-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Read 1 Cor 15:20-28,it shows five events. The first resurrection (Jesus,the first fruits),the second resurrection (those who are saved at His coming),death is destroyed,Jesus delivers the (completed) kingdom to the Father, Jesus submits to the Father.
If you look in Rev 20 you see the same sequence of events,2 resurrections,then death is destroyed,then heaven. The thing that aligns these events is death being destroyed, it happens only once.
In 1 Cor 15 :52-54 it says that death is destroyed after the last (7th) trumpet.In Rev ch 11 it shows the second
resurrection in the story of the two witnesses and the 7th trumpet judgement scene.
If you look in Rev 20 you see the same sequence of events,2 resurrections,then death is destroyed,then heaven. The thing that aligns these events is death being destroyed, it happens only once.
In 1 Cor 15 :52-54 it says that death is destroyed after the last (7th) trumpet.In Rev ch 11 it shows the second
resurrection in the story of the two witnesses and the 7th trumpet judgement scene.
P
The rapture is pretrib.
The other day I found a gathering DURING THE GT,where jesus gathers a group of people.A harvest.
That really hurts everything but pre trib.
The dead in Christ rise FIRST.
So,what is this group of living being gathered BEFORE A POST TRIB RESURRECTION????
Rev 14;14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
It is a pretrib rapture.
there is zero evidence of a post trib rapture.
The other day I found a gathering DURING THE GT,where jesus gathers a group of people.A harvest.
That really hurts everything but pre trib.
The dead in Christ rise FIRST.
So,what is this group of living being gathered BEFORE A POST TRIB RESURRECTION????
Rev 14;14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
It is a pretrib rapture.
there is zero evidence of a post trib rapture.
I agree that this passage shows a resurrection, but I see it as the first resurrection when Jesus resurrected the saved in Hades and took them to heaven with him.
Continuing on to Rev 14:20 it says that the wine press was trodden outside the city. This would seem to be a reference to the "times of the Gentiles",Lk 21:24. That is,the natural branches will suffer God's withdrawing of blessings until they return to control Jerusalem and the "times of the Gentiles" ends.
After reading the passage in 1 Cor 15:20-28, how many resurrections do you believe there are?
Continuing on to Rev 14:20 it says that the wine press was trodden outside the city. This would seem to be a reference to the "times of the Gentiles",Lk 21:24. That is,the natural branches will suffer God's withdrawing of blessings until they return to control Jerusalem and the "times of the Gentiles" ends.
After reading the passage in 1 Cor 15:20-28, how many resurrections do you believe there are?
Hello abcdef,
The word "anatasis" translated "resurrection" ONLY refers to the body standing up again. Those across from Hades, in that location where Abraham and Lazarus were, were in their spiritual states when they were removed. They did not receive resurrected bodies at that time. The next phase of the first resurrection will be when Jesus gathers the church at his appearing. He is not returning to the earth at this event, but only to resurrect the dead in him and change the living and to catch the whole group up and take them back to the Father's house.
1). Jesus the first fruits (1 Cor.15:20-23)
2). The church at his appearing (1 Thes.4:13-18 & 1 Cor.15:51-53)
3). The male child/144,000 who are changed and caught up (Rev.12:5)
4). The two witnesses (Rev.11:11)
5). The great tribulation saints (Rev.20:4-6)
The above are all phases or stages of the first resurrection. All resurrections that take place prior to the resurrection which takes place at the end of the thousand years belong to the first resurrection.
The word "anatasis" translated "resurrection" ONLY refers to the body standing up again. Those across from Hades, in that location where Abraham and Lazarus were, were in their spiritual states when they were removed. They did not receive resurrected bodies at that time. The next phase of the first resurrection will be when Jesus gathers the church at his appearing. He is not returning to the earth at this event, but only to resurrect the dead in him and change the living and to catch the whole group up and take them back to the Father's house.
