If you aren’t going up in the rapture, are you ready to be interrogated?

[Chuckt]

If you aren’t going up in the rapture, are you ready to be interrogated?
By Chuckt (C) 4-11-2013

Revelation 9:1 ¶ And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Revelation 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
Revelation 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Revelation 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment [was] as the torment (g928 βασανίζω basanizō ) of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

The word “torment” is an interesting word for testing. It means to question by applying torture.

Strong's G928 - basanizō

2) to question by applying torture

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G928&t=KJV

Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words:

B-1 Verb Strong's Number: g928 Greek: basanizo

Distress, Distressed:

properly signifies "to test by rubbing on the touchstone" (basanos, "a touchstone"), then, "to question by applying torture;" hence "to vex, torment;" in the Passive Voice, "to be harassed, distressed;" it is said of men struggling in a boat against wind and waves, Mat 14:24, RV, "distressed" (AV, "tossed"); Mar 6:48, RV, "distressed" (AV, "toiling").
See PAIN, TOIL, TORMENT, VEX.

Revelation 9:7 And the shapes of the locusts [were] like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads [were] as it were crowns like gold, and their faces [were] as the faces of men.
Revelation 9:8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as [the teeth] of lions.
Revelation 9:9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings [was] as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
Revelation 9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power [was] to hurt men five months.

Joel 2:4 The appearance of them [is] as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
Joel 2:5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
Joel 2:6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
Revelation 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
Joel 2:7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
Joel 2:8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and [when] they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
Joel 2:9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
Joel 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
Joel 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp [is] very great: for [he is] strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD [is] great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

 

[DP]

Wahoo! Hullabaloo! I'm soooo... afraid!!! Who can save me?

Don't have fear brethren, it's the eternal life of our spirit/soul our Lord Jesus promised His servants who wait for Him, and He told us to not fear those who can kill our flesh body but not our soul (Matt.28:10).

Pre-tribbers love... to play you like a harp if you'll let them, trying to SCARE you into believing their false pre-trib rapture doctrine!

They're like those traveling carpetbaggers selling miracle potions at a side show. Even in Ezekiel 13 God showed how they hunt the souls of His people to make them 'fly'!

 

[breno785au]

To answer the question, no probably not.

 

[Chuckt]

Wahoo! Hullabaloo! I'm soooo... afraid!!! Who can save me?

Don't have fear brethren, it's the eternal life of our spirit/soul our Lord Jesus promised His servants who wait for Him, and He told us to not fear those who can kill our flesh body but not our soul (Matt.28:10).

Pre-tribbers love... to play you like a harp if you'll let them, trying to SCARE you into believing their false pre-trib rapture doctrine!

They're like those traveling carpetbaggers selling miracle potions at a side show. Even in Ezekiel 13 God showed how they hunt the souls of His people to make them 'fly'!

Do you listen to Arnold Murray by any chance?

 

[Blain]

I don't know when the rapture is whether it's before in the middle or after the tribulation but there is no amount of torture or pain that will be able overcome us. What exactly is your motive in this thread? we are to plant the seeds of hope not fear, if we don't go in the rapture who is to say it is because we were not worthy? Perhaps God plans to specifically leave certain ppl to shine his light in the time of darkness because after all have ever noticed that light is most visible in the dark?

 

[Chuckt]

I don't know when the rapture is whether it's before in the middle or after the tribulation but there is no amount of torture or pain that will be able overcome us. What exactly is your motive in this thread? we are to plant the seeds of hope not fear, if we don't go in the rapture who is to say it is because we were not worthy? Perhaps God plans to specifically leave certain ppl to shine his light in the time of darkness because after all have ever noticed that light is most visible in the dark?

My purpose is to go verse by verse and to say what scripture says.

 

[DP]

Do you listen to Arnold Murray by any chance?

Do you listen to Joel Osteen or Tim LaHaye? Covered any of LaHaye's "Left-Behind" published materials in Church instead of relying on God's Holy Writ?

 

[Willie-T]

Since I find no "Rapture" anywhere in the Bible, I will just be here, like you (if we live that long.... which COULD be 10,000 years, so it ain't likely) when Jesus finally does return.

 

[Blain]

My purpose is to go verse by verse and to say what scripture says.

Then your going about it the wrong way. You can't begin something like that with a question like that it's like with a story it has a suttle beginning and as the story goes on it becomes more intense more complicated and doesn't usually get to the nitty gritty until about half way in

if your intention is to have a bible study discussion then you need to begin slow and not bombard at the start with a question like that

 

[DP]

My purpose is to go verse by verse and to say what scripture says.

