The Bible, The theology, religion...and people?

[Txroads]

There have been some very interesting threads lately regarding healing faith, theology, grace and revelation.....
There have also been some threads as too true biblical teachers that a lot of folks should read....so...it brings me to this question......the Bible teachings have become so high profile by circus pastors on tv and other pastors who try to compete with "the show"....there are the philosophies and theology that spark heated debates all over this country, all over the world.....we have all almost recessed back to pharisees and sadducee debates.....almost turmoil... When does it stop and the only thing that matters is putting Christ in someone's life.... AND BEFORE THE DEBATE STARTS yes, I know they have to know the truth.....BUT, truly.. Isn't THE MOST important part before anything else, is putting them in the arms of Jesus first.....then all the other technical discussions can come about in regards to how the word is interpreted.....but.. What's happened?.....where is the love of first showing someone Jesus first....its not hard we make it hard...how easy is it??..... "LORD, remember me in your kingdom"..."I say to you....today...you will be with me in paradise"..............AND..... GO.....

 

[Dino246]

I don't want to start a war here, but even with basic salvation, there are many approaches. I would contrast Billy Graham's with Paul Washer's... one is 'just respond" while the other is "lets talk and ensure you know what the gospel is and what it means and entails", and I'm sure there are others. I think Jesus happily receives the sinner anyway, and all result in angels rejoicing in heaven. Personally I prefer "Welcome to the family; here's the fine print" in that order, but that's me... 25 years in and still reading the fine print!

 

[Txroads]

I don't want to start a war here, but even with basic salvation, there are many approaches. I would contrast Billy Graham's with Paul Washer's... one is 'just respond" while the other is "lets talk and ensure you know what the gospel is and what it means and entails", and I'm sure there are others. I think Jesus happily receives the sinner anyway, and all result in angels rejoicing in heaven. Personally I prefer "Welcome to the family; here's the fine print" in that order, but that's me... 25 years in and still reading the fine print!

Lol.... But that's the exact point... The fine print can always be explained later.....the fine print being when you start breaking into deep theology.....there is a time and a place.... If they are already overwhelmed realizing what their life has meant up to the point of knowing Jesus, why would you want to bury them in everything else just yet....

 

[Lost_sheep]

Back when I first got curious about Christianity, I very soon realized that there are a lot of different paths people seem to take that they think all gets them to the same place, and that thinking is one of the first things I didn't agree with. I'll hold up two examples, one of which will parallel what Dino said:

1. A person finds a Chick tract someplace and reads it. At the back of every one of them (they were distributed in prison and traded like baseball cards. I still have all 250 of the ones I collected), there is a text version of the "sinner's prayer" and a checkbox to denote that you've accepted Christ as your savior. Can you be saved this way? I ask this rhetorically, so let me finish.

2. Paul Washer tells a story of when he was in Alaska, and a "big, mountain of a man" came in looking forlorn, and after the sermon, brother Paul talked to him and found out the man had 3 weeks to live and was curious about his soul. Paul stayed with the man and read gospel after gospel to him, wrestling with him until the man had a revelation...."I'M SAVED! I'M SAVED!" Paul asked "How do you know?". The man replied - "It says right here in John 3:16 'For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life'" to which Paul asked "so how do you know you're saved? and the man replied "Haven't you ever read this?". Can a man be saved in a moment like this? Again, I ask rhetorically.

So, and here's my actual question, and I'm sure we all know the answer - is it the "method" of salvation that matters or is it the spiritual connection you receive from connecting with the sacrifice Jesus made for you, me and every human on Earth to put us right in the sight of God?

I've been PM'ing back and forth with a very helpful member about my own salvation, and it's brought to mind a few things - primarily that I've been saved but didn't realize it because I was expecting some "bolt from the blue" moment of transformation that hasn't occurred.

I have a suspicion though that come Judgment Day, Jesus is easily going to be able to separate out the sheep from the goats, and a lot of people who thought they were sheep will be standing with the goats because they didn't truly understand salvation but they put on a good act and played the role. Maybe I'll be in that bunch. I don't know.

