Smart People! Help!..Fall of Man?

BrainEatBible · Mar 25, 2010

Hello, this is my first post. I am starting in the book of Genesis because I am reading the bible over again. This is a long thread, so read the first paragraph if u just want to answer one question. You may need to read Genesis over again to understand. I'm using the New International Version. OK here we go. I will put numbers after every question, so just put the number before your answer.

Most things can be answered by saying that God can do anything.(must for Chapter 1) I agree. I am only confused about some of the statements and roles of the characters. Anything that speaks makes a false statement it seems. First God commanded man " You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." OK then God makes the first women (Eve) -hopefully she was informed-....In the next part it says that "the serpent was more crafty than any of the other wild animals". I always assumed that meant deceptive/ sly or does it mean resourceful/smart? The snake asks Eve " Did God really say, You must not eat from any tree in the garden?" she says that " We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden but God did say, you must not eat fruit from the tree in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die." - It seems she added the part about touching the fruit...The snake responds " You will not surely die for God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." then Eve ate it and Adam ate the fruit...[they die and thats the end.jk]....NO. What immediately happens is their eyes are opened and they realize they are naked. So far what the snake said would happen, did happen and what God said didn't happen, please tell me why?- #1 is that possible? #2

Maybe Satan rearranged the bible or something because it makes no sense because its like the bible is saying that God is worse than the snake? and that he lies?

Is being all powerful and good mean you have the power to be bad also?#3 or else your not really all powerful. Example: Christ is perfect, he would not be perfect maybe if he could not do something like become a man/imperfect..right..the only problem is that the ability to make yourself imperfect may be an imperfection/flaw sooo is true perfection possible without being 2 things that negate each other? #4 Christ went back to perfect body so that means its possible to go to perfection if u have the spirit of God/ are god? like if u wear a blue shirt then that shirt is blue, if you take off the shirt the shirt is still a blue shirt.but separate from you. But i don't know if i like the idea that god can choose to do right or wrong but it makes sense for all the stuff that happens in the Bible.

God curses the snake to crawl on his belly and eat dust all the days of its life... so then I'm assuming it wasn't a real snake before the curse. maybe it was a human or Satan which explains the whole talking thing. but the Bible did say that "the serpent was more crafty than any other animal" so it was an animal. and more importantly, tell me what exactly did he do that was wrong?#5 how could the serpent do something wrong if serpents weren't commanded to do, or not do anything? #6

The next part in chapter three is the curses, which are sometimes confusing in who God is targeting because he says "you' and "his" and "her" maybe he was pointing at each one when he said it. Along time ago i thought it was odd that God even uses curses at all, seems like something a witch or Satan could do...just saying. I also thought about the meaning of "you will surely die" maybe he meant he would have to kill them. then he chose not to kill them out of love. that would also explain another reason why they hid from God. but again the serpents response to Eve tells an instant direct effect of taking the fruit.

Toward the end of chapter 3 God says, "The man has now become one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

- i don't know what god means by "one of us"...maybe God was a race of beings?#7

How come becoming like God, in terms of knowing good and evil, was a bad thing? had we listened to god we would be less like him?#8 I know there are things from god we would not be ready for but he could balance it out with things that make us ready for it instead of being incomplete....Is man evil, with only the image, spirit, and knowledge of god but not immortality?

I was told that the tree of life represents Jesus Christ. If so then in theory, eating of that tree you would die. (Die in Christ). did someone reverse things?#9 it would make sense if they ate from that tree and a creature around that tree told the truth. It would make sense that they would feel naked, they would have their eyes opened. Christians fear god so it makes sense if they actually ate from the tree of life.Plus the curses God gave go along with reproduction and life which would be fitting for the crime.

