Revelation, Bible symbolism

[abcdef]

this understanding of the symbols used in the Bible must remain consistent throughout the whole book. I want to see if I can help you understand better, time is shorter than you realize to His appearing. Even if you don"t agree, that's ok.

First take a piece of paper and draw a picture of:
The sun, represents the Law of Moses = The understanding of God, His will and spiritual reality- Ps 84:11, Rev 6:12, Rev 16:18.
The moon, represents the prophets = The prophets
The stars= those who bring light in times of darkness,those who are closest to God, teachers,prophets,martyrs-Gen 22:17,Dan 12:4,Rev 6:13, Rev 8:12.
An ocean= represents the sea of men, non-believing gentile nations, pagans, the deep darkness -Isa 57:20, Isa 17:12-13,Lk 21:25,Rev 17:15,Rev 20:13,Rev 21:1
Seashore= where people begin to have some kind of knowledge of a God, out of darkness into light (understanding),
Land, earth = where souls begin to live in God's light, knowledge of good and evil, usually used to describe Israel but can show false religion (earth beast)
A large mountain=Jerusalem-Dan 9:16,Joel 3:17,Heb 12:22
Fountains with rivers flowing to the sea=God is the source of the flow of blessings which sustains all creation, the fountain of living waters- Jer 2:13, Jer 17:13, Rev 8:10, Rev 16:4
Grass= Israel-Isa 40:7, Rev 8:7, Rev 9:4
Trees= Israel-Hos 9:10,Hos 14:6
Clouds= storms holding power, (lightning,judgement), overwhelming forces, armies-Isa 19:1, Isa 25:4, Jer 4:13 ("behold He shall come as clouds"),
The wind= the spirits, Holy Spirit but also winds of destruction- Rev 7 1-3, Rev 9 14-15
Islands=Israelites living in settlements among pagans away from Jerusalem
Ships=Israelites going between settlements of Jews

Look at your picture, see how things are reaching up to heaven to be closer to God. This is a picture of the symbolic place where Israel lives.

In Rev 14:7 it talks about God creating the heavens,earth,sea and fountains of waters,These are the divisions of the creation. In the story of the first 4 trumpets and vials God's blessing is withdrawn from these areas of creation. The number is 4, that would mean it covers the whole created world.

When we read in the Bible about the whole world, it's not talking about the plant earth, but just the world of the Israelites. Acts 2:5 it says that on the day of Pentecost there were Jews from every nation "under heaven", does this mean from South America, North America, or Australia?
It means every nation where Jews were living (under God's protection). Where people get mixed up is thinking that the world in prophecy means the planet instead of the world of Israel or of the "human soul".

Please keep in mind that the writings are thousands of years old with numerous translations both good and bad.

Let me give you a small example. The Day of the Lord.
There are several Days of the Lord, against Egypt Jer 46:10&2
Egypt, Ethiopia, Libya, Lydia, Chub, Ez 30:1-5
Edom (Idumea), Isa 34:1-10,8
Babylon, Isa 34:1-10,8
Jerusalem Joel 2 1-11, Mal 4:5-6, Lk 17:22-37,30,

Notice the symbolic language used, sun and moon darkened, stars fall, destruction, clouds thick darkness, desolation. These prophecies are already fulfilled but not literally. The stars did not fall, they still shine.

The symbols in Rev work the same way.

Try Rev 8:7-12, the first 4 trumpets- These show the de

 

[abcdef]

I'm sorry, my intro and last statements were lost somehow. But I guess you'll get the general idea.

 

[Willie-T]

I'm afraid Joseph's dream kind of blows the whole beginning of your little explanation right out of the water.

Then, just as one more right off the top of my head, we are going to have the faith to move Jerusalem? (mountain)

 

[Angela53510]

This OP is WAY too esoteric for me! I agree there are symbols in Revelation, but the fact is you are reading back your solutions into a text that was never meant to have them.

That's not to say there are not symbols, but this turns the whole Bible into a FB game where uncovering symbols is more important the the narratives, the prophecies and what it meant to the people it was written to!