No it isn't. Your purpose is to sell the Biblical illiterate a lie, the false pre-trib rapture. Like I said on another thread to you, there is NO Bible Scripture that says Jesus comes to gather His Church prior to the trib He taught.

 

[shrimp]

going by your main scripture, I am not worried.

Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; ​

but only those men which​

have not​

the seal of God in their foreheads​

.
It stands to reason that there will be those that do have the seal of God in their foreheads.​

 

[Chuckt]

Since I find no "Rapture" anywhere in the Bible, I will just be here, like you (if we live that long.... which COULD be 10,000 years, so it ain't likely) when Jesus finally does return.

Various Raptures:

Paul caught up to third heaven – 2 Corinthians 12:2,4
The Church Rapture – 1 Thessalonians 4:17
Philip caught away by the spirit – Acts 8:39
Man child caught away – Revelation 12:5
Two witnesses caught up – Revelation 11:12
Enoch taken – Hebrews 11:5
84%, Location 10565, Ancient Prophecies Revealed, Ken Johnson, Th.D.

Names for the Rapture of the Church in Scripture

The Appearing – Hebrews 9:28
The Blessed Hope of “the appearing” – Titus 2:13
The Catching away – 1 Thessalonians 4:17
The Changing – 1 Corinthians 15:52
The Entering the bridal chamber – Isaiah 26:19-21
The Gathering – 2 Thessalonians 2:1
The Manifesting of the Sons of God – Romans 8:18-25
The Rescue/Deliverance from “the wrath” – 1 Thessalonians 1:10
The Rescue – Daniel 12:1-2
The Revelation of Jesus Christ – 1 Corinthians 1:7; 1 Peter 1:13
The Transformation – Philippians 3:20-21
84%, Location 10590, Ancient Prophecies Revealed, Ken Johnson, Th.D.

“The sky being split apart like a scroll is the church being taken away.” (Revelation 6:14) Victorinus Commentary on Revelation 6:14 – AD 240

“And I saw another great and wonderful sign, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is completed the wrath of God. (Revelation 15:1) and these shall be in the last time, when the Church shall have gone out of the midst.” (2 Thessalonians 2:7) Commentary on the Apocalypse 15.1 – Victorinus AD 240

84%, Location 10633, Ancient Prophecies Revealed, Ken Johnson, Th.D.

“Luke 21:23 says the “wrath” is for His people Israrel. The church is not appointed to wrath, (1 Thessalonians 5:9) and will be kept from the hour of trial (Revelation 3:10) because the gates of hell will not prevail against the church (Matthew 16:17).

84%, Location 10646, Ancient Prophecies Revealed, Ken Johnson, Th.D.

“…because all saints and the elect of the LORD are gathered together before the Tribulation which is about to come and be taken to the LORD…” On The Last Times 2 – Ephraim the Syrian AD 373

84%, Location 10698, Ancient Prophecies Revealed, Dr. Ken Johnson, Th.D.

 

[Chuckt]

Since I find no "Rapture" anywhere in the Bible, I will just be here, like you (if we live that long.... which COULD be 10,000 years, so it ain't likely) when Jesus finally does return.

How the Word “Rapture” or “Harpazō” is used in the Bible.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up (harpazō) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Strong's G726 - harpazō
1) to seize, carry off by force
2) to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
3) to snatch out or away
AV — catch up 4, take by force 3, catch away 2, pluck 2, catch 1, pull 1

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G726&t=KJV

Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take (harpazō) it by force (harpazō).

Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth [it] not, then cometh the wicked [one], and catcheth away (harpazō) that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

John 6:15 ¶ When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force (harpazō), to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

John 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth (harpazō) them, and scattereth the sheep.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall (harpazō) never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck (harpazō) them out of my hand.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck (harpazō) [them] out of my Father's hand.

Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away (harpazō) Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Acts 23:10 And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take (harpazō) him by force (harpazō) from among them, and to bring [him] into the castle.

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up (harpazō) to the third heaven.

2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught (harpazō) up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up (harpazō) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling (harpazō) [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up (harpazō) unto God, and [to] his throne.

 

[DP]

Various Raptures:

Paul caught up to third heaven – 2 Corinthians 12:2,4
The Church Rapture – 1 Thessalonians 4:17
Philip caught away by the spirit – Acts 8:39
Man child caught away – Revelation 12:5
Two witnesses caught up – Revelation 11:12
Enoch taken – Hebrews 11:5
84%, Location 10565, Ancient Prophecies Revealed, Ken Johnson, Th.D.

Of course NONE of those above Scriptures Except 1 Thess.4 have anything to do with Christ's coming to gather His Church, and that 1 Thess.4 chapter does not give us the timing of the event, i.e., whether it's to be before or after the tribulation.