Can i trust the last statement god made in chapter 3? I don't know.. it said "us" by the way..and said "they must not eat of the tree of life and live forever." so if the result is backward like the first statement then he is saying they will die sooo he is saying they must not die, so he's trying to protect them?#10 thats all the questions for the fall of man. i probably wont need anything else from genesis answered except the whole Cain thing
I noticed that Seth and Cains genealogy cross paths Chapter 4-5. Noah is Cains great (x5) grandson, in fact. Cains 3 last descendants listed are Noah's father, grandfather, and great grandfather (not counting Enoch because of Irad in chapter 4 but i should). so Caininites they survived the flood and we may all be part Caininite. And also the Genesis creation story when i read it over after reading about Noah's ark, It could have been right after a flood, think about it.Genesis starts with the earth being formless, deep water. Never did God say "let there be water" there was lots of water and land was underneath, so remember that..And then it takes only days for things to take hold/change and seperate....that sounds like a flood going away or finding land to colonize to me. Maybe all things repeat. Noah did curse his grandson Canaan too. Anyways well thats all for now. I'll have #11 for people that want to talk about the Cain thing and if the Bible creation thing could have been a repeat after a previous flood.
I hope you have good answers or if you have jokes then i hope they really are funny and not just sidetracking from the topic.
Thank you very much for reading this far...

phil36 · Mar 25, 2010

If you believe your statements then you are not a Christian? If you are a Christian then you are trying to show a knowledge that is useless. what I mean is if you are a Christian and write something like that, I would presume you are trying to show your knowledge to all. for you would know that the axiom behind your statements are severely flawed.

or else why would you have a title like ' Smart People Help......???'

In Love

Phil

BrainEatBible · Mar 25, 2010

phil36 said:

I am not trying to show anything other than a need for knowledge or answers. My questions are based on things that don't make sense. What might jesus say to my questions? You say the axiom of my statements are flawed but the questions are more important. and would be worse if i was completely new to the bible.

Never did i say i was right

lots of questions

you chose not to answer any...

phil36 · Mar 25, 2010

BrainEatBible said:

but are you are not new to the bible, and your profile says you are a Christian, since your early childhood. So I would take it you know the answers.
It was also your title of the thread '''Smart People"" thats all I was questioning.

do you really desire the real answers or just being smart?

Phil

BrainEatBible · Mar 25, 2010

Well i was raised christian as a child, things made sense but now that i'm an adult the bible has new meaning. I have to relearn but stay truthful to myself. All christians were once non christians,if i wasn't would you turn me away or would you try to correct me?

I chose "Smart People Help" as a title becuase i wanted smart people to help and maybe i am just dumb.

and also so that maybe people that know they aren't experts would not give simple answers that i already tried to apply.

phil36 · Mar 25, 2010

BrainEatBible said:

Well i was raised christian as a child, things made sense but now that i'm an adult the bible has new meaning. I have to relearn but stay truthful to myself. All christians were once non christians,if i wasn't would you turn me away or would you try to correct me?

I chose "Smart People Help" as a title becuase i wanted smart people to help and maybe i am just dumb.

and also so that maybe people that know they aren't experts would not give simple answers that i already tried to apply.

lol Im as dumb as anything, but I will try and help you

livingbygrace · Mar 25, 2010

BrainEatBible said:

None of us is smart, our human wisdom can only get in the way of a life of faith. If you are really concerned about the book of Genesis(or anything else) I wouold suggest you ask the Holy Spirt to guide and show you, He leads us into all truth we need to know.

Incudentally Charles Spurgeon said it can be spiritual suicide to try and reason and understand eveything in scripture before we move on. My advice would be to live a simple life of faith in Jesus, trusting him through the Spirit to teach you what you need to know. As for the rest? If it is not shown you, it is not important to you

BrainEatBible · Mar 25, 2010

Thanks for advice, my ignorance may be offensive but not intended..so don't take offense. I will try praying to God like you said because your right and its better to get the info from the source. but if its not shown it will still be important however. I imagine my kids (if God allows) will be smarter than me and i don't want to fail me and my descendants or ancestors.

Also this is very important because it is the first part of the bible...I believe that something true can't just be true to yourself. if a nonchristian says to their self "Hey I wonder what Christians or Jews believe about creation?", they will read genesis and may be turned away or turned away by Christians that skipped by parts that they accepted as a kid (like me).. and they could be scientists, engineers, philosophers etc etc. I know nothing really so just with basic knowledge i have these questions. .Certain things God has us to do for ourself and thinking is a main one, like choosing sides, he doesn't want slaves Thanks for a good response. I will pray though.

phil36 · Mar 25, 2010

Hello, this is my first post. I am starting in the book of Genesis because I am reading the bible over again. This is a long thread, so read the first paragraph if u just want to answer one question. You may need to read Genesis over again to understand. I'm using the New International Version. OK here we go. I will put numbers after every question, so just put the number before your answer.

