I have a question

[jchavez]

Hello everyone, this is my first post so I will introduce myself. I was raised Baptist but around the age of 13 I began to have a resentment towards Christianity, feeling as if I had been brainwashed as a child. As I got older I have become more open minded and realized that I was being ignorant in my resentment for the religion. I no longer say or do things to try to offend Christians as I did in the past. I have friends of many different christian religions now, Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, still many childhood friends from the church I went to as a child who are still believers, I also have friends that are atheists. I try to be as open minded with their beliefs as possible. I would consider myself a hopeful agnostic, but definitely I do not believe in the Christian god. I do not write this to offend anyone, but I personally believe that this god is unjust.

One question I have for you all is why did your god create a whole race of people, the native Americans who lived on what is now the United states for thousands of years, just to send them all to hell? Most Christian beliefs that I am familiar with have the belief that if you do not believe in Jesus Christ, you will go straight to hell. There were tribes of natives that were brutal, like the Mayans and Aztecs, but there were also those who learned to live in peace for thousands of years, like the Iroquois. It isn't fair in my morals to create all these natives who had never had the chance of hearing of this religion until the 1400's just to send them all to hell.

 

[Kaycie]

Hello, thank you for your honesty, and for your question. Certainly you are entitled to your free will to think and choose as you wish.

Before I read it in the bible, I had the same thought. It says that God's invisible qualities are clearly seen in nature so that mankind is without excuse. I have really pondered this in my life. My conclusions are that I believe in right and wrong, good and evil- and that there is a source of both- God and Satan.

Yes there was a race of people on this land before it became America. But look at the situation through spiritual glasses. These Indians could also see by nature God's invisible qualities, yet they neither glorified Him as God nor gave Him thanks. Instead they worshipped the creation instead of the Creator. They even worshipped and prayed to their dead ancestors. Meanwhile, a group of people are looking for their own land on which to have the freedom to worship God. God gave them the land, just like in the Old Testament God had the evil nations leave the land of Canaan, and God's people took it over.

So Americans win America. Meanwhile you have another people who are worshipping evil spirits. They shed innocent blood, rape, and maim as they please, chopping off limbs and shrinking heads. What happened in the Old Testament to an evil nation? It was either destroyed or they went into slavery. So Africans went into slavery in America.

Things may seem out of control, it may seem there is someone to blame, but God is in control, and the spiritual battle between good and evil continues today, as it will till the end. America is now in danger because Americans are beginning not to use their freedom to worship God, but to practice homosexuality, immodest dress, and a lack of love, respect, and decency. But God says that if His people (not the worldly people) who are called by His name (Christians) would humble themselves and pray, and seek His face, and turn away from their wicked ways- that He will hear them and He will heal their land.

 

[Tintin]

Hello everyone, this is my first post so I will introduce myself. I was raised Baptist but around the age of 13 I began to have a resentment towards Christianity, feeling as if I had been brainwashed as a child. As I got older I have become more open minded and realized that I was being ignorant in my resentment for the religion. I no longer say or do things to try to offend Christians as I did in the past. I have friends of many different christian religions now, Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, still many childhood friends from the church I went to as a child who are still believers, I also have friends that are atheists. I try to be as open minded with their beliefs as possible. I would consider myself a hopeful agnostic, but definitely I do not believe in the Christian god. I do not write this to offend anyone, but I personally believe that this god is unjust.

One question I have for you all is why did your god create a whole race of people, the native Americans who lived on what is now the United states for thousands of years, just to send them all to hell? Most Christian beliefs that I am familiar with have the belief that if you do not believe in Jesus Christ, you will go straight to hell. There were tribes of natives that were brutal, like the Mayans and Aztecs, but there were also those who learned to live in peace for thousands of years, like the Iroquois. It isn't fair in my morals to create all these natives who had never had the chance of hearing of this religion until the 1400's just to send them all to hell.

God created everyone with knowledge of Him. Not to mention, all people come from Noah and his family, and well before that, Adam and Eve. So knowledge and belief in God has been there from the beginning. Whether people chose to believe or reject Him is another matter altogether.

Native Americans may have begun travelling to the Americas following the tower of Babel dispersal in Shinar (in what is now Syria or more likely in Iraq). This would have been a series of migrations beginning several generations after everyone on earth was scattered in a confusion of languages (see Genesis 10 and 11). Some family groups arrived not long after, some migrated there much later. While I don't know about all Native American tribes, it's well known that some believed in one supreme God who created everything etc. But then over time, those beliefs were corrupted and became the worship of creation, instead of the Creator.

Finally, no group of people has ever been properly peaceful (save for Adam and Eve). The Mayans and Aztec tribes may have been more violent than the Iroquois, but I'm sure the latter still struggled with violence with their enemies and within their community (sin is after all, a worldwide problem).