 

[Txroads]

Back when I first got curious about Christianity, I very soon realized that there are a lot of different paths people seem to take that they think all gets them to the same place, and that thinking is one of the first things I didn't agree with. I'll hold up two examples, one of which will parallel what Dino said:

1. A person finds a Chick tract someplace and reads it. At the back of every one of them (they were distributed in prison and traded like baseball cards. I still have all 250 of the ones I collected), there is a text version of the "sinner's prayer" and a checkbox to denote that you've accepted Christ as your savior. Can you be saved this way? I ask this rhetorically, so let me finish.

2. Paul Washer tells a story of when he was in Alaska, and a "big, mountain of a man" came in looking forlorn, and after the sermon, brother Paul talked to him and found out the man had 3 weeks to live and was curious about his soul. Paul stayed with the man and read gospel after gospel to him, wrestling with him until the man had a revelation...."I'M SAVED! I'M SAVED!" Paul asked "How do you know?". The man replied - "It says right here in John 3:16 'For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life'" to which Paul asked "so how do you know you're saved? and the man replied "Haven't you ever read this?". Can a man be saved in a moment like this? Again, I ask rhetorically.

So, and here's my actual question, and I'm sure we all know the answer - is it the "method" of salvation that matters or is it the spiritual connection you receive from connecting with the sacrifice Jesus made for you, me and every human on Earth to put us right in the sight of God?

I've been PM'ing back and forth with a very helpful member about my own salvation, and it's brought to mind a few things - primarily that I've been saved but didn't realize it because I was expecting some "bolt from the blue" moment of transformation that hasn't occurred.

I have a suspicion though that come Judgment Day, Jesus is easily going to be able to separate out the sheep from the goats, and a lot of people who thought they were sheep will be standing with the goats because they didn't truly understand salvation but they put on a good act and played the role. Maybe I'll be in that bunch. I don't know.

Your still searching.... Asking... You've got questions so that keeps you out of the goats....lol... I guess my point is you got the opportunity to ask the questions without somebody" brow beating you"....i understand the" fine print"....but let's give someone enough reason that they themselves" ask to be saved"....instead of walkin up and them sayin help and you start with the" hellfire and brimestone" speaches.....i don't remember Jesus doin that either when He was one on one with the" sinners and tax collectors"....

 

[Chuckt]

Txroads,

I know people who were drinking in a bar and some well meaning Christian got on a bullhorn and shouted into the bar from outside the bar. That sounds mean, rude and a lot of bad things but the person who heard the gospel said they heard stuff they never heard before and the person got saved. The holy spirit uses different people because God saves people and it isn't so much the method.

Chuck

 

[Txroads]

And that was the exact point I was trying to make..... He got on that bull horn and gave a message.... He didn't start with the difference between sanctification and justification and spiritual discernment.........yes there's a time and a place for that....but it ain't when your on the bull horn...

 

[NayborBear]

Because of this perhaps?

Ezek.-13 (KJV)

19 And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die , and to save the souls alive that should not live , by your lying to my people that hear your lies?
20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly , and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go , even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly .
21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear , and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad , whom I have not made sad ; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life :

These here verses go directly against every, and, I mean every Church, I've ever stepped into. And, I've been to a few in my "walks around the block".

Being a Christian isn't easy! Was never intended to be easy!

Faith n empiricism? Oil n water! No matter how long er how hard ya shake 'em? They just don't mix.

 

[Txroads]

Because of this perhaps?

Ezek.-13 (KJV)

19 And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die , and to save the souls alive that should not live , by your lying to my people that hear your lies?
20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly , and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go , even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly .
21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear , and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad , whom I have not made sad ; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life :

These here verses go directly against every, and, I mean every Church, I've ever stepped into. And, I've been to a few in my "walks around the block".

Being a Christian isn't easy! Was never intended to be easy!

Faith n empiricism? Oil n water! No matter how long er how hard ya shake 'em? They just don't mix.

Papa bear I understand everything ya said.... I see what the Bible says.....but I'm gonna say it again..... Jesus didn't fire and brimstone people.....and I sure ain't sayin they don't need fire and brimstone.....you want to know who Jesus is... This is who he is... This is what he done and why..... And he did it for you...... Have a seat.... Get it all out.....now your calm and feel good?.... Ok let me step back while the lightening comes down.... Now fire and brimstone..... A receiving heart takes more than one that's ready to run, don't you think?

 

[Txroads]

Because of this perhaps?

