Another question.. What about the Indians

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Rphardy

Banned
#1
Mar 11, 2016
24
0
0
#1
I asked this question to a good friend who answered in a way I don't get.

"If the only way to get to heaven is to accept Jesus into your heart, what happened to the people who had no clue he even ever existed?"

The answer "They should have known he existed because of existence itself"

OK... please explain. So being raised an Indian in the 1700-1800's meant you were taught to believe in other gods, or whatever. Being taught the wrong way was not your fault. So now god says I'm sorry but you are going to hell because you were taught wrong. And Oh - by the way - I knew it would happen to you because that was my plan for you. Since, after all, I have a plan for everyone.

So now god himself actually planned for people to go to hell. I brought this up and all I got was "I don't make the rules, they are what they are"

I'm a parent. No matter what my children do or who they turn out to be I will always accept them. I will always have a place for them in my heart. I will never push them away. But it's my understanding that god does push people away for not being like him. I don't get this either. This can't be right. It makes me feel like I'm actually a better person (or soul, or whatever, you get the drift) than god himself. Yet this can't be right. So what is it?
 
blue_ladybug

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
#2
Feb 21, 2014
70,869
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#2
The Indians most definitely had a sense of God. They referred to him as the "Great Spirit" who "created mother earth and all therein". :) They believed in hunting, not for fun, but for food and clothing. The Indians were indeed very spiritual. Just because they called him the Great Spirit, instead of God, doesn't mean they didn't have a sense of him. They knew the Great Spirit as a creator. As far as if they had knowlege of Jesus, I doubt it.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#3
Jul 3, 2015
55,817
25,993
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#3
Some teach that indigenous North Americans did have not just a sense of Jesus, but that Jesus actually visited them and walked among them for a time, as He did the Israelites. Aside from that, God can reveal Himself to whomever He chooses, as He chooses. We are also told that we are responsible for that which we have been given, or entrusted: the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#4
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
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#4
The American Indians were a rather savage bunch. The Pilgrims no doubt attempted to evangelize them. The Incas and the Mayans also had a very blood thirsty history.

God has said that He is known through His creation. Those who have the law are judged by the law and those who have not the law are judged without the law. The Indians should have known that killing and such was against God without the bible and without the law. We have no record of how or who may have attempted to evangelize them but God knows and deals with them accordingly.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#5
Jul 3, 2015
55,817
25,993
113
#5
Rphardy said:
I'm a parent. No matter what my children do or who they turn out to be I will always accept them. I will always have a place for them in my heart. I will never push them away. But it's my understanding that god does push people away for not being like him. I don't get this either. This can't be right. It makes me feel like I'm actually a better person (or soul, or whatever, you get the drift) than god himself. Yet this can't be right. So what is it?
Click to expand...
What that is called is your pride: pride of life, pride of the flesh, the reason for the fall of man, and why Satan got the proverbial boot from heaven. You have been given life, consciousness, sensibilities, and yet none of these in and of themselves make you worthy of receiving more of what God offers. Eternal life is extended only to those who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and savior. You say you are a parent but there is nothing you can do to prevent your children from dying the first death of the flesh, and you had children knowing they were going to suffer and eventually die. Jesus said the flesh counts for nothing. Nothing! It is the Spirit that gives life. Get right with that.
 
tanakh

tanakh

Senior Member
#6
Dec 1, 2015
4,635
1,040
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#6
I believe that people are judged according to the light they have received. People are born with a conscience of what is right and wrong. Other religions contain moral codes and how they live up to them is what they will be judged by.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#7
Jul 3, 2015
55,817
25,993
113
#7
Jeremiah 29 (KJV)

11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord,
thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray
unto me, and I will hearken unto you.
13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall
search for me with all your heart.
 
Willie-T

Willie-T

Banned
#8
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
413
0
#8
Without going into all the usual rhetoric about the various understandings of who God is around the world, we all already know that "THE" Deity recognizes His creations no matter what they call Him, or how they happen to worship Him.