 

[jchavez]

I don't believe everyone was born with the knowledge of the Christian god. There are children in Iraq and Palestine and Afghanistan who are born into Islam, we could say this is the same God as the Christian God, there are similarities in the religions, but for most Christians I know, the Muslim God and the Christian God are not the same being, do these children that are born into Islam and are killed as innocent civilians by IED's deserving of going to hell?

 

[jchavez]

Also, going with what you said there, God is all knowing isn't he? Natives did not believe in Jesus Christ, they did not know Christ existed. In Christianity, after the resurrection of Christ you can only be saved if you believe in Jesus. That is at least 14 generations of people all over the America's being created to go straight to hell.

 

[jchavez]

Another thing, I do not consider myself without flaws. But I know I will probably never go back to Christianity, I consider myself a decent person. Am I going to hell in your beliefs?

 

[Ahwatukee]

I do not write this to offend anyone, but I personally believe that this god is unjust.

Hello jchavez,

You know, one of the perks of being God is that, He is Sovereign and doesn't have to answer to anyone regarding anything and that because he created everything and everyone. The God that you say is unjust is the One who brought you into existence and is the same God that you are going to have to stand before, regardless of your beliefs or lack of. Now to answer your question:

One question I have for you all is why did your god create a whole race of people, the native Americans who lived on what is now the United states for thousands of years, just to send them all to hell?

Because sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned. And because of this, all have been separated from God regardless of nation, tribe, people and language. That being said, no one is entitled to salvation, not even those whom God saved and that because salvation is a free gift through faith in Son of God who shed his blood to pay the penalty for sin.

Your claim of God being unjust will not make you exempt from judgment and in fact, you will be judged for saying that God is unjust, that is unless you repent and receive Christ.

Most Christian beliefs that I am familiar with have the belief that if you do not believe in Jesus Christ, you will go straight to hell.

The truth is that, if anyone who does not trust in Christ as the One who provided salvation for them, then they will first go to Hades, which is in the heart of the earth, where they will be resurrected at the great white throne judgment and stand before God and be accountable for every sin they ever committed. After that, they will be thrown into the final place of punishment, which is the lake of fire. On the other hand, Christ was held accountable for all sin, taking the wrath upon him that we deserve and God credits those who will believe in him with righteousness for their faith. Those who do not trust in Christ will be held accountable for their own sins. Every idle word that men will speak they will give an account for. But for those who trust in Christ, their sins have already been addressed by Christ on the cross.

I truly hope that you will reconsider your position regarding this matter, because your disagreement regarding God not being just is not going to keep you from judgment.

 

[Kaycie]

I don't believe everyone was born with the knowledge of the Christian god. There are children in Iraq and Palestine and Afghanistan who are born into Islam, we could say this is the same God as the Christian God, there are similarities in the religions, but for most Christians I know, the Muslim God and the Christian God are not the same being, do these children that are born into Islam and are killed as innocent civilians by IED's deserving of going to hell?

It is seen that there is a God- whether or not they are lied to about who He is or what He's like.

 

[jchavez]

God created everyone with knowledge of Him. Not to mention, all people come from Noah and his family, and well before that, Adam and Eve. So knowledge and belief in God has been there from the beginning. Whether people chose to believe or reject Him is another matter altogether.

Native Americans may have begun travelling to the Americas following the tower of Babel dispersal in Shinar (in what is now Syria or more likely in Iraq). This would have been a series of migrations beginning several generations after everyone on earth was scattered in a confusion of languages (see Genesis 10 and 11). Some family groups arrived not long after, some migrated there much later. While I don't know about all Native American tribes, it's well known that some believed in one supreme God who created everything etc. But then over time, those beliefs were corrupted and became the worship of creation, instead of the Creator.

Finally, no group of people has ever been properly peaceful (save for Adam and Eve). The Mayans and Aztec tribes may have been more violent than the Iroquois, but I'm sure the latter still struggled with violence with their enemies and within their community (sin is after all, a worldwide problem).

So white men are without sin? You talk about slavery like that is what black people deserved. No one deserves to be treated the way that entire race of people were treated. How do you think the white men won America? Through lies, torture, rape, murder. Most natives welcomed the white men peacefully and with hospitality into their land, what was their reward? Raping their wives, killing their children, giving them small pox and the bubonic plague. Natives used to thrive in this land, but now barely even exist. That tells me, if God is in control, he is bloodthirsty and unjust in my own opinion.