 

[Willie-T]

This OP is WAY too esoteric for me! I agree there are symbols in Revelation, but the fact is you are reading back your solutions into a text that was never meant to have them.

That's not to say there are not symbols, but this turns the whole Bible into a FB game where uncovering symbols is more important the the narratives, the prophecies and what it meant to the people it was written to!

So true. The big type font is something that so many people just cannot seem to understand.

 

[abcdef]

The understanding of these things comes from studying the O.T..Take your concordance and look up the history of these words and symbols, how they were used then, they have the same meaning now as they did then. I did give scripture to support what I have said, did you look it up and see?
The study of symbols is meant to enhance the understanding of the readers, original or present.
It is true it can be confusing but it is worth investigating to find the truth.
These symbols are old. I have studied many old books which helped.
Just as with the creation story if you try to blend modern science viewpoints into the ancient ones it won't work.
I have to laugh about the comparison to a fb game, isn't it that already? Kick the ball, let it fly, you don't know how the ball will go. It's great to learn and be taught new ideas.

 

[tanakh]

this understanding of the symbols used in the Bible must remain consistent throughout the whole book. I want to see if I can help you understand better, time is shorter than you realize to His appearing. Even if you don"t agree, that's ok.

First take a piece of paper and draw a picture of:
The sun, represents the Law of Moses = The understanding of God, His will and spiritual reality- Ps 84:11, Rev 6:12, Rev 16:18.
The moon, represents the prophets = The prophets
The stars= those who bring light in times of darkness,those who are closest to God, teachers,prophets,martyrs-Gen 22:17,Dan 12:4,Rev 6:13, Rev 8:12.
An ocean= represents the sea of men, non-believing gentile nations, pagans, the deep darkness -Isa 57:20, Isa 17:12-13,Lk 21:25,Rev 17:15,Rev 20:13,Rev 21:1
Seashore= where people begin to have some kind of knowledge of a God, out of darkness into light (understanding),
Land, earth = where souls begin to live in God's light, knowledge of good and evil, usually used to describe Israel but can show false religion (earth beast)
A large mountain=Jerusalem-Dan 9:16,Joel 3:17,Heb 12:22
Fountains with rivers flowing to the sea=God is the source of the flow of blessings which sustains all creation, the fountain of living waters- Jer 2:13, Jer 17:13, Rev 8:10, Rev 16:4
Grass= Israel-Isa 40:7, Rev 8:7, Rev 9:4
Trees= Israel-Hos 9:10,Hos 14:6
Clouds= storms holding power, (lightning,judgement), overwhelming forces, armies-Isa 19:1, Isa 25:4, Jer 4:13 ("behold He shall come as clouds"),
The wind= the spirits, Holy Spirit but also winds of destruction- Rev 7 1-3, Rev 9 14-15
Islands=Israelites living in settlements among pagans away from Jerusalem
Ships=Israelites going between settlements of Jews

Look at your picture, see how things are reaching up to heaven to be closer to God. This is a picture of the symbolic place where Israel lives.

In Rev 14:7 it talks about God creating the heavens,earth,sea and fountains of waters,These are the divisions of the creation. In the story of the first 4 trumpets and vials God's blessing is withdrawn from these areas of creation. The number is 4, that would mean it covers the whole created world.

When we read in the Bible about the whole world, it's not talking about the plant earth, but just the world of the Israelites. Acts 2:5 it says that on the day of Pentecost there were Jews from every nation "under heaven", does this mean from South America, North America, or Australia?
It means every nation where Jews were living (under God's protection). Where people get mixed up is thinking that the world in prophecy means the planet instead of the world of Israel or of the "human soul".

Please keep in mind that the writings are thousands of years old with numerous translations both good and bad.

