Children and the covenant

[phil36]

Why do some presume that children of believers are not covenant children, when was this commanded to stop?

are they/aren't they?

 

[Ariel82]

All children belong to God until they turn away from Him. They must chose to repent and turn back.

 

[Samie]

Because of Christ's life, death and resurrection, people are born "in Christ". New-born babes are covenant children. This is why there will be babies in the new earth (Isa 11:6-9).

 

[phil36]

All children belong to God until they turn away from Him. They must chose to repent and turn back.

Everything in the universe is God's, as He created everything. However, in the more restrictive familial sense what you have said has no biblical warrant.

 

[phil36]

Because of Christ's life, death and resurrection, people are born "in Christ". New-born babes are covenant children. This is why there will be babies in the new earth (Isa 11:6-9).

I'l refer you to the answer given to Ariel above or better read John 3.

 

[Samie]

Hi Phil;

Did you read Isa 11:6-9? Why are there children in the new earth?

As to John 3, what's your point? Being born again? So when are people born again?

 

[phil36]

Hi Samie,
Yes I have read Isaiah 11:6-9. It is a great symbolic picture of the new heavens and new earth, its shows an eden-esque picture. I have know doubt that there will be children with the Lord.

People are only born again when they are regenerated. Nicodemus wondered at this aswell, ' ''“Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”'' (John 3:4b). The implication here is that no one is renewed or even in Christ without the 'New Birth' ...thats why Nicodemus was perplexed. Yet, As Jesus reminded him, Nicodemus being the teaher of Isrel should have known better. No one is natural born into Christ.

 

[Ariel82]

All of humanity are children of Adam and Eve. God gave promise of the Savior through the Seed who is Christ Jesus in Genesis 3.

All children would therefore be "covenant" children until they break the covenant by willfully sinning and turning from God.

While they are children, before the age of reckoning (most,say at 13) kids are held blameless.

Note i said blameless not sinless.

Not sure where you are going with this thread.

 

[phil36]

All of humanity are children of Adam and Eve. God gave promise of the Savior through the Seed who is Christ Jesus in Genesis 3.

All children would therefore be "covenant" children until they break the covenant by willfully sinning and turning from God.

While they are children, before the age of reckoning (most,say at 13) kids are held blameless.

Note i said blameless not sinless.

Not sure where you are going with this thread.

Hi arie,

you need to reread my post.

'believers'

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Because of Christ's life, death and resurrection, people are born "in Christ".

That which is first is flesh, and after being born again from above by the Holy Spirit then one is truly "in Christ."

 

[Ariel82]

See that's where we disagree...I would be inclusive of all children being covenant children, not just those of believers.

Perhaps it was different before Jesus as Paul alludes to in acts to the Athens, but now as in Today God calls all people to salvation through Christ.

 

[Ariel82]

I agree everyone needs to be born again to truly be in Christ. However, babies and small children are covered not by their parents belief or lack but God's grace.

 

[Ariel82]

*“See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven. - Matthew 18:10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew18:10&version=NIV

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

That which is first is flesh, and after being born again from above by the Holy Spirit then one is truly "in Christ."

I agree with this,

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ,
he is none of his.

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man,
but of God.

But here, I was curious, would this indicate the possibility of a child in the womb being filled with the Holy Ghost?

Well, even though I know its John (who law and the prophets prophesied till) the messenger sent before the Lord where it says

Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink;
and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

So John would be conceived the ordinary way but be filled with the Holy Ghost from his mothers womb

Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

Whereas Mary mother of Jesus (he himself conceived not in the ordinary way obviously) but by the Holy Ghost greeted Elisabeth and she was filled herself with the Holy Ghost.

But do you think that could extend beyond the special circumstances of John? I am not too convinced, I thought, well, maybe because of what Paul said, but even though Paul said,

Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, that didnt mean Paul was filled with the Holy Ghost from his mothers womb. Since we see Annanias come to Paul (called Saul then) in Acts 9:17 ... saying, "Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost".

But then again, even that wouldnt be so odd considering John the baptist who would be filled with the Holy Ghost from the womb but when Jesus come out to be batized by him Mat 3:14-15 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now:
for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness.
Then he suffered him.

And I would typically just be distracted more by the fact that Jesus was getting water baptized (for repentance as John put it) and not think twice about John.

What baptism would John speaking of concerning himself? Because Jesus (who was concieved of the Holy Ghost) come out to Johns water baptism (that he be revealed to Israel). But John being already filled with the Holy Ghost (from his mothers womb) and sent by God ahead of Christ also needed to be batized, but which baptism was John talking about?