Most things can be answered by saying that God can do anything.(must for Chapter 1) I agree. I am only confused about some of the statements and roles of the characters. Anything that speaks makes a false statement it seems. First God commanded man " You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." OK then God makes the first women (Eve) -hopefully she was informed-....In the next part it says that "the serpent was more crafty than any of the other wild animals". I always assumed that meant deceptive/ sly or does it mean resourceful/smart? The snake asks Eve " Did God really say, You must not eat from any tree in the garden?" she says that " We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden but God did say, you must not eat fruit from the tree in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die." - It seems she added the part about touching the fruit...The snake responds " You will not surely die for God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." then Eve ate it and Adam ate the fruit...[they die and thats the end.jk]....NO. What immediately happens is their eyes are opened and they realize they are naked. So far what the snake said would happen, did happen and what God said didn't happen, please tell me why?- #1 is that possible? #2

Yes their eyes are opened, but yet they are not like God? They where deceived by clever play of words their pride also played a part they wanted to be like God. So in a way you are correct their eyes where opened. Firstly they disobeyed God, secondly this was through their pride. The part where they realize they are naked shows their shame (as you will see later that God clothes them, this is a sign of God’s grace)
Gen. 2:17 While God generously permitted the man to eat from every tree of the garden, God prohibited him from eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (v. 17). The fruit of this tree has been variously understood as giving (1) sexual awareness, (2) moral discrimination, (3) moral responsibility, and (4) moral experience. Of these possibilities, the last is the most likely: by their obedience or disobedience the human couple will come to know good and evil by experience. Experience gained by “fearing the Lord” (Prov. 1:7) is wisdom, while that gained by disobeying God is slavery. In the day implies fixed certainty rather than absolute immediacy (e.g., 1 Kings 2:42). See note on Gen. 3:4–5. you shall surely die (2:17). What kind of “death” does this threaten: physical, spiritual, or some combination? The Hebrew word can be used for any of these ideas, and the only way to find out is by reading to see what happens as the story unfolds.
When Adam ate the fruit he flagrantly disobeyed God, a conscious rebelion against God, thus failed to keep a divinely ordained responsibility to keep (guard) garden and and the woman God had provided as a helper.

Now to get to the point of death. God through His grace/mercy lets them live for a time (body return to the ground), yet things have changed, their perfect relationship is broken through disobedience. The punishement of work for the man is not work itself but the hardship and frustration that this will now bring. Yet they will die and do die, the wages of sin is death.

It is only by the grace of God that he postponed their death.

Maybe Satan rearranged the bible or something because it makes no sense because its like the bible is saying that God is worse than the snake? and that he lies? Read above.

Is being all powerful and good mean you have the power to be bad also? This statement is flawed, you are saying God created Evil, God created Satan who through his own pride rebelled against God(this is sin by the way rebelling against God)#3 or else your not really all powerful. Example: Christ is perfect, he would not be perfect maybe if he could not do something like become a man/imperfect..right..the only problem is that the ability to make yourself imperfect may be an imperfection/flaw sooo is true perfection possible without being 2 things that negate each other? #4
Again this is flawed, God is perfect in all His ways, for He is God, perfect Holiness, perfect Justice. Perfect Love, the imperfection is caused by rebellion against Him. For a look at God’s Holy Character have a look at the teb commandments.
Christ went back to perfect body so that means its possible to go to perfection if u have the spirit of God/ are god? like if u wear a blue shirt then that shirt is blue, if you take off the shirt the shirt is still a blue shirt.but separate from you. But i don't know if i like the idea that god can choose to do right or wrong but it makes sense for all the stuff that happens in the Bible. Again this is flawed, Christ was perfect, he needed to be in order to to take the curse of the law for us, he was the perfect lamb of atonement. God is never wrong, he is perfect, we tend to view God with how we think, but we are not perfect we are flawed, can the creature know the thoughts of the Creator.