1). Jesus the first fruits (1 Cor.15:20-23)
2). The church at his appearing (1 Thes.4:13-18 & 1 Cor.15:51-53)
3). The male child/144,000 who are changed and caught up (Rev.12:5)
4). The two witnesses (Rev.11:11)
5). The great tribulation saints (Rev.20:4-6)
The above are all phases or stages of the first resurrection. All resurrections that take place prior to the resurrection which takes place at the end of the thousand years belong to the first resurrection.
That is interesting, I haven't heard that explanation before.
I see where you are coming from.
I don't look at Revelation as one timeline. I see it as a series of descriptions of the same events.
In this viewpoint for example, the 7th trumpet Ch 11, the 7th vial Ch 16, and the fire from heaven Ch 20 are the same event, the appearing of Jesus for His people.
Another example would be the opening of the abyss in the 5th trumpet Ch 9, the withdrawing of blessing on the seat of the Beast 5th vial Ch 16, and the opening of the bottomless pit in Ch 20, which show Satan being released from his abyss.
The 144,000 are all Israel from the first resurrection (Jacob, David,Daniel), the multitude no man could number are non- Israelites from the first resurrection (Noah, Adam, Able), they are in heaven now with Jesus.
The two Witnesses are Israel during the times of the Gentiles, who are restored to Jerusalem and then killed to be resurrected at the appearing of Jesus.
Those who live and reign for a thousand years are the saints from the first resurrection. John the Baptist would be a good example of this. He is alive now, reigning with Jesus in heaven and his words rule our lives, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sins of the world".
The Male child is Jesus, but he already came and was caught up to heaven, so that already happened.
I must sleep, read you tomorrow.
May God's love fill your heart to overflowing.
I see where you are coming from.
I don't look at Revelation as one timeline. I see it as a series of descriptions of the same events.
In this viewpoint for example, the 7th trumpet Ch 11, the 7th vial Ch 16, and the fire from heaven Ch 20 are the same event, the appearing of Jesus for His people.
Another example would be the opening of the abyss in the 5th trumpet Ch 9, the withdrawing of blessing on the seat of the Beast 5th vial Ch 16, and the opening of the bottomless pit in Ch 20, which show Satan being released from his abyss.
The 144,000 are all Israel from the first resurrection (Jacob, David,Daniel), the multitude no man could number are non- Israelites from the first resurrection (Noah, Adam, Able), they are in heaven now with Jesus.
The two Witnesses are Israel during the times of the Gentiles, who are restored to Jerusalem and then killed to be resurrected at the appearing of Jesus.
Those who live and reign for a thousand years are the saints from the first resurrection. John the Baptist would be a good example of this. He is alive now, reigning with Jesus in heaven and his words rule our lives, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sins of the world".
The Male child is Jesus, but he already came and was caught up to heaven, so that already happened.
I must sleep, read you tomorrow.
May God's love fill your heart to overflowing.
Hello again,
If the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments were speaking of the same events, that there are three sets of seven events would make no sense. Revelation is a chronological order of judgments of wrath.
7th Trumpet:
After the 4th trumpet, we have an eagle announcing woe! woe! woe! Each woe is representing its respective Trumpet that is, 5th Trumpet = 1st woe, 6th Trumpet = 2nd woe, 7th Trump = 3rd woe. There are clues in the context that demonstrate that the seals, trumpets and bowls are sequential. The first clues is that each set is numbered 1 thru 7. Much of the time after John finishes with a plague he then says, "after this." Here is an example: After the 6th seal has taken place, there is a pause in the action in that, John sees four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, which would demonstrate that the harm that they will inflict is not restricted to just Israel, but to the entire earth. These four angels will be given authority to harm the earth, the sea and the trees. After the sealing of the 144,000, which are the first fruits out of Israel and the introduction of the great tribulation saints (GTS), the 7th seal is opened. Following that, we immediately see the beginning results of the harm that those four angels are give power to inflict, because at the sounding of the 1st trumpet a third of the earth and a third of the trees will be burned up. This would demonstrate chronology.