This is what pre-trib rapture folks are taught to do, add a lot of unrelated Scripture to an idea to fool the unstudied into thinking their false pre-trib doctrine is Biblically supported when it is not.

 

[Blain]

No it isn't. Your purpose is to sell the Biblical illiterate a lie, the false pre-trib rapture. Like I said on another thread to you, there is NO Bible Scripture that says Jesus comes to gather His Church prior to the trib He taught.

Not so sure that is why he is here. And also yes there is scripture to support Jesus returning to gather his church before the trib just as there is scripture to support the mid and post trib rapture as well it's all based on the eye of the beholder.
The good thing about not having a stance on the rapture is I can see scripture to support all of the rapture beliefs because I do not have a firm stance on any of them and many times we see in the scriptures what we believe not necessarily the truth

 

[Chuckt]

Why Believers won’t go through the Tribulation
By Chuckt (C) 12-15-2007

My pastors always give the illustration that the Church is the bride of Christ and as the husband is told to love their wives and God is not going to beat up His wife before the marriage:

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

It seems inconsistent for Christ not to love the church, not to give Himself for it and not to love His bride by making the Church go through the Tribulation. That is not the example of Scripture.

Lot and Noah are types of the rapture because, “.. the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;” (Romans 1:18) which is not the Church and didn’t include Lot or Noah. “But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.” Gen 6:8 We found grace in the eyes of the Lord because “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:”-Ephesians 2:8-9. Therefore I have to conclude that we have the same grace as Noah received and we should escape the tribulation flood.

Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

I put myself in Revelation 5:9 and will sing “thou was slain, and has redeemed US” because the Church is in Heaven and the only one who can sing that song is “US”.

Luke 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw [this], they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

Luke 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

Luke 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save [them]. And they went to another village.

I don’t know why people believe that Jesus is going to send down fire on believers in the Tribulation period but I have to say, ”Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.”

Then you have to explain why men will go through the Tribulation but why ordinary tragedies are not judgments of God:

Luke 13:1 ¶ There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.

Luke 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luke 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Isn't the first appearance of Jesus for saving men and the second appearance for judging?

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we are going to go through the tribulation then God would seem to be punishing us. I think that if you believe in the assurance of the believer then you can't believe in going through the tribulation because that means that God hasn't cleansed you from all unrighteousness and that it (the work of the cross) isn't finished (John 19:30) because you are still paying for sins during the tribulation and that would contradict Ephesians 2:8-9 to mean that it isn't by grace through faith but it is by works that give you assurance.

Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

If you are going through the tribulation as a believer then Ephesians 2:3 can't say that you "were by nature the children of wrath" but should say that you "are the children of wrath" (not in the Bible) because you are the object of wrath during the tribulation.

I think that people suffering over the years for their faith is a result of man or Satan.

I believe that those who didn't believe us but may later see us leave in the rapture will believe because of that event. I think that those people and those of the false church will be persecuted. The tribulation is an event that God brings on to a Christ rejecting world and there is no reasons for God to punish Christians because (1) Christ paid for their sins and (2) the object is to bring wrath against those who don't want to believe or took the mark of the beast:

Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:


Revelation 16:1 ¶ And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Revelation 16:2 ¶ And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and [upon] them which worshipped his image.

A reason is:

Revelation 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

The objects of God’s wrath are unbelievers whom are probably very difficult for man to evangelize.

Revelation 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Revelation 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Revelation 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, [every stone] about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

The above verses use examples of men who are clearly not believers. They are blasphemers and they are hard to deal with individuals.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

These are people who suppress the truth because they hold the truth in unrighteousness.

Romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent (admitting no change of mind / unrepentant) heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Hardness and impenitent (unrepentant) are the reasons why they treasure up unto themselves for the day of wrath.

So you have to choose whether we will go through wrath because you can't believe that we will go through wrath and being saved from wrath (Romans 5:9). Either you are justified by His blood or you aren't.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Who is the "them" in 1 Thessalonians 2:16?

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

It isn't the "us" in 1 Thessalonians 5:9.

 

[DP]

Not so sure that is why he is here. And also yes there is scripture to support Jesus returning to gather his church before the trib just as there is scripture to support the mid and post trib rapture as well it's all based on the eye of the beholder.
The good thing about not having a stance on the rapture is I can see scripture to support all of the rapture beliefs because I do not have a firm stance on any of them and many times we see in the scriptures what we believe not necessarily the truth

No Scripture that shows Jesus gathering His Church prior to the trib. Instead Jesus showed His coming to gather His Church is AFTER the trib (Matt.24; Mark 13), which Paul also showed in 2 Thess.2.