Ezek.-13 (KJV)

19 And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die , and to save the souls alive that should not live , by your lying to my people that hear your lies?
20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly , and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go , even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly .
21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear , and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad , whom I have not made sad ; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life :

These here verses go directly against every, and, I mean every Church, I've ever stepped into. And, I've been to a few in my "walks around the block".

Being a Christian isn't easy! Was never intended to be easy!

Faith n empiricism? Oil n water! No matter how long er how hard ya shake 'em? They just don't mix.

Papa bear I understand everything ya said.... I see what the Bible says.....but I'm gonna say it again..... Jesus didn't fire and brimstone people.....and I sure ain't sayin they don't need fire and brimstone.....you want to know who Jesus is... This is who he is... This is what he done and why..... And he did it for you...... Have a seat.... Get it all out.....now your calm and feel good?.... Ok let me step back while the lightening comes down.... Now fire and brimstone..... A receiving heart takes more than one that's ready to run, don't you think?

 

[NayborBear]

Papa bear I understand everything ya said.... I see what the Bible says.....but I'm gonna say it again..... Jesus didn't fire and brimstone people.....and I sure ain't sayin they don't need fire and brimstone.....you want to know who Jesus is... This is who he is... This is what he done and why..... And he did it for you...... Have a seat.... Get it all out.....now your calm and feel good?.... Ok let me step back while the lightening comes down.... Now fire and brimstone..... A receiving heart takes more than one that's ready to run, don't you think?

Ya seen how many converts Jesus had following Him, when it came crunch time didn't ya? from 5,000 er more when He was giving out free food and health care, to 1 that betrayed Him, another, that denied Him, and probably wouldn't have had the other 10, had not the Father given them to Him. And?.....AND?....Jesus did something that you and I can't do!.....He did MIRACLES, and still they wouldn't stick around! Imagine, they were all waiting to get raptured, eh?

 

[crossnote]

Zechariah 4:6 KJVS
[6] Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.

 

[Txroads]

I get what y'all are saying... Papa bear, crossnote.... But I'm not tryin ya do miracles or do somethin only Jesus can do.... What am I tryin to say..................................................................................................................................... Aren't we tryin to throw too much at that person stickin his head in the door whose just lookin for simple answers to begin with?.... Yes time is short.....yes there is still so much to know and learn and true we may not even get to it all.....but you got someone comin in sayin "I'm hurtin....i don't understand...theres got too be more...i need help"......and you got folks comin up "well sanctification in general biblical foundations are the essence of.........or you start throwing around the difference between justification and salvation.......some of these folks.....some of these folks all they want is hope.....hope and someone who ain't gonna judge them or condemn them.....ya know.......this circus junk on TV drives me nuts some times because you get someone hollarin and run min around and jumpin up and down and some of these folks walk out and all of a sudden it's all gone.... Because it wasn't nothing on the inside it was all on the outside.............ughh..... Am I makin any kinda sense in what I'm tryin ta say?

 

[Gr8grace]

I get what y'all are saying... Papa bear, crossnote.... But I'm not tryin ya do miracles or do somethin only Jesus can do.... What am I tryin to say..................................................................................................................................... Aren't we tryin to throw too much at that person stickin his head in the door whose just lookin for simple answers to begin with?.... Yes time is short.....yes there is still so much to know and learn and true we may not even get to it all.....but you got someone comin in sayin "I'm hurtin....i don't understand...theres got too be more...i need help"......and you got folks comin up "well sanctification in general biblical foundations are the essence of.........or you start throwing around the difference between justification and salvation.......some of these folks.....some of these folks all they want is hope.....hope and someone who ain't gonna judge them or condemn them.....ya know.......this circus junk on TV drives me nuts some times because you get someone hollarin and run min around and jumpin up and down and some of these folks walk out and all of a sudden it's all gone.... Because it wasn't nothing on the inside it was all on the outside.............ughh..... Am I makin any kinda sense in what I'm tryin ta say?

I don't think we have to worry about it much. The Holy Spirit protects new believers and only lets unbelievers "hear" the pertinent information.

We may screw up, throw tizzy fits and argue till we are blue in the face. ANd if we are just way off coarse and have nothing productive to say..................the Holy Spirit protects that person who can't handle it.


And we may be in for some divine discipline for screwing up, but the Holy Spirit is the business to prepare us that we start spreading HIS message rather than ours. and if we don't get lumps on the way and screw up on the way........we ain't trying.