1). Four angels are given power to harm the earth, sea and trees after the sealing of the 144,000
2). Sealing of the 144,000
3). A vision of the great tribulation saints, who are not the church
4). 7th seal (half hour of silence, incense and prayers, angels are given their trumpets)
5). 1st trumpet - Four angels begin their harm: a third of the earth and trees are burned up (see #1)
If you look at #1, the angels are given power to harm the earth, the sea and the trees, then when the 1st trumpet is blown, we see the results of their harm, which would demonstrate a chronological order. Here is another example:
Trumpets 5, 6 and 7 are each referred to as woes.
5th Trumpet/1st woe:
"The first woe has passed; behold, two woes are still to come."
6th Trumpet/2nd woe:
"The second woe has passed; behold, the third woe is soon to come."
As you can see from above, after the 5th trumpet the announcement is made that the 1st woe has passed and two more are to follow. Then, after the 6th trumpet, the announcement is made that the second woe has passed and that the third woe is coming soon. The words "has passed" and "still to come" demonstrates that trumpets 5, 6 and seven are in sequential order. Here is another example:
"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues--last, because with them God's wrath is completed.
In the verse above, the bowl judgments are treated as a unit and are the seven last plagues and "with them" God's wrath is completed. Since the bowl judgments are the "last" plagues of wrath, then there would necessarily have to be wrath that was first or before them, which would be the seals and the trumpets judgments.
The 7th trumpet is the 3rd woe, which is where Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven to the earth (woe to the inhabitants of the earth), which takes place in the middle of that last seven years and where they will be restricted to until the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. Chapter 11 contains information regarding the two witnesses who will prophecy in Jerusalem during the first 3 1/2 year period and will be killed by the beast, that angel, who comes up out of the Abyss at the sounding of the 5th trumpet (Rev.9:11).
Rev.20:1-3 is where Satan is thrown into the Abyss, which will have been opened back at the 5th trumpet. After he is thrown in, he will remain there until the end of the thousand years where he will be let out again for one last rebellion, where afterwards, he will be thrown into the lake of fire (Rev.20:10) Below is the chronological order of events:
* Jesus returns to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom after the 7th bowl has been poured out.
* The beast and false prophet are thrown alive into the lake of fire
* Satan is seized and thrown into the Abyss during Christ's thousand year reign
* Thousand year reign of Christ
* When the thousand years are over, Satan is released and causes the last rebellion
* Satan is thrown into the lake of fire
* The great white throne judgment takes place of the unrighteous dead
* New heaven, New earth, New Jerusalem: Eternity ..........................................
The Woman of Revelation 12:
* Clothed with the sun: Sun = Jacob
* Moon under her feet = Jacobs wife(s)
* Wearing a crown of twelve stars = twelve tribes of Israel
The woman as a whole = the nation Israel (See Gen.37:9-10)
The Great Multitude which no man could count:
* there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language.
The group above is made up of Gentiles and is not Israel. These are the great tribulation saints which are a separate Gentile group, where the 144,000 are those who come out of the twelve tribes of literal Israel. The mention of 144,000 and then the mention of a number that no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language, is demonstrating that God is being literal with these descriptions, i.e. a literal 144,000 and a great number of Gentile saints too numerous to count, they being two distinct groups.
The 144,000:
The first fruits to God out of literal Israel (gives birth to). The male child is not referring to Jesus, but is a collective name for the 144,000 who will be caught up to God's throne at during the middle of the seven years. This group is not resurrected, but according to the scripture, it appears that they, like the living church, will be changed and caught up.
Those who come to life as described in Rev.20:4-6 are specifically the great tribulation saints. Notice that at this resurrection, there is no mention of the living in Christ being changed and caught up, but only those who will have been beheaded during the time of the beasts reign. In opposition, the resurrection of the church, as described in 1 Thes.4:13-18, will have taken place prior to the first seal being opened, which begins God's wrath.