Let me give you a small example. The Day of the Lord.
There are several Days of the Lord, against Egypt Jer 46:10&2
Egypt, Ethiopia, Libya, Lydia, Chub, Ez 30:1-5
Edom (Idumea), Isa 34:1-10,8
Babylon, Isa 34:1-10,8
Jerusalem Joel 2 1-11, Mal 4:5-6, Lk 17:22-37,30,

Notice the symbolic language used, sun and moon darkened, stars fall, destruction, clouds thick darkness, desolation. These prophecies are already fulfilled but not literally. The stars did not fall, they still shine.

The symbols in Rev work the same way.

Try Rev 8:7-12, the first 4 trumpets- These show the de

Most of the book of Revelation can be understood by having a good knowledge of the Old Testament because that is where much of the symbolism comes from. For example the stories of Joseph and the Exodus are featured prominently. The same applies to the Gospels. The Jewish method of interpretation known as Midrashim is used throughout the New Testament It consists of using four levels of interpretation, the literal text being the first level. The main object is to discover the meanings of text, which often go beyond the literal level.

 

[abcdef]

I'm not sure what you mean about Joseph's dream.
1 Cor 13:2 Faith to move mountains, Jerusalem? Yes. We must!
Faith to show to Israel that Jesus was the Messiah!
The people of Israel are the mountain, Heb 12:22, Do we have enough confidence and knowledge in what we teach to persuade them? I think you'll have to speak in the ancient (O.T.)ways of understanding to talk to them.

 

[Ugly]

Anytime. New member joins and immediately wants to enlighten us with a truth only he knows, I stop reading.

 

[Chuckt]

this understanding of the symbols used in the Bible must remain consistent throughout the whole book. I want to see if I can help you understand better, time is shorter than you realize to His appearing. Even if you don"t agree, that's ok.

So basically you need to learn the terms "expositional constancy" which is what you are trying to teach us.
Not every Christian believes in expositional constancy and shockingly some of the scholars at Bible.org don't believe in expositional constancy.

 

[posthuman]

I'm not sure what you mean about Joseph's dream.
1 Cor 13:2 Faith to move mountains, Jerusalem? Yes. We must!
Faith to show to Israel that Jesus was the Messiah!
The people of Israel are the mountain, Heb 12:22, Do we have enough confidence and knowledge in what we teach to persuade them? I think you'll have to speak in the ancient (O.T.)ways of understanding to talk to them.

Joseph dreamed about the sun moon & stars bowing to him. (Genesis 37:9)
scripture interprets this: his mother, father and brothers bowing before him, as it was fulfilled in Egypt. (Genesis 42)

i think Willie was pointing out that we can't assume a symbol in the Bible is a reference to the same thing in every single case, for example here the sun moon & stars are definitely not Moses' law, the prophets, and 'those who bring light in darkest times' like you propose. (?)

 

[abcdef]

This stuff has been around for a long time. It's not just "my" stuff.
There are lots of people who write commentaries and books on these subjects, maybe you agree or don't, can't we learn from each other?
I'm not afraid to read or hear what people have to say, I welcome it! I learn from everyone!
Maybe something I never heard before to think about, that is the key, thinking about it.
Please try not to put me in a box or category, before you even know me.

 

[Chuckt]

This stuff has been around for a long time. It's not just "my" stuff.
There are lots of people who write commentaries and books on these subjects, maybe you agree or don't, can't we learn from each other?
I'm not afraid to read or hear what people have to say, I welcome it! I learn from everyone!
Maybe something I never heard before to think about, that is the key, thinking about it.
Please try not to put me in a box or category, before you even know me.

If I started making a lot of quotes from the Bible Knowledge Commentary, I'm sure there would be a lot of people turning up their nose at me. Why do you expect it to be any different with you?

 

[abcdef]

I'm sorry, but I've never heard of that book.
I want to try something, ask me a question about Rev. something you know that is not in that book.
Like what did the seven thunders say? or What is the fire from heaven in ch 20? or What does in mean when it says heaven and earth fly away?

 

[Ahwatukee]

this understanding of the symbols used in the Bible must remain consistent throughout the whole book. I want to see if I can help you understand better, time is shorter than you realize to His appearing. Even if you don"t agree, that's ok.