God curses the snake to crawl on his belly and eat dust all the days of its life... so then I'm assuming it wasn't a real snake before the curse yes that is correct. maybe it was a human or Satan which explains the whole talking thing. but the Bible did say that "the serpent was more crafty than any other animal" so it was an animal. and more importantly, tell me what exactly did he do that was wrong?#5 how could the serpent do something wrong if serpents weren't commanded to do, or not do anything? #6
Do you know that? Anyhow the serpent was used by Satan himself or maybe was Satan, he was wrong in his rebellion against God. To see what he did wrong, have a read above. He rebelled against God wanting to be like God, this was trying to ruin what God had created good. Yet God in His grace sustains all things and in His good time will renew all things.

The next part in chapter three is the curses, which are sometimes confusing in who God is targeting because he says "you' and "his" and "her" maybe he was pointing at each one when he said it. Along time ago i thought it was odd that God even uses curses at all, seems like something a witch or Satan could do...just saying. I also thought about the meaning of "you will surely die" maybe he meant he would have to kill them. then he chose not to kill them out of love. that would also explain another reason why they hid from God. but again the serpents response to Eve tells an instant direct effect of taking the fruit.

Yep, God hates sin, the curses when you look at it are grace in itself for through the woman we have the redeemer, Christ. The harmonious relationship between God and man was broken and the relationship between man and the created order was changed. No longer will the ground so easily yield a crop etc, man will have to work under toil. Work itself is not the punishment but the hardship it has now become. Have a look at the Sinai covenant, there are curses and blessings involved with His people.

It is not confusing.. ‘you’ means the two of them, ‘her’ means Eve, and, ‘he’ means Adam. Very simple indeed.

Toward the end of chapter 3 God says, "The man has now become one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

- i don't know what god means by "one of us"...maybe God was a race of beings?#7
This is the Trinity, man is made in the image of God, not other created beings

How come becoming like God, in terms of knowing good and evil, was a bad thing? had we listened to god we would be less like him?#8 I know there are things from god we would not be ready for but he could balance it out with things that make us ready for it instead of being incomplete....Is man evil, with only the image, spirit, and knowledge of god but not immortality?
Again read above, evil is against the character of God, it is rebellion. Man is evil.. you see this in genesis 6 and I think 8 ‘’ man has only evil continually in his heart’ God through His mercy and Grace, provides away for man back into a relationship with himself now ultimately through Christ.

I was told that the tree of life represents Jesus Christ. If so then in theory, eating of that tree you would die. (Die in Christ). did someone reverse things?#9 it would make sense if they ate from that tree and a creature around that tree told the truth. It would make sense that they would feel naked, they would have their eyes opened. Christians fear god so it makes sense if they actually ate from the tree of life.Plus the curses God gave go along with reproduction and life which would be fitting for the crime.

The tree of life is in the new Jerusalem, So are you sure it represents Christ??? It is only through the perfect sacrifice of Jesus that we can be reconciled to God.

Can i trust the last statement god made in chapter 3? I don't know.. it said "us" by the way..and said "they must not eat of the tree of life and live forever." so if the result is backward like the first statement then he is saying they will die sooo he is saying they must not die, so he's trying to protect them?#10 thats all the questions for the fall of man. i probably wont need anything else from genesis answered except the whole Cain thing
I noticed that Seth and Cains genealogy cross paths Chapter 4-5. Noah is Cains great (x5) grandson, in fact. Cains 3 last descendants listed are Noah's father, grandfather, and great grandfather (not counting Enoch because of Irad in chapter 4 but i should). so Caininites they survived the flood and we may all be part Caininite. And also the Genesis creation story when i read it over after reading about Noah's ark, It could have been right after a flood, think about it.Genesis starts with the earth being formless, deep water. Never did God say "let there be water" there was lots of water and land was underneath, so remember that..And then it takes only days for things to take hold/change and seperate....that sounds like a flood going away or finding land to colonize to me. Maybe all things repeat. Noah did curse his grandson Canaan too. Anyways well thats all for now. I'll have #11 for people that want to talk about the Cain thing and if the Bible creation thing could have been a repeat after a previous flood.
I hope you have good answers or if you have jokes then i hope they really are funny and not just sidetracking from the topic.
Thank you very much for reading this far...

MMMMMM … your forgetting that God used the line of Seth???

I am at work , so once I have more time, I will go more indepth.. however even the a simple passing of the text, will show what is going on, a more carefull and thoughfull read will answer your questions, as Livingbygrace said, take it to prayer and the Holy Spirit will guide you.