Jesus was not caught up to heaven. The scripture states that the dragon (Satan) is waiting for the woman to give birth. She gives birth and is caught up to God and to his throne before the dragon can devour(kill) the child. And because the dragon couldn't get the child, he then goes after the woman who gave birth him. Jesus does not fit the criteria of the male child and that because he did not escape being devoured, but was crucified and then later laid down his life freely, where after his resurrection, he then ascended to the right hand of the Father. As previously stated, the male child is a collective name for the 144,00 who Israel gives birth to and who are all males (Rev.14:4), ergo, male child. Also, regarding "that already happened" Jesus states that the information contained in Revelation is to show the things that must soon take place and therefore, this would also demonstrate that the male child could not be referring to Jesus.
I hope that this helps clear things up
Blessings in Christ
If the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments were speaking of the same events, that there are three sets of seven events would make no sense. Revelation is a chronological order of judgments of wrath.
7th Trumpet:
After the 4th trumpet, we have an eagle announcing woe! woe! woe! Each woe is representing its respective Trumpet that is, 5th Trumpet = 1st woe, 6th Trumpet = 2nd woe, 7th Trump = 3rd woe. There are clues in the context that demonstrate that the seals, trumpets and bowls are sequential. The first clues is that each set is numbered 1 thru 7. Much of the time after John finishes with a plague he then says, "after this." Here is an example: After the 6th seal has taken place, there is a pause in the action in that, John sees four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, which would demonstrate that the harm that they will inflict is not restricted to just Israel, but to the entire earth. These four angels will be given authority to harm the earth, the sea and the trees. After the sealing of the 144,000, which are the first fruits out of Israel and the introduction of the great tribulation saints (GTS), the 7th seal is opened. Following that, we immediately see the beginning results of the harm that those four angels are give power to inflict, because at the sounding of the 1st trumpet a third of the earth and a third of the trees will be burned up. This would demonstrate chronology.
1). Four angels are given power to harm the earth, sea and trees after the sealing of the 144,000
2). Sealing of the 144,000
3). A vision of the great tribulation saints, who are not the church
4). 7th seal (half hour of silence, incense and prayers, angels are given their trumpets)
5). 1st trumpet - Four angels begin their harm: a third of the earth and trees are burned up (see #1)
If you look at #1, the angels are given power to harm the earth, the sea and the trees, then when the 1st trumpet is blown, we see the results of their harm, which would demonstrate a chronological order. Here is another example:
Trumpets 5, 6 and 7 are each referred to as woes.
5th Trumpet/1st woe:
"The first woe has passed; behold, two woes are still to come."
6th Trumpet/2nd woe:
"The second woe has passed; behold, the third woe is soon to come."
As you can see from above, after the 5th trumpet the announcement is made that the 1st woe has passed and two more are to follow. Then, after the 6th trumpet, the announcement is made that the second woe has passed and that the third woe is coming soon. The words "has passed" and "still to come" demonstrates that trumpets 5, 6 and seven are in sequential order. Here is another example:
"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues--last, because with them God's wrath is completed.
In the verse above, the bowl judgments are treated as a unit and are the seven last plagues and "with them" God's wrath is completed. Since the bowl judgments are the "last" plagues of wrath, then there would necessarily have to be wrath that was first or before them, which would be the seals and the trumpets judgments.
The 7th trumpet is the 3rd woe, which is where Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven to the earth (woe to the inhabitants of the earth), which takes place in the middle of that last seven years and where they will be restricted to until the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. Chapter 11 contains information regarding the two witnesses who will prophecy in Jerusalem during the first 3 1/2 year period and will be killed by the beast, that angel, who comes up out of the Abyss at the sounding of the 5th trumpet (Rev.9:11).