John had said as he baptized with water for repentance (and taught of one coming after him) that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Ghost and with fire (and we know John was filled with the Holy Ghost already).

You have anything on that perhaps?

God bless

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

I agree with this,

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ,
he is none of his.

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man,
but of God.

But here, I was curious, would this indicate the possibility of a child in the womb being filled with the Holy Ghost?

Well, even though I know its John (who law and the prophets prophesied till) the messenger sent before the Lord where it says

Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink;
and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

So John would be conceived the ordinary way but be filled with the Holy Ghost from his mothers womb

Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

Whereas Mary mother of Jesus (he himself conceived not in the ordinary way obviously) but by the Holy Ghost greeted Elisabeth and she was filled herself with the Holy Ghost.

But do you think that could extend beyond the special circumstances of John? I am not too convinced, I thought, well, maybe because of what Paul said, but even though Paul said,

Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, that didnt mean Paul was filled with the Holy Ghost from his mothers womb. Since we see Annanias come to Paul (called Saul then) in Acts 9:17 ... saying, "Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost".

But then again, even that wouldnt be so odd considering John the baptist who would be filled with the Holy Ghost from the womb but when Jesus come out to be batized by him Mat 3:14-15 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now:
for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness.
Then he suffered him.

And I would typically just be distracted more by the fact that Jesus was getting water baptized (for repentance as John put it) and not think twice about John.

What baptism would John speaking of concerning himself? Because Jesus (who was concieved of the Holy Ghost) come out to Johns water baptism (that he be revealed to Israel). But John being already filled with the Holy Ghost (from his mothers womb) and sent by God ahead of Christ also needed to be batized, but which baptism was John talking about?

John had said as he baptized with water for repentance (and taught of one coming after him) that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Ghost and with fire (and we know John was filled with the Holy Ghost already).

You have anything on that perhaps?

God bless

Yeah I would say John was a special circumstance because of what Jesus said of John.....

Matthew 11:11
Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

Also we know John would come in the power and spirit of Elijah....

Luke 1:17
And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

What I also found interesting is how the baby John reacted at the presence of the Lord, and Elisabeth was also filled with the Holy Ghost....

Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

The babe John leaping inside the womb also reminded me of Johns words here about how hearing the Lords voice John then had great joy and rejoicing.

John 3:29
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

Yeah I would say John was a special circumstance because of what Jesus said of John.....

Matthew 11:11
Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

Also we know John would come in the power and spirit of Elijah....

Luke 1:17
And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

What I also found interesting is how the baby John reacted at the presence of the Lord, and Elisabeth was also filled with the Holy Ghost....

Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

The babe John leaping inside the womb also reminded me of Johns words here about how hearing the Lords voice John then had great joy and rejoicing.

John 3:29
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

You thought of the same ones I did, yes, John standing and hearing him and his joy there.

And my question was the same, seeing two women (even there) and the different ways their children were conceived (one after the flesh) though filled with the Holy Ghost where as Christ was made flesh (was by promise) conceived by the power of Holy Ghost. Just the two in the sense of them both (together) fulfilling all righteousness. John had as much a part in that as Jesus seem to show.


But yeah, instead of how its word, that John would be filled it answers more in Elisabeth there, but that is also not hard to see in a sense, every get greeted by a brother and everything within you feels like this child inside you leaping for joy? LOL I always get that visual sort of thought that comes to me through that particular greeting.

I had asked this question before elsewhere, but we all werent really sure (it was one of those) LOL

But thats okay because they always press you on to discovery, but I think I feel the same, the forerunner for Messiah was also spoken of before he was born, so the womb seems about right for him (particularly).

The Spirit and power of Elijah was the Holy Ghost correct? Thats certainly how I understand His power to be since that manifests in John by the same (although was prophesied of beforehand) whereas Elisha come after Elijah who got the "double portion" which in a sense (again) Christ (if just looking at the order of things alone) was born of the Holy Ghost, he was still anointed through the miistry of John (who was filled with the Holy Ghost) and yet the Spirit of God anointed him right there, which could also be seen as a double portion (in that particular sense).

Theres lots of similarities sittting there which I find interesting.

Thanks, God bless

 

[phil36]

Heres a question for you guys.... Since believers are the covenant people are their children included in the covenant people.. I'm not suggesting they are saved. As not Israel where 'Israel' and for 400 years before the Mosaic covenant. Which leads me to - if believers kids are not to be considered in covenant, then when was that commanded?

We know that the 'church' is made up of the visible and invisivle. In other words we see the visible, only Christ can see the visible and invisible (the real believers) the wheat and tares that grow in the same field.