In Love

Phil

livingbygrace · Mar 25, 2010

BrainEatBible said:

Human intelligence has nothing to do with the Christian life. Peter James and John were fisherman. The Pharisses couldn't believe they knew the amount they did due to their background. Sometimes I believe it can be an advantage if we are not that smart.

I take no offence at all. I have been on another Christian website in the UK. Genesis is being flogged to death there. I can give you the web address if you would like it. But one comment appealed to my simple nature. Is the book of Genesis and how long it took for the creation that important to the Christian life? For intellectual discussion I am sure it can be very stimulating. But speaking personally I keep my overriding focus on Christ, his death on the cross, and how he may enable to live the Christian life.

If we accept Christ into our hearts, I have heard that it is satan who wishes us to become confused, not God. The problem you may have is that if you go through the Bible(a big book) and start to get bogged down in the first three chapters it will take you many years to reach the end.
If our minds insist on working out these things is it not true that this is time spent away from concentrating on our saviour and the Gospel. And I do not say this lightly.

I am afraid I will have to leave theological discussions on this subject to those better able than I. Personally I rarely read the OT. I know, it's bad, but my spiritual growth comes from the Gospels and the letters of the Apostles. I would suggest that these should always be the main focus, especially for the new Christian

God bless

livingbygrace · Mar 25, 2010

I'd just like to add that being convicted of our sin and asking Christ into our lives as Lord and Saviour would not bear any relation to the book of Genesis. For us to come to God we have to be convicted, led to do so, therefore God has begun the work in us before we know anything about it.
Upon the conviction we are given we respond and ask Christ into our lives as Lord and Saviour. A sincere conversion and Christ in our lives will not be affected by the book of Genesis. We will know he abides in us, by the faith we have been given, by the grace of God.
Our trouble comes when we look away to our own understanding rather than by living by faith. If a persons faith can be lost by the Genesis account I do not believe that our Christianity can be based in a knowledge of the Son of God who died for us and gave himself for us.

When you think about it, how much of the Bible does make human sense.

The walls of Jericho crashing down when the Israelites shouted. An army of three hundreed defeating one of thousdands? Daniel being delivered from the lions den? Or the Son of God coming down from the heights of Heaven and exchanging his majesty for a human body like ours, and so he could die a sinner's death on the cross to redeem humanity. I still can't understand that with my mind, I never will. But I know it happened.

Faith begins where logic ends, and without faith it is impossible to be a Christian

BrainEatBible · Mar 25, 2010

Thank You Phil for your answers, I really also wanted to see how other people would think. I like your use of scripture. although new readers couldn't do that. I want to go over the things so i get them right, otherwise it would be useless if i don't understand. I will use the numbers of the questions you answered and we all can refer to them by number.

So for answer for #1
You are saying that what God said would happen, did happen, they would die...eventually, for Adam it took 930 years but did happen. so the effects are not immediate except for the "eyes being opened", the nakedness was apart of a long term knowledge of good and evil. So they were immortal before the sin and saying "you will surely die" means an end to immortality. I wish it was written like that. because you would assume they are normal humans. The snake then was lying about them not going to die at all. Although i hope you understand that if someone says you are going to die, you think its immediately.especially if it is God. The snake was false about death but i think he told them the true effects that would happen. If i told you not to take a drug because it shortens your life, i would list its side effects and why you don't need it. etc.

#2- not possible. now i know

#3- Well with the above it was found that Gods statement of dieing was true but i still think it was vague. I sure don't command people in non literal ways, it doesn't work. Satan used the extra information that God didn't tell them at least. So Satan lied and told truth that was withheld. but the serpent could have said anything, he could have said it makes you fly and have fire breath. Adam had to think the tree did something special but why keep the tree around curious people if it kills?

#4 I was not saying that God is not perfect i was saying that God became a man in Jesus. A Man that hungered, bleeds, Cry etc. So something perfect became something imperfect in body. Though he cant sin makes him perfect in actions/choices. Jesus was tempted and he chose right. I was saying that if something with perfect body or no body can choose to have imperfect body then it can choose good and bad. Why would it be tempted if not able to choose? and #3 was more like the question of whether an all powerful being has the power to lose his power. is that possible? If he can't then he is not all powerful but if you can lose your power you both are and are not all powerful. i hate philosophical loopholes
.
#5 and #6 if the serpent was being used by Satan then the serpent shouldn't have been cursed, animals can't talk anyways. I believe i read a verse later in Job or something that Satan had been going throughout the dirt. so since Satan used a serpent maybe he was cursed to live like one. i was completely wrong about the snake not doing anything wrong

#6 1/2 I see what you mean about the curses. they actually are better than the worthy punishment and they correct the wrong doer.