Rev.20:1-3 is where Satan is thrown into the Abyss, which will have been opened back at the 5th trumpet. After he is thrown in, he will remain there until the end of the thousand years where he will be let out again for one last rebellion, where afterwards, he will be thrown into the lake of fire (Rev.20:10) Below is the chronological order of events:
* Jesus returns to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom after the 7th bowl has been poured out.
* The beast and false prophet are thrown alive into the lake of fire
* Satan is seized and thrown into the Abyss during Christ's thousand year reign
* Thousand year reign of Christ
* When the thousand years are over, Satan is released and causes the last rebellion
* Satan is thrown into the lake of fire
* The great white throne judgment takes place of the unrighteous dead
* New heaven, New earth, New Jerusalem: Eternity ..........................................
The Woman of Revelation 12:
* Clothed with the sun: Sun = Jacob
* Moon under her feet = Jacobs wife(s)
* Wearing a crown of twelve stars = twelve tribes of Israel
The woman as a whole = the nation Israel (See Gen.37:9-10)
The Great Multitude which no man could count:
* there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language.
The group above is made up of Gentiles and is not Israel. These are the great tribulation saints which are a separate Gentile group, where the 144,000 are those who come out of the twelve tribes of literal Israel. The mention of 144,000 and then the mention of a number that no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language, is demonstrating that God is being literal with these descriptions, i.e. a literal 144,000 and a great number of Gentile saints too numerous to count, they being two distinct groups.
The 144,000:
The first fruits to God out of literal Israel (gives birth to). The male child is not referring to Jesus, but is a collective name for the 144,000 who will be caught up to God's throne at during the middle of the seven years. This group is not resurrected, but according to the scripture, it appears that they, like the living church, will be changed and caught up.
Those who come to life as described in Rev.20:4-6 are specifically the great tribulation saints. Notice that at this resurrection, there is no mention of the living in Christ being changed and caught up, but only those who will have been beheaded during the time of the beasts reign. In opposition, the resurrection of the church, as described in 1 Thes.4:13-18, will have taken place prior to the first seal being opened, which begins God's wrath.
Jesus was not caught up to heaven. The scripture states that the dragon (Satan) is waiting for the woman to give birth. She gives birth and is caught up to God and to his throne before the dragon can devour(kill) the child. And because the dragon couldn't get the child, he then goes after the woman who gave birth him. Jesus does not fit the criteria of the male child and that because he did not escape being devoured, but was crucified and then later laid down his life freely, where after his resurrection, he then ascended to the right hand of the Father. As previously stated, the male child is a collective name for the 144,00 who Israel gives birth to and who are all males (Rev.14:4), ergo, male child. Also, regarding "that already happened" Jesus states that the information contained in Revelation is to show the things that must soon take place and therefore, this would also demonstrate that the male child could not be referring to Jesus.
I hope that this helps clear things up
Blessings in Christ
T
Acts 1:9-11
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Almost all of the book of Revelation is forshadowed in the Old Testament. So is Johns Gospel and parts of his letters.
The same applies to the other Gospels. Christ is portrayed in them as the new Joseph, Moses and Elijah. Without bearing this in mind the key to understanding the Bible is missing. The New Testament could be described as a commentary and completion of the Old. When the NT was written the Old Testament was the Bible. It was by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit where the writers were guided to write the Gospels and the rest of the New Testament.
The same applies to the other Gospels. Christ is portrayed in them as the new Joseph, Moses and Elijah. Without bearing this in mind the key to understanding the Bible is missing. The New Testament could be described as a commentary and completion of the Old. When the NT was written the Old Testament was the Bible. It was by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit where the writers were guided to write the Gospels and the rest of the New Testament.
Last edited:
It sounds like you really love Jesus, this encourages me.
You might notice that I didn't say that the 7 seals were the same event as the trumpets, vials, and the fire from heaven.
They are part of the story of the little book which includes the trumpets. Please allow me briefly to state the understanding as I see it.