He is here to deceive brethren who are Biblically unstudied. Matters not whether he is doing that out of ignorance or on purpose. An un-Scriptural doctrine is still a lie. No PC treatment needed.

 

[Chuckt]

Questions for Post Tribulationists
By Chuckt © 6-20-2008

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Jude 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

What point would there be for Jesus to rapture us if He is coming with His saints? And the rapture indicates Jesus came for his saints:

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

If you take the mark, it is eternal damnation and if you don't take the mark, you are killed. So if they kill everybody then how can they say there are sheep and goats to separate at the end?

Matthew 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

If the 144,000 are sealed and accounted for then what purpose is there in separating the sheep from the goats?

Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

How does the Bride of Christ come with Christ from heaven if the Bride of Christ is supposed to be on the earth?

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Revelation 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

 

[DP]

Why Believers won’t go through the Tribulation
By Chuckt (C) 12-15-2007

My pastors always give the illustration that the Church is the bride of Christ and as the husband is told to love their wives and God is not going to beat up His wife before the marriage:

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

It seems inconsistent for Christ not to love the church, not to give Himself for it and not to love His bride by making the Church go through the Tribulation. That is not the example of Scripture.

Lot and Noah are types of the rapture because, “.. the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;” (Romans 1:18) which is not the Church and didn’t include Lot or Noah. “But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.” Gen 6:8 We found grace in the eyes of the Lord because “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:”-Ephesians 2:8-9. Therefore I have to conclude that we have the same grace as Noah received and we should escape the tribulation flood.

Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

I put myself in Revelation 5:9 and will sing “thou was slain, and has redeemed US” because the Church is in Heaven and the only one who can sing that song is “US”.

Luke 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw [this], they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

Luke 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

Luke 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save [them]. And they went to another village.

I don’t know why people believe that Jesus is going to send down fire on believers in the Tribulation period but I have to say, ”Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.”

Then you have to explain why men will go through the Tribulation but why ordinary tragedies are not judgments of God:

Luke 13:1 ¶ There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.

Luke 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luke 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Isn't the first appearance of Jesus for saving men and the second appearance for judging?

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we are going to go through the tribulation then God would seem to be punishing us. I think that if you believe in the assurance of the believer then you can't believe in going through the tribulation because that means that God hasn't cleansed you from all unrighteousness and that it (the work of the cross) isn't finished (John 19:30) because you are still paying for sins during the tribulation and that would contradict Ephesians 2:8-9 to mean that it isn't by grace through faith but it is by works that give you assurance.

Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

If you are going through the tribulation as a believer then Ephesians 2:3 can't say that you "were by nature the children of wrath" but should say that you "are the children of wrath" (not in the Bible) because you are the object of wrath during the tribulation.

I think that people suffering over the years for their faith is a result of man or Satan.

I believe that those who didn't believe us but may later see us leave in the rapture will believe because of that event. I think that those people and those of the false church will be persecuted. The tribulation is an event that God brings on to a Christ rejecting world and there is no reasons for God to punish Christians because (1) Christ paid for their sins and (2) the object is to bring wrath against those who don't want to believe or took the mark of the beast:

Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:


Revelation 16:1 ¶ And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Revelation 16:2 ¶ And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and [upon] them which worshipped his image.

A reason is:

Revelation 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

The objects of God’s wrath are unbelievers whom are probably very difficult for man to evangelize.

Revelation 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Revelation 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Revelation 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, [every stone] about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

The above verses use examples of men who are clearly not believers. They are blasphemers and they are hard to deal with individuals.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

These are people who suppress the truth because they hold the truth in unrighteousness.

Romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent (admitting no change of mind / unrepentant) heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Hardness and impenitent (unrepentant) are the reasons why they treasure up unto themselves for the day of wrath.

So you have to choose whether we will go through wrath because you can't believe that we will go through wrath and being saved from wrath (Romans 5:9). Either you are justified by His blood or you aren't.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Who is the "them" in 1 Thessalonians 2:16?

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

It isn't the "us" in 1 Thessalonians 5:9.

Important to note brethren, how the pre-tribber intentionally omit Scripture like the following in their busy-bee lie of a pre-trib rapture:

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


31 And he shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV


2 Thess 2:1-4
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,


2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.


3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV

 

[Chuckt]

50 Reasons for the Pre Tribulation Rapture by John Walvoord
Pre-Trib Rapture - 50 Arguments - Walvoord

[h=3]250 REASONS FOR PRE-TRIB RAPTURE[/h]
Jesus is the Coming King!: 250 REASONS FOR PRE-TRIB RAPTURE