I was mainly confused about the curses toward the serpent.here it is " So the lord god said to the serpent " because you have done this,

"Cursed are you above all livestock and all the wild animals! ( "You" is for snake) You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life.( still snake) And i will put enmity between you and the woman( snake and woman or Adam and woman?).. and between your offspring and hers( snake offspring and woman? snake offspring and other female snake offspring? or man and woman offspring?) He will crush your head and you will strike his heel ( snakes can strike heels so "you" is snake and we can crush them so "He" means humans?... both man and female? or you might think man and woman if you saw a switch in targets earlier.)

So it is confusing, what did you think the first time you read it? all for snake or switching between snake and humans? I even thought all humans one time, symbolically, all our food comes from the earth(dust) I thought enmity could mean like dating and sex. etc etc.

#7 its the trinity? that makes sense because Jesus was with God in the beginning, The Word was with God. but are all the members of the trinity knowing of good and evil? I can see God talking to Jesus but i don't understand much about the Holy Spirit yet. One would not assume it was the Trinity in Genesis. You would get confused till you read that the son and father are one etc. I thought maybe other animals could talk. or angels maybe

#9? I did not know that the tree of life was in New Jerusalem. It clearly is also in the Garden of Eden, did they move the tree? or is it Jesus? Is new Jerusalem where the garden once was? Iraq is being destroyed so i hope it is not near where the tree of knowledge was at the four rivers. Actually, you know Jesus refers to himself as food a lot like living water and bread... stuff like that so that was another reason i thought he was like a tree of life that one could eat fruit from." like a tree planted by streams of water,which yields its fruit in season" psalm

#11 what do you mean" use the line of Seth?" For Jewish people? He and his descendants where good and Cains where wicked. Cains son was Enoch who had Irad, who had Mehujael who had methushael who had Lamech and lamech had Noah. The time lines may be off some generations, on Seth's line but Cain did have to wander a long time and also builds that city in Nod/exile. His first son was from a Sethite women because Enoch was in both lines before Noah with the same descendants in between. In my bible Cains line does not show age, etc. Noah was the only favorable Cainite i guess.

Thanks for a response that solved most questions. I was wrong about the things i had questions about...who would have thought? XD i hope others narrow down any more questions that exist.

phil36 · Mar 25, 2010

Lol I will refer you back to my earlier post, I don't think oyu are the poor dumb seeker you are letting on to be.. if that where the case you certainly seem to have a knowledge of the subjetc, and I am not talking about what you are saying, however I am refering to the questions put forth. in order to put for the polemic you have you would need to know what is going on.

By the very fact of your polmic in #9 it says it all.

point number #11 is very amusing considering you say you don't know anything?

I will give you 10 out of 10 lol. as I say Im at work at the moment, but when of I can fill in the gaps.

of course, I know you don't need the gaps filled in, you know already, this type of post does not benefit anyone especialy Christians learning.

I hope I am wrong about you and your initial intention, to try and confuse. I can tell just by the questions you are asking.

Anyhow have a good bllesed day

Love

Phil

Ashton · Mar 25, 2010

Hmm. I really don't see a problem. Adam and Eve aren't still physically alive, right? Therefore it's safe to assume they died even if they will be resurrected later. The Bible says that it's appointed for men to die once and after that the judgement, so this makes a distinction between physical death and spiritual death. It would still be good to determine, though, whether or not God was saying that Adam and Eve would die spiritually and thus would need Christ's sacrifice or if he was merely saying that they would die physically as is often accepted.

loveschild · Mar 25, 2010

The people did start dying. People were meant from the begining to live forever.

BrainEatBible · Mar 25, 2010

loveschild said:

You are completely right Thank you for responding, but the Bible did not say that " people were meant to live forever." That is important. I was going off the bible for the information.