The 7 seals begin when Israel (natural branches) reject the gospel.The seals end when Jerusalem is destroyed (6th seal) by the Romans in 70 ad. Please compare Rev 6:16 with Lk 23:26-31,30. The 7th seal being broken shows that the requirements (prophecies) to open the "little book" had been met, See Dan 12:4.
The 1/2 hour of silence from heaven is the space between 70 ad and the writing of the Revelation (96 ad). The destruction of Jerusalem had been fortold by Jesus (Matt 24, Lk 21,etc.), but the big question was, how long would the "Times of the Gentiles" last (Lk 21:24)?
The trumpets are from 70 ad to the appearance of Jesus and the end of this world (7th trumpet, last).
The seals are broken, but what does the "little book" say (Dan 12 4)?
The book is the story of the two witnesses. It is not shown until after the 6th trumpet has blown. The reason is that it's meaning will not be fully understood until after the 6th trumpet has blown.
The bitter news is that Israel,the people Jesus loves, are going to be......suffer the the ....the two witnesses are Israel now, restored to Jerusalem. The 7th trumpet (last) will blow after they lie in the streets for 3 1/2 days, just as it says.
Just as Cain killed righteous Able, so these evil men without love will kill Israel.
Ok, Just a bit of explanation there.
Back to the tribulation.
The tribulation is related to the time, times, and 1/2 times (3 1/2 t's), first mentioned in Daniel 7:25.
Many agree that this is a picture of the Antichrist, the leader of the 4th beast.
It says "the saints" (Israel) will be "given into his hand" for 3 1/2 t's (Rome,beast, times of the Gentiles).
The next reference to the 3 1/2 t's is in Daniel Ch 12 :7.
The man in linen swears by God that it will be t,ts,1/2t when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things will be finished.
What does it mean to "scatter the power of the holy people"?
First, the holy people are Israel.
Next, in order for the power to be scattered it first must be consolidated.
At the time this was written Israel was captive in Babylon. They were looking for the day that they would return to Jerusalem. When they returned they began rebuilding the temple and city. As time went by their (relationship with God, spiritual) power increased. This continued until they rejected Jesus and suffered the consequences.
So the first t,ts,1/2t was from Daniel ch 12 until the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad.
The next t,ts,1/2t is from 70 ad until the end of the times of the Gentiles.
When you put these together they give you the time that Israel is not a self ruling nation in control of the holy city.
The time known as the great tribulation is the second half of this time period, 70 ad till 1967.
In Rev. the two witnesses and the woman (which bears the man child) are in the wilderness, away from home (Jerusalem) for the same time period (not literal 24 hour days and months). These both refer to the times of the gentiles, the second t,ts,1/2t.
You might notice that I didn't say that the 7 seals were the same event as the trumpets, vials, and the fire from heaven.
They are part of the story of the little book which includes the trumpets. Please allow me briefly to state the understanding as I see it.
The 7 seals begin when Israel (natural branches) reject the gospel.The seals end when Jerusalem is destroyed (6th seal) by the Romans in 70 ad. Please compare Rev 6:16 with Lk 23:26-31,30. The 7th seal being broken shows that the requirements (prophecies) to open the "little book" had been met, See Dan 12:4.
The 1/2 hour of silence from heaven is the space between 70 ad and the writing of the Revelation (96 ad). The destruction of Jerusalem had been fortold by Jesus (Matt 24, Lk 21,etc.), but the big question was, how long would the "Times of the Gentiles" last (Lk 21:24)?
The trumpets are from 70 ad to the appearance of Jesus and the end of this world (7th trumpet, last).
The seals are broken, but what does the "little book" say (Dan 12 4)?
The book is the story of the two witnesses. It is not shown until after the 6th trumpet has blown. The reason is that it's meaning will not be fully understood until after the 6th trumpet has blown.
The bitter news is that Israel,the people Jesus loves, are going to be......suffer the the ....the two witnesses are Israel now, restored to Jerusalem. The 7th trumpet (last) will blow after they lie in the streets for 3 1/2 days, just as it says.