 

[Txroads]

I don't think we have to worry about it much. The Holy Spirit protects new believers and only lets unbelievers "hear" the pertinent information.

We may screw up, throw tizzy fits and argue till we are blue in the face. ANd if we are just way off coarse and have nothing productive to say..................the Holy Spirit protects that person who can't handle it.


And we may be in for some divine discipline for screwing up, but the Holy Spirit is the business to prepare us that we start spreading HIS message rather than ours. and if we don't get lumps on the way and screw up on the way........we ain't trying.

That my friend.... Was almost perfect

 

[Willie-T]

Back when I first got curious about Christianity, I very soon realized that there are a lot of different paths people seem to take that they think all gets them to the same place, and that thinking is one of the first things I didn't agree with. I'll hold up two examples, one of which will parallel what Dino said:

1. A person finds a Chick tract someplace and reads it. At the back of every one of them (they were distributed in prison and traded like baseball cards. I still have all 250 of the ones I collected), there is a text version of the "sinner's prayer" and a checkbox to denote that you've accepted Christ as your savior. Can you be saved this way? I ask this rhetorically, so let me finish.

2. Paul Washer tells a story of when he was in Alaska, and a "big, mountain of a man" came in looking forlorn, and after the sermon, brother Paul talked to him and found out the man had 3 weeks to live and was curious about his soul. Paul stayed with the man and read gospel after gospel to him, wrestling with him until the man had a revelation...."I'M SAVED! I'M SAVED!" Paul asked "How do you know?". The man replied - "It says right here in John 3:16 'For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life'" to which Paul asked "so how do you know you're saved? and the man replied "Haven't you ever read this?". Can a man be saved in a moment like this? Again, I ask rhetorically.

So, and here's my actual question, and I'm sure we all know the answer - is it the "method" of salvation that matters or is it the spiritual connection you receive from connecting with the sacrifice Jesus made for you, me and every human on Earth to put us right in the sight of God?

I've been PM'ing back and forth with a very helpful member about my own salvation, and it's brought to mind a few things - primarily that I've been saved but didn't realize it because I was expecting some "bolt from the blue" moment of transformation that hasn't occurred.

I have a suspicion though that come Judgment Day, Jesus is easily going to be able to separate out the sheep from the goats, and a lot of people who thought they were sheep will be standing with the goats because they didn't truly understand salvation but they put on a good act and played the role. Maybe I'll be in that bunch. I don't know.

Just to clear up a little point.... The "Sheep & Goats" weren't those "properly saved" or not. They were people who had either cared about other human beings, or who had not.

 

[Willie-T]

Ya seen how many converts Jesus had following Him, when it came crunch time didn't ya? from 5,000 er more when He was giving out free food and health care, to 1 that betrayed Him, another, that denied Him, and probably wouldn't have had the other 10, had not the Father given them to Him. And?.....AND?....Jesus did something that you and I can't do!.....He did MIRACLES, and still they wouldn't stick around! Imagine, they were all waiting to get raptured, eh?

"Waiting to get raptured." I love it. Sadly THAT actually is Christianity to many people.

 

[phil36]

Hi Txroads,

I think your own comment clers up alot....''circus pastors'' high profile false prophets. That being said in regards to evangelism, I haven't heard or witnessed myself any christian saying to a non believer that in order to be saved they most have the correct mode of baptism, they must have a certain flavour of eschatology and the list goes on.

I would suggest that atleast they should 'hear what the gospel is..or else how could one possibly properly believe. The gospel is for all men to hear and its a very simple message.

If on the other hand you maybe refering to the Bible discussion board here, then thats different, its not evangelism in the sense that it is not essentially for new believers.. therefore, there will be huge amounts of debate on primary,secondary and tertiary issues. Not many of the debates are on primary issues -that is the essential teachings (doctrine) that all christians should believe. Most of the debates are on secondary issues and while they may get heated they are not issues that will affect real salvation..unfortunatley some get confused over what is primary and what is secondary.. anything that is teriary is nothing really to worry about although may be helpful to debate.

Then there is just the plain wacky stuff that no sane person would want to believe christian or not!

So the reality is this...

The Bible matters, Theology matters and People matter. (religion can mean alsorts to alsorts).

Maybe a good idea would be for a thread just for non belivers or enquirers. or a thread for the ABC's (the essentials).