First take a piece of paper and draw a picture of:
The sun, represents the Law of Moses = The understanding of God, His will and spiritual reality- Ps 84:11, Rev 6:12, Rev 16:18.
The moon, represents the prophets = The prophets
The stars= those who bring light in times of darkness,those who are closest to God, teachers,prophets,martyrs-Gen 22:17,Dan 12:4,Rev 6:13, Rev 8:12.
An ocean= represents the sea of men, non-believing gentile nations, pagans, the deep darkness -Isa 57:20, Isa 17:12-13,Lk 21:25,Rev 17:15,Rev 20:13,Rev 21:1
Seashore= where people begin to have some kind of knowledge of a God, out of darkness into light (understanding),
Land, earth = where souls begin to live in God's light, knowledge of good and evil, usually used to describe Israel but can show false religion (earth beast)
A large mountain=Jerusalem-Dan 9:16,Joel 3:17,Heb 12:22
Fountains with rivers flowing to the sea=God is the source of the flow of blessings which sustains all creation, the fountain of living waters- Jer 2:13, Jer 17:13, Rev 8:10, Rev 16:4
Grass= Israel-Isa 40:7, Rev 8:7, Rev 9:4
Trees= Israel-Hos 9:10,Hos 14:6
Clouds= storms holding power, (lightning,judgement), overwhelming forces, armies-Isa 19:1, Isa 25:4, Jer 4:13 ("behold He shall come as clouds"),
The wind= the spirits, Holy Spirit but also winds of destruction- Rev 7 1-3, Rev 9 14-15
Islands=Israelites living in settlements among pagans away from Jerusalem
Ships=Israelites going between settlements of Jews

Look at your picture, see how things are reaching up to heaven to be closer to God. This is a picture of the symbolic place where Israel lives.

In Rev 14:7 it talks about God creating the heavens, earth, sea and fountains of waters, these are the divisions of the creation. In the story of the first 4 trumpets and vials God's blessing is withdrawn from these areas of creation. The number is 4, that would mean it covers the whole created world.

When we read in the Bible about the whole world, it's not talking about the plant earth, but just the world of the Israelites. Acts 2:5 it says that on the day of Pentecost there were Jews from every nation "under heaven", does this mean from South America, North America, or Australia? It means every nation where Jews were living (under God's protection). Where people get mixed up is thinking that the world in prophecy means the planet instead of the world of Israel or of the "human soul".

Please keep in mind that the writings are thousands of years old with numerous translations both good and bad.

Let me give you a small example. The Day of the Lord.
There are several Days of the Lord, against Egypt Jer 46:10&2
Egypt, Ethiopia, Libya, Lydia, Chub, Ez 30:1-5
Edom (Idumea), Isa 34:1-10,8
Babylon, Isa 34:1-10,8
Jerusalem Joel 2 1-11, Mal 4:5-6, Lk 17:22-37,30,

Notice the symbolic language used, sun and moon darkened, stars fall, destruction, clouds thick darkness, desolation. These prophecies are already fulfilled but not literally. The stars did not fall, they still shine.

The symbols in Rev work the same way.

Try Rev 8:7-12, the first 4 trumpets- These show the de

Hello abcdef,

The proper way to read the book of Revelation is in the literal sense until you come across obvious symbolism, i.e. if the literal sense makes good sense, then don't seek any other sense. By symbolizing everything, you distort the true meaning of God's word. All of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are literal events of wrath that are going to take place in the future.

The sun, represents the Law of Moses = The understanding of God, His will and spiritual reality- Ps 84:11, Rev 6:12, Rev 16:18. The moon, represents the prophets = The prophets The stars= those who bring light in times of darkness,those who are closest to God, teachers,prophets,martyrs-Gen 22:17,Dan 12:4,Rev 6:13, Rev 8:12. An ocean= represents the sea of men, non-believing gentile nations, pagans, the deep darkness.

