Are women allowed to Preach?

[garee]

The Bible tells us that obedience leads to understanding. It is not that our understanding leads us to be obedient. Obedience must come first, then when God sees the obedience, it is then that He will place the understanding within you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmni02_emkQ

That would seem to be upside down as if we did the first work, obey, than seek out a understanding. The apostate Jews required a sign by a work they performed before they world believe God was leading them. They stumbled over the cross.

Its his understandig that leads us .His word as perfect law quickens our soul so that we can understand and therfore seek after him who has no form.It does not become a law when we obey it.

It is Christ who works in us with us to both will and do or obey his good pleasure.

First things first.

The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogetherPsa 19:7

 

[loyaldisciple]

It may seem backward but it's not. If one must understand one of God's commands before doing it then they are lacking in faith. With faith one will follow the command first and wait for God to provide any explanation later. If one must analyze and understand a command before following it, then they are relying on their own understanding and not trusting in God. God's faithful followers don't need any reasons for following His orders other than the fact that the orders have been given.

 

[garee]

You've described a pastor's role and job requirements. I was looking for a specific description of what "pastoral authority over men" is. I know what authority an employer does and doesn't have. The same with a LEO. But I have no idea what authority over men a pastor has.

We all have the same equal authority in the earthen bodies of death.

2Co 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Those who are qualified are not to lord it over men or woman. The qualification must be proved as a family affair.(both offices bishops and deacons) Christ has the single office as the High priest. Other wise there are no single offices.

It takes a dynamic duel.A sucessful office seems to leave out the back bone the family.The man seems to get the credit in many sects.

Note…. the requirements for the office in purple

The gift is duel in purpose.The two are one.

This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.


No wife as a helpmeet, no office. No children to try the husband and wife, no office?

 

[Ralph-]

Rebellion against authority is the defining mark of human beings. And the things that drive that rebellion are, in order

1) pride

2) fear

3) envy

We see it in the home, we see it in the workplace, we see it in politics, we see it in the church-people who have decided they aren't going to be under authority and who want to say and do what they want to say and do.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Rebellion against authority is the defining mark of human beings. And the things that drive that rebellion are, in order

1) pride

2) fear

3) envy

We see it in the home, we see it in the workplace, we see it in politics, we see it in the church-people who have decided they aren't going to be under authority and who want to say and do what they want to say and do.

So does this mean "pastoral authority over men" is the power to control what church people say and do?

 

[Ralph-]

So does this mean "pastoral authority over men" is the power to control what church people say and do?

"the authority the Lord gave us for building you up"-2 Corinthians 10:8

No! I will not have this! I will decide what is good for me and everybody else. I will be in charge!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

"the authority the Lord gave us for building you up"-2 Corinthians 10:8

No! I will not have this! I will decide what is good for me and everybody else. I will be in charge!

Don't we all have some measure of that kind of authority to build each other up?

What is your last sentence? Is that a false characterization that pastors and their toadies use to keep everyone in fear of transgressing a nebulous authority, and thus subject to their control? The projection of rebellion onto people in order to make them fearful and thus easily controlled?

 

[Ralph-]

Don't we all have some measure of that kind of authority to build each other up?

No.

We all have some measure of a gift to build others up, but only some of us have been given authority in the operation of the gifts.

What is your last sentence? Is that a false characterization that pastors and their toadies use to keep everyone in fear of transgressing a nebulous authority, and thus subject to their control?

No. That is an accurate characterization of human beings.

Look in the mirror.

We all want to control what gets taught and we all have our opinions of how church ought to be. It's just that some men among us really do have authority given to them from God to control that. Given to them for our good, not given to them to serve a personal agenda of control in order to make their own lives safe and comfortable.

And just because there are men who get into authoritative leadership who either don't belong there or are using their position to make their own lives comfortable and safe doesn't mean women are also ordained to that position of authority. But that is the twisted reasoning that some people use to justify women being pastors.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

No.

We all have some measure of a gift to build others up, but only some of us have been given authority in the operation of the gifts.

No. That is an accurate characterization of human beings.

Look in the mirror.

We all want to control what gets taught and we all have our opinions of how church ought to be. It's just that some men among us really do have authority given to them from God to control that. Given to them for our good, not given to them to serve a personal agenda of control in order to make their own lives safe and comfortable.

And just because there are men who get into authoritative leadership who either don't belong there or are using their position to make their own lives comfortable and safe doesn't mean women are also ordained to that position of authority. But that is the twisted reasoning that some people use to justify women being pastors.

Well let me rephrase my comment and in doing so demonstrate the authority given to me by GOD.

What you stated before is a false characterization that pastors and their toadies use to keep everyone in fear of transgressing a nebulous authority, and thus subject to their control. It is a projection of rebellion onto people in order to make them fearful and thus easily controlled. That kind of pastoral authority is a ruse to control what people say lest pastoral income becomes threatened.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Well let me rephrase my comment and in doing so demonstrate the authority given to me by GOD.

What you stated before is a false characterization that pastors and their toadies use to keep everyone in fear of transgressing a nebulous authority, and thus subject to their control. It is a projection of rebellion onto people in order to make them fearful and thus easily controlled. That kind of pastoral authority is a ruse to control what people say lest pastoral income becomes threatened.