Just as Cain killed righteous Able, so these evil men without love will kill Israel.
Ok, Just a bit of explanation there.
Back to the tribulation.
The tribulation is related to the time, times, and 1/2 times (3 1/2 t's), first mentioned in Daniel 7:25.
Many agree that this is a picture of the Antichrist, the leader of the 4th beast.
It says "the saints" (Israel) will be "given into his hand" for 3 1/2 t's (Rome,beast, times of the Gentiles).
The next reference to the 3 1/2 t's is in Daniel Ch 12 :7.
The man in linen swears by God that it will be t,ts,1/2t when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things will be finished.
What does it mean to "scatter the power of the holy people"?
First, the holy people are Israel.
Next, in order for the power to be scattered it first must be consolidated.
At the time this was written Israel was captive in Babylon. They were looking for the day that they would return to Jerusalem. When they returned they began rebuilding the temple and city. As time went by their (relationship with God, spiritual) power increased. This continued until they rejected Jesus and suffered the consequences.
So the first t,ts,1/2t was from Daniel ch 12 until the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad.
The next t,ts,1/2t is from 70 ad until the end of the times of the Gentiles.
When you put these together they give you the time that Israel is not a self ruling nation in control of the holy city.
The time known as the great tribulation is the second half of this time period, 70 ad till 1967.
In Rev. the two witnesses and the woman (which bears the man child) are in the wilderness, away from home (Jerusalem) for the same time period (not literal 24 hour days and months). These both refer to the times of the gentiles, the second t,ts,1/2t.
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
This sums it up,that the saints will not be gathered unto Christ until there is a falling away first,which is when they will not endure the truth of the Bible,but want to hear it according to their own lusts(2 Timothy 4:2-4),which is the new age movement(1 Timothy 4:1-5),and the man of sin steps in to the Jews temple claiming to be God,which happens in the middle of the 7 years period.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
But then God allows the man of sin,and those that follow him,to war against the saints,and prevail against them.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
As far as 2 resurrections of the saints,there is only one resurrection of the saints,before the millennial reign of Christ,and one resurrection of the dead after the millennial reign of Christ.
When the resurrection happens which will happen after the world takes the mark,and fights against the saints,nobody has a chance at salvation for they took the mark,and there is no repentance available after they took the mark,and the Gentiles will not be offered salvation anymore,and God will work with Israel,and save them at the battle of Armageddon,when the world attack them.
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
This sums it up,that the saints will not be gathered unto Christ until there is a falling away first,which is when they will not endure the truth of the Bible,but want to hear it according to their own lusts(2 Timothy 4:2-4),which is the new age movement(1 Timothy 4:1-5),and the man of sin steps in to the Jews temple claiming to be God,which happens in the middle of the 7 years period.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
But then God allows the man of sin,and those that follow him,to war against the saints,and prevail against them.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
As far as 2 resurrections of the saints,there is only one resurrection of the saints,before the millennial reign of Christ,and one resurrection of the dead after the millennial reign of Christ.
When the resurrection happens which will happen after the world takes the mark,and fights against the saints,nobody has a chance at salvation for they took the mark,and there is no repentance available after they took the mark,and the Gentiles will not be offered salvation anymore,and God will work with Israel,and save them at the battle of Armageddon,when the world attack them.
Last edited:
A little bit insulted that Amillennialism wasn't mentioned in the title! It is a major doctrine in Christianity, including whole sections of the church. But no, not popular, because it doesn't prophesy the return of Jesus Christ with every head line.
No rapture, tribulation long over for Israel, and Jesus returning once.
Yes, the Second Coming is only once! Not in secret, not 2 or 3 times.
Read the Bible - it is all there!
No rapture, tribulation long over for Israel, and Jesus returning once.
Yes, the Second Coming is only once! Not in secret, not 2 or 3 times.
Read the Bible - it is all there!