"A woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars"

"Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun, moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.” When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?” (Gen.37:9-10)

Regarding the woman of Rev.12, God has given us the exact meaning of the symbolism of the sun, moon and stars from Joseph's dream:

Sun = Jacob

Moon = Wife(s)

Stars = Eleven tribes of Israel and Joseph makes twelve

Therefore, the woman as a whole represents the nation Israel. The unbelieving nation of Israel is the one who gives birth to the Male child which is a collective name for the 144,000. These are the first fruits to God who come out of Israel (gives birth to) who will recognize Jesus as their Messiah and who will be caught up to God's throne in the middle of the seven years.

The word "stars" in Revelation are symbolic representing several different things.

Stars as Messengers/Angels
“The mystery of the seven [stars] that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lamp stands it this: The seven [stars] are the angels of the seven churches and seven lamp stands are the seven churches.” (Rev.1:20)

Star representing an unknown object:“The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great [star], blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water--the name of the [star] is Wormwood. A third of the waters turn bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter.” (Rev.8:10-11)


Stars representing literal Stars
“The forth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the [stars], so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night.” (Rev.8:12)
Star symbolically representing an angel
The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a [star] that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The [star] was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. When [he] opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace.” (Rev.9:1-2)

Stars representing the Twelve Tribes of Israel
“A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve [stars] on her head.” (Rev.12:1, Gen.37:9-10)


Stars representing fallen angels
“Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. His tail swept a third of the [stars] out of the sky and flung them to the earth.” (Rev.12:3-4)
It is said that the dragon’s tale sweeps a third of the [stars] out of the sky and Flings them to the earth. In Rev.12:9, the dragon is identified as Satan and the [stars] as his angels.

“And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and [his angels] fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great [dragon] was hurled down -- that ancient serpent called [the devil], or [Satan], who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and [his angels] with him.”

As you can see, the word "stars" is not always symbolic having the same literal meaning behind it, but the meaning can be understood by observing the context.




























Stars representing Meteorites/Asteroids
“I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the [stars] in the sky fell to the earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.” (Rev.6:12-13)

 

[abcdef]

Ahwatukee, Thank you for loving God's word.

I'm new to the computer stuff so please have patience with me.

I totally agree with you. The symbols are varied in there interpretation. But there is some consistency in the symbolism also, don't you think? Light and dark, heaven above - hell below. Often we are told by God what they mean so we can know for sure what they are (Joseph's dream). God tells us the meaning there, so if God shows Israel as sheaves again (Jesus, John 4:35) isn't it somewhat consistent?

I like the examples you give of the different ways to understand the symbols of the stars. Aren't you and I really saying the same thing? Some of the examples (12 stars over the woman, Dragon dragging the stars) you say are symbols and and interpret, although it isn't said what they are. (The debate has raged on for centuries).

Please allow me to ask you about what you understand about the 6th seal.
You say that the stars falling are meteorites/asteroids, but if it says stars doesn't that mean litrral stars?
In Rev 6:12-17, v14, It says Heaven departed as a scroll, Does that mean the universe will disappear at that point in time?
Does Lk 23:28-30, v30, apply here?
Could the 6th seal be showing the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad?
When John wrote you did say he showed future and past.

I know some will read this and say what's the point of it all? For me, it is telling people of His coming.
Looking for the day of His appearing. Trying to get as many people in the "Ark" as possible. Every soul is a treasure, every heart a resting place for the Holy Spirit. The only way is to find the truth, Jesus said that we will know it.

Heaven is waiting for us, Jesus will soon be here! He is at the door!

I must tell you that for me the scroll is also bitter. After realizing where we were in the prophecy timeline my heart was broken. Israel now is the two prophets, returned from outside the city. Jesus said that we search script. (O.T.) they bear witness of Him. They do now in Jerusalem. The kings of the East (Iran and it's allies) will soon attack, Jerusalem will fall.
Wouldn't you try to tell someone? Wouldn't you try to reason with those who love God's word?

 

[RickyZ]

This OP is WAY too esoteric for me! I agree there are symbols in Revelation, but the fact is you are reading back your solutions into a text that was never meant to have them.