You see, that's how godly authority works. Truth itself is authority. A pastor only has authority when he speaks the truth. If godly men speak truth to a pastor and he ignores it, he is in rebellion.

 

[Dino246]

It may seem backward but it's not. If one must understand one of God's commands before doing it then they are lacking in faith. With faith one will follow the command first and wait for God to provide any explanation later. If one must analyze and understand a command before following it, then they are relying on their own understanding and not trusting in God. God's faithful followers don't need any reasons for following His orders other than the fact that the orders have been given.

You have created a false dichotomy.

Our relationship with God through Christ is not merely one of following commands... it's sad that you see it that way. Not only are you really missing out, it also explains your dogmatism on so many issues.

 

[Dino246]

You see, that's how godly authority works. Truth itself is authority. A pastor only has authority when he speaks the truth. If godly men speak truth to a pastor and he ignores it, he is in rebellion.

... and he will likely accuse them of rebellion.

 

[hornetguy]

This thread is following the same route as the "women pasters" thread from a while back.

We are arguing over something, without having a scriptural definition of it.

What many people call a "pastor" is simply a preacher. Usually no more "in authority" than any other believer. That person's "job" is to prepare a lesson to be taught, or preached, to the assembly. Even though there are very few, if any, scriptural references to having only one person do this, that is what most modern assemblies have done.

The true role of "pastor/bishop/overseer/elder" is a completely different job. That is the job that we have the requirements given for when Paul is talking in Titus 1. The same qualifications are given for being an "overseer" in 1 Timothy.

These men are to be the spiritual leaders of the assembly. That is why the requirements are there. They are overseeing the family of Jesus, and should be qualified to do so.
In most assemblies, if the overseer/elders are doing their job, it is almost a full time thing. It occupies a large part of his spare time. Adding to those responsibilities the burden of preparing a lesson to be taught from the pulpit is too much for most men. That is why assemblies have by and large gone to the hiring of a person specifically for preaching.
That person is not a "pastor". That person is a teacher/preacher. There are no scriptural requirements for being a preacher, other than the admonition that "not many" people are able to take on that responsibility.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

... and he will likely accuse them of rebellion.

That's exactly what typically will happen, which means that they are not submitting themselves to godly authority. GOD didn't create a hierarchy of authority in the church; the Romans did.

 

[Dino246]

That's exactly what typically will happen, which means that they are not submitting themselves to godly authority. GOD didn't create a hierarchy of authority in the church; the Romans did.

I'd ask you to clarify something: do you believe that there is "no God-given authority at all" within the church, or that "the authority God has given is not domineering in nature"?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I'd ask you to clarify something: do you believe that there is "no God-given authority at all" within the church, or that "the authority God has given is not domineering in nature"?

Sure there's authority, but it is limited IMO to matters of doctrine, ensuring order within gatherings and directing administrative functions (like funding for missions). That's all I can see at the moment. Should I be seeing something else?

 

[Ralph-]

Well let me rephrase my comment and in doing so demonstrate the authority given to me by GOD.

What you stated before is a false characterization that pastors and their toadies use to keep everyone in fear of transgressing a nebulous authority, and thus subject to their control. It is a projection of rebellion onto people in order to make them fearful and thus easily controlled. That kind of pastoral authority is a ruse to control what people say lest pastoral income becomes threatened.

Nope. Haven't seen that. I don't see pastors demanding submission. I see the exact opposite. I see congregations demanding submission of the pastorate. "We want this. We want it this way. We want to preach. You need to be doing this." Blah, blah, blah and on it goes, the church in the rebellion of the flesh.

For all of the short comings of the pastorate, I do give lots of credit to the pastors in the Evangelical churches here in America for NOT lording it over their congregations and, quite frankly, having a lot of patience and long suffering with this discontented mob of us who insist they do it this way or that way and only say this or that. That's not to say they don't need a good shake up in their modus operandi. But ordaining women is not one of the things they should do.

 

[Nehemiah6]

That's exactly what typically will happen, which means that they are not submitting themselves to godly authority. GOD didn't create a hierarchy of authority in the church; the Romans did.

More nonsense to reject Bible truth. Blame the Romans for everything except their road-building capabilities.

 

[Dino246]

More nonsense to reject Bible truth. Blame the Romans for everything except their road-building capabilities.

So what do you think the hierarchy is/should be?

 

[loyaldisciple]

We all have the same equal authority in the earthen bodies of death.

2Co 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Those who are qualified are not to lord it over men or woman. The qualification must be proved as a family affair.(both offices bishops and deacons) Christ has the single office as the High priest. Other wise there are no single offices.

It takes a dynamic duel.A sucessful office seems to leave out the back bone the family.The man seems to get the credit in many sects.

Note…. the requirements for the office in purple

The gift is duel in purpose.The two are one.

This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.


No wife as a helpmeet, no office. No children to try the husband and wife, no office?

You just contradicted yourself in this posting. How do you figure "everyone" is to be of "equal authority" when you include the following: "ruling their children and their own houses well." Explain how one of "equal authority" is to rule ?