. The book of Jude describes men who are twice dead. In verse 4, they are described as certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. In verse 12, they are described as spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, uprooted. *THIS IS NOT DESCRIPTIVE OF BELIEVERS LOSING THEIR SALVATION.* These are lost UNBELIEVERS. A tree being dead to the core as such a tree was utterly incapable of producing good fruit then being uprooted is twice dead.

Notice in Jude 12 that these trees will be "uprooted."


Notice in Matthew 15:13, Jesus said - Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be "uprooted."

Again, notice their fruit had withered, meaning they used to have fruit but died by not abiding in the faith.

It is written in Jude 1:12 “These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;”

Compare to branches that were previously "in" Christ but were cast out and withered, and the end result of being cast into the fire. (second death)

John 15:6
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Again, notice their fruit had withered, meaning they used to have fruit but died by not abiding in the faith.

I think that is not actually in the Greek text. The sense seems to be an unfruitful withered tree.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

I think that is not actually in the Greek text. The sense seems to be an unfruitful withered tree.

For something to die it had to be previously alive, just as for a branch to first wither and die it had to be removed from the life of the tree and in the process of dying. So whether or not they had actually born fruit or not, they had to be alive first in order to die twice. And we are not talking about physical death here, because these "twice dead" persons were actually living among and feasting with the true saints.

 

[notuptome]

The second death is at the Great White Throne judgment. Man is born and when sin enters he dies spiritually. Alive only in the flesh but dead in trespass and sin. God when He saves a man raises him from this death unto life eternal.

Now if a man never trusts Christ he will die the second death at the GWT judgment.

Born once die twice. Born twice die only once. Physical death verses spiritual death.

For the cause of Christ
Roger