That's not to say there are not symbols, but this turns the whole Bible into a FB game where uncovering symbols is more important the the narratives, the prophecies and what it meant to the people it was written to!

So true. The big type font is something that so many people just cannot seem to understand.

The Bible was written to a specific group - specifically, THE GROUP OF ALL OF US. God never said anything to the Hebrews that He didn't intend for me to hear as well.

 

[posthuman]

The Bible was written to a specific group - specifically, THE GROUP OF ALL OF US. God never said anything to the Hebrews that He didn't intend for me to hear as well.

hearing it isn't the same as appropriating it to myself though -- like, He gave specific land to specific tribes, and promised that they would inhabit it. that doesn't mean a couple acres of the the Levant belong to you & me
it means to me, that He has also promised me an inheritance in Christ and a place that He has gone to prepare for me, and as sure as He will keep His promise to the nation Israel, He will keep those promises to us grafted-in types.

i mean, obviously, when he told Hagar that He would make her son the father of great nations, it doesn't mean my kid and your kid will be great nations, right? and when Jesus told the apostles they would sit on 12 thrones and judge Israel - are we all going to sit on 12 thrones to judge Israel?
so there are things written to specific audiences in the scripture just as there are things that apply to all of us that believe.

 

[RickyZ]

hearing it isn't the same as appropriating it to myself though -- like, He gave specific land to specific tribes, and promised that they would inhabit it. that doesn't mean a couple acres of the the Levant belong to you & me
it means to me, that He has also promised me an inheritance in Christ and a place that He has gone to prepare for me, and as sure as He will keep His promise to the nation Israel, He will keep those promises to us grafted-in types.

Exactly. What God said to the tribes applies to us. He promised them a land - just as He has promised a land to us (the new earth). God wants us to overhear what He says to others because He's saying the same thing to us. And it's also why, going back to the op, you can't pin a symbol to only one meaning. Again, God's word is eternal and echoes throughout history. The tribes heard it, I hear it, you hear it - it has different manifestations but it's all the same Word. Spoken to all of us.

i mean, obviously, when he told Hagar that He would make her son the father of great nations, it doesn't mean my kid and your kid will be great nations, right? and when Jesus told the apostles they would sit on 12 thrones and judge Israel - are we all going to sit on 12 thrones to judge Israel?
so there are things written to specific audiences in the scripture just as there are things that apply to all of us that believe.

What God told Hagar applies to us because we interact directly with those nations. God told Hagar nations would come from her, so that we could hear and know that these nations we deal with came from her. The Apostles judged Isreal, we will judge the millennial kingdom... Again, it has different manifestations but it's all the same Word.

As I've said before, get a Bible you don't mind losing and every time you read something in it you don't think applies directly to you, rip that page out. Then after a year go back and see just how much of it is missing.

 

[crossnote]

Exactly. What God said to the tribes applies to us. He promised them a land - just as He has promised a land to us (the new earth). God wants us to overhear what He says to others because He's saying the same thing to us. And it's also why, going back to the op, you can't pin a symbol to only one meaning. Again, God's word is eternal and echoes throughout history. The tribes heard it, I hear it, you hear it - it has different manifestations but it's all the same Word. Spoken to all of us.




What God told Hagar applies to us because we interact directly with those nations. God told Hagar nations would come from her, so that we could hear and know that these nations we deal with came from her. The Apostles judged Isreal, we will judge the millennial kingdom... Again, it has different manifestations but it's all the same Word.

As I've said before, get a Bible you don't mind losing and every time you read something in it you don't think applies directly to you, rip that page out. Then after a year go back and see just how much of it is missing.

So the 600+ commandments given to Israel also is for us along with the curses of disobedience?

Revelation from Chap 4 on is definitely written in Jewish OT imagery. Previous knowledge of the OT is a definite plus.
This OT imagery (IMHO) is a dead give away that the Church will be gone and God is once again dealing directly with Israel, via chastisements in a similar manner as He did in the OT...to bring about repentance of His people the Jews.