 

[Tintin]

We can't convince you of any of this. Only Holy Spirit can do that.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Another thing, I do not consider myself without flaws. But I know I will probably never go back to Christianity, I consider myself a decent person. Am I going to hell in your beliefs?

jchavez,

Regarding the above, God has already answered your question:

"There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

This means that no one meets God's standards for righteousness, no matter how good one thinks he is. God has demonstrated throughout scripture that, unless there is a shedding of blood there is no forgiveness for sins. Jesus (God in the flesh) lived a perfect life as a human, meeting the righteous requirements of the law and paid the penalty for sin, which he did not owe, the righteous for the unrighteous. It doesn't matter what religion or belief anyone is, because there is only One God who created all things and all beings and he is the One that we have to give an account to. Again, for believers, Christ was held accountable for them. But for those who reject his sacrifice for them, then there is no other sacrifice left for sins and condemning judgment is all that is left. That's the situation.

 

[Tintin]

So white men are without sin? You talk about slavery like that is what black people deserved. No one deserves to be treated the way that entire race of people were treated. How do you think the white men won America? Through lies, torture, rape, murder. Most natives welcomed the white men peacefully and with hospitality into their land, what was their reward? Raping their wives, killing their children, giving them small pox and the bubonic plague. Natives used to thrive in this land, but now barely even exist. That tells me, if God is in control, he is bloodthirsty and unjust in my own opinion.

Wow. Reactionary, much? I said nothing of the sort. I think you have an agenda. All people are guilty of sin and there is only one race - we're all one human family. I don't think black people deserved slavery and nor did anyone else deserve slavery. Did you know the word slave came from 'Slav'. In the Middle Ages, Muslims took upwards of 1 million white people from their homelands and sold them into slavery. Humans have made slaved of each other for thousands of years, no one is innocent. Finally, I do agree white people ravished the native tribes (both their land and their people) and it is horrible. But again, no-one is innocent. People have been ravishing each other's lands and people for thousands of years. I'm not saying it's right. It's not. But let's not just focus on one people group, okay?

 

[jchavez]

Well I am not really trying to be convinced, just wanted see your thoughts.

 

[jchavez]

Wow. Reactionary, much? I said nothing of the sort. I think you have an agenda. All people are guilty of sin and there is only one race - we're all one human family. I don't think black people deserved slavery and nor did anyone else deserve slavery. Did you know the word slave came from 'Slav'. In the Middle Ages, Muslims took upwards of 1 million white people from their homelands and sold them into slavery. Humans have made slaved of each other for thousands of years, no one is innocent. Finally, I do agree white people ravished the native tribes (both their land and their people) and it is horrible. But again, no-one is innocent. People have been ravishing each other's lands and people for thousands of years. I'm not saying it's right. It's not. But let's not just focus on one people group, okay?

This was a response to the girl, because she said that natives and African's were punished with slavery for their beliefs in evil entities. I believe all races and religions have beauty to them, also their shortcomings.

 

[RickyZ]

Hello everyone, this is my first post so I will introduce myself. I was raised Baptist but around the age of 13 I began to have a resentment towards Christianity, feeling as if I had been brainwashed as a child. As I got older I have become more open minded and realized that I was being ignorant in my resentment for the religion. I no longer say or do things to try to offend Christians as I did in the past. I have friends of many different christian religions now, Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, still many childhood friends from the church I went to as a child who are still believers, I also have friends that are atheists. I try to be as open minded with their beliefs as possible. I would consider myself a hopeful agnostic, but definitely I do not believe in the Christian god. I do not write this to offend anyone, but I personally believe that this god is unjust.

One question I have for you all is why did your god create a whole race of people, the native Americans who lived on what is now the United states for thousands of years, just to send them all to hell? Most Christian beliefs that I am familiar with have the belief that if you do not believe in Jesus Christ, you will go straight to hell. There were tribes of natives that were brutal, like the Mayans and Aztecs, but there were also those who learned to live in peace for thousands of years, like the Iroquois. It isn't fair in my morals to create all these natives who had never had the chance of hearing of this religion until the 1400's just to send them all to hell.

God is not in charge here. He gave charge over creation to us, we gave it to satan. satan rules this world, not God. That's the first thing to understand.

Secondly, one is born innocent until one reaches whatever point it is that one thinks they know enough to make a decision. And the Holy Spirit woos all men. Just because human missionaries never reached this or that group, it doesn't mean God's Spirit hasn't.

Going back to no. 1, all men inhabit a world ruled by beings who sole purpose is to make sure we make the wrong decisions.

And who's to say that, despite cultural norms, there weren't individuals within unreached groups that didn't respond to the Holy Spirit's wooing? If one by the Spirit acknowledges the true redeemer it doesn't matter if they don't know our western names for Him, does it?

And lastly, God doesn't send people to hell. He lets them choose to be with Him or not. I believe the lake of fire is created by the decreation of this present earth and heavens, and that people who reject God for this world are simply given it in it's natural state apart from Him.