So if I read the Bible and try believing everything as it is said, even accepting the impossibilities ( because God can do anything) then something said by god, did not happen as you would think.

Not until chapter 5 would you see that Adam lived only 930 years. they let you think god saying they will "surely die" was wrong for a chapter and a half. but in chapter 5 with Adam living 930 years, I still didn't make the connection when reading, that 930 years meant "die". that sounds more like shortened immortality. Its like a vampires lifespan, till someone stakes him. Also eventually after 900 years, what are the chances of something killing you on accident? especially if we believe all animals( dinosaurs) were around.

It also never said that they died from the fruits curse on their life. Because old age cant kill them assuming they were exposed flesh and not metal, and the descendants lived different years so they died in different ways or God must have individually postponed the curse that they would die.
In fact Enoch never died. if you read chapter 5 you will see that he walked with God and God took him away. So that shows that God can make exceptions to his original command that "you will surely die."

Thank you

Israel · Mar 25, 2010

BrainEatBible said:

You are completely right Thank you for responding, but the Bible did not say that " people were meant to live forever." That is important. I was going off the bible for the information.

So if I read the Bible and try believing everything as it is said, even accepting the impossibilities ( because God can do anything) then something said by god, did not happen as you would think.

Not until chapter 5 would you see that Adam lived only 930 years. they let you think god saying they will "surely die" was wrong for a chapter and a half. but in chapter 5 with Adam living 930 years, I still didn't make the connection when reading, that 930 years meant "die". that sounds more like shortened immortality. Its like a vampires lifespan, till someone stakes him. Also eventually after 900 years, what are the chances of something killing you on accident? especially if we believe all animals( dinosaurs) were around.

It also never said that they died from the fruits curse on their life. Because old age cant kill them assuming they were exposed flesh and not metal, and the descendants lived different years so they died in different ways or God must have individually postponed the curse that they would die.
In fact Enoch never died. if you read chapter 5 you will see that he walked with God and God took him away. So that shows that God can make exceptions to his original command that "you will surely die."

Thank you

What specifically are you looking for?

Mulehide · Mar 25, 2010

I have heard it said that before the Flood the earth was more like a greenhouse rather than the earth we now know. People, animals, etc all lived longer before the Flood. Directly after the Flood man's lifespan shortened drastically. God's "punishments" or "curses" are not always immediate. In other places in the Bible God's judgment was delayed (city of Ninevah, Israel under King Josiah). I would say this is proof of a merciful loving God not a deceitful God. If Adam and Eve had died immediately, where would have been the opportunity for redemption. They did die yes, but first had a chance to be reconciled to God. God did destroy Ninevah but only after having given them an opportunity to repent (Jonah.) Isreal was once again taken captive as God had said but not under the reign of Josiah because Josiah more than any other king followed after God with all his heart.

We are not told that Enoch did not die. We are told "and Enoch was not for God took Him." Many, myself included, are guilty of trying to rationalize and explain God. We try to find things that might be/are difficult to understand so that we feel vindicated in our search for truth. This search is futile however without having the simple faith of a child that says "God said it and I trust Him explicitly so I believe all He says is true." I do not propose blind faith but rather an acceptance that it is not required to have full understanding of the Bible to have faith in God. That is a dangerous trap.

I pray you will find the answers you seek.

BrainEatBible · Mar 26, 2010

Israel said:

Well, "...a man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the lord." Deuteronomy 8:3

if i don't understand the word then I am not a good follower. In anything. I'm looking to use Genesis and what God says to fill the truth hunger about creations word specifically first. From it all of the other word of god comes after and is a result of the fall of man etc.

If i am giving him priority over what i thought was true, all history and false science, If i am feeding myself something true, then it should satisfy the truth hunger.

I see Gods love, I see Jesus even in genesis. Jesus is the word. If i give someone else the food i am eating, i want them to be satisfied too. Or else my stomach may just be small or (brain) or (spirit) in comparison to someone else.

And maybe I don't really care what happens in or about creation as much as I care that it is digestible. By me or anyone else.

Israel · Mar 26, 2010

BrainEatBible said:

Here's a little food for thought.

Genesis 1:29-31

And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. 31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Genesis 2:15-17

And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Why on day six God lets man eat from every tree, then after gives him a command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

Smart People! Help!..Fall of Man?

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