The vengeful God you seek to understand retired when Christ rose. And anyone any where who accepts the Holy Spirit's witness to that redeemer inherits both a redeemed and new creation.














God's Holy Spirit

 

[jchavez]

God is not in charge here. He gave charge over creation to us, we gave it to satan. satan rules this world, not God. That's the first thing to understand.sss

Secondly, one is born innocent until one reaches whatever point it is that one thinks they know enough to make a decision. And the Holy Spirit woos all men. Just because human missionaries never reached this or that group, it doesn't mean God's Spirit hasn't.

Going back to no. 1, all men inhabit a world ruled by beings who sole purpose is to make sure we make the wrong decisions.

And who's to say that, despite cultural norms, there weren't individuals within unreached groups that didn't respond to the Holy Spirit's wooing? If one by the Spirit acknowledges the true redeemer it doesn't matter if they don't know our western names for Him, does it?

And lastly, God doesn't send people to hell. He lets them choose to be with Him or not. I believe the lake of fire is created by the decreation of this present earth and heavens, and that people who reject God for this world are simply given it in it's natural state apart from Him.

The vengeful God you seek to understand retired when Christ rose. And anyone any where who accepts the Holy Spirit's witness to that redeemer inherits both a redeemed and new creation.














God's Holy Spirit

Thank you for not being rude about this topic, but if you believe God is all knowing, he knows what has happened and what will happen, and at the same time all loving, how come he let us choose, let's some of us go to hell? Our opinion's just differ, my personal morality does not see that as all loving though. The problem I have with what you said also is that you talk of the new testament as being so different from the old testament, and it was quite different but there were still things I find questionable in it. Like Jesus saying slavery is okay in Leviticus

 

[wwjd_kilden]

Hi

Let me try to approach your latest statement

Like Jesus saying slavery is okay in Leviticus

Unless I am very mistaken, most cultures of that time dealt with slaves (as we have already discussed, there are many nations guilty of this even up to modern times). It was considered natural.

Now there is one thing that separates the slaves of the jews from those of our nations (I think):

- People could sell themselves into slavery to pay off debt
- Every 50 years (the year of jubilee) all slaves were to be freed and debts forgiven

That being said. I don't agree with slavery of any kind, but that is beyond the point:
I can't stop being a human being because we are evil, nor can I stop being a christian because I disagree with some of the events of the bible. Think about it: Even if we disagree with some of what God does: What is the alternative?
The alternative is what Satan thinks is right....

 

[jchavez]

Hi

Let me try to approach your latest statement

Like Jesus saying slavery is okay in Leviticus

Unless I am very mistaken, most cultures of that time dealt with slaves (as we have already discussed, there are many nations guilty of this even up to modern times). It was considered natural.

Now there is one thing that separates the slaves of the jews from those of our nations (I think):

- People could sell themselves into slavery to pay off debt
- Every 50 years (the year of jubilee) all slaves were to be freed and debts forgiven

That being said. I don't agree with slavery of any kind, but that is beyond the point:
I can't stop being a human being because we are evil, nor can I stop being a christian because I disagree with some of the events of the bible. Think about it: Even if we disagree with some of what God does: What is the alternative?
The alternative is what Satan thinks is right....

Thanks for the input, but I personally find slavery wrong, and Jesus not condemning it seems wrong to me. In my eyes most religions just have too much injustice for me and an unjust God is no God for me.

 

[Ahwatukee]

how come he let us choose, let's some of us go to hell?

Hello again jchavez,

In relation to your question above, please consider the following: If there was a man on a street corner and there were 20 people surrounding him and he was giving out $100 bills, but he was only giving them to five of the twenty people, would the man be unfair in doing this? Some would probably say yes, but the fact is that, the man would not be unfair in doing so and that because it is his money and none of the people are entitled to it, not even the one's who he is giving the money to. It is the same with God and salvation. No one is entitled to salvation, not even those whom God has chosen to give it to. Regarding those he did not choose to give it to, they are still guilty of sin. God, in His love and mercy decided to save some.

 

[jchavez]

Hello again jchavez,

In relation to your question above, please consider the following: If there was a man on a street corner and there were 20 people surrounding him and he was giving out $100 bills, but he was only giving them to five of the twenty people, would the man be unfair in doing this? Some would probably say yes, but the fact is that, the man would not be unfair in doing so and that because it is his money and none of the people are entitled to it, not even the one's who he is giving the money to. It is the same with God and salvation. No one is entitled to salvation, not even those whom God has chosen to give it to. Regarding those he did not choose to give it to, they are still guilty of sin. God, in His love and mercy decided to save some.

Except that man didn't create those people, and God doesn't have a limited number of people he can save... so then because God made us all, and doesn't have a limit on how many of us he can save, why does he still let most of us knowingly go to hell? Does he get some sort of kick out of it?