As far as the "Jeezsus" awareness goes, (deliberately misspelled), I for one, wouldn't have cared a thing more about "Religion" and the way my Baptist teachers told me to engage in it if I had not one day come to question if there was not more to all this "stuff" than just what we were going to "the building" and doing every week.

I think that was what our Bible calls "The Holy Spirit" tugging at me, letting me know that my idea of worship needed to include seeing other people more as the man we call, Jesus, did. And I think that there is something in each of their cultures that touches them the same way... even if they live their entire lives never even knowing there was an ancient person called whatever they called Jesus in Aramaic... which I have heard spoken, and it is NOTHING like any of the several different names we call Him here in America, even if we do think we are honoring Him by attempting to speak Hebrew.

Now, whether or not they listen and acknowledge that urging....... well I think THAT will be the "Sheep & Goats" thing in their afterlives........ not if they knew a certain name to sing songs about.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#9
Jan 13, 2016
16,614
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#9
Genesis 18:25, "That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

Two things you can count on according to Scripture:

1. God will judge man
2. God will be right in His judgment

No matter what else the Scripture has to say, we should be content with that. The judge of all the earth will do right.
 
A

abcdef

Senior Member
#10
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
111
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#10
Brothers and Sisters,

Ro 3:27, "Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
V 28, Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
v 29, Is He the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes,of the Gentiles also:
 
K

keepitsimple

Guest
#11
#11
notuptome said:
The American Indians were a rather savage bunch. The Pilgrims no doubt attempted to evangelize them. The Incas and the Mayans also had a very blood thirsty history.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Click to expand...
You paint with a rather broad brush Roger. This claim surprised me given that they could only have been observed in the context of having their very lifestyle and homeland being under the threat of siege ... which history proves correct. Every nation that came to America (Spain, Britain, France) all had long documented histories of warring themselves. History is always written by the victors.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#12
#12
native americans would have been under the covenant of Noah lake all other nations out side of Israel.

majority of the north american natives believed in one creator. they spent a great deal of their time giving thanks to their creator and devoted much of their lives to spirituality.
there is also a common story among many of the north american tribes about a great teacher/healer that walked the land and visited many of the tribes. many think this was Jesus.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#13
#13
Here's how C S Lewis in Mere Christianity answered (or didn't answer) the question....


"Here is another thing that used to puzzle me. Is it not frightfully unfair that this new life should be confined to people who have heard of Christ and been able to believe in Him? But the truth is God has not told us what His arrangements about the other people are. We do know that no man can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him. But in the meantime, if you are worried about the people outside, the most unreasonable thing you can do is remain outside yourself. Christians are Christ's body, the organism through which he works. Every addition to that body enables Him to do more. If you want to help those outside you must add your own little cell to the body of Christ who alone can help them. Cutting off a man's fingers would be an odd way of getting him to do more work."
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#14
#14
Rphardy said:
I asked this question to a good friend who answered in a way I don't get.

"If the only way to get to heaven is to accept Jesus into your heart, what happened to the people who had no clue he even ever existed?"

The answer "They should have known he existed because of existence itself"

OK... please explain. So being raised an Indian in the 1700-1800's meant you were taught to believe in other gods, or whatever. Being taught the wrong way was not your fault. So now god says I'm sorry but you are going to hell because you were taught wrong. And Oh - by the way - I knew it would happen to you because that was my plan for you. Since, after all, I have a plan for everyone.

So now god himself actually planned for people to go to hell. I brought this up and all I got was "I don't make the rules, they are what they are"

I'm a parent. No matter what my children do or who they turn out to be I will always accept them. I will always have a place for them in my heart. I will never push them away. But it's my understanding that god does push people away for not being like him. I don't get this either. This can't be right. It makes me feel like I'm actually a better person (or soul, or whatever, you get the drift) than god himself. Yet this can't be right. So what is it?
Click to expand...
How do you consider yourself a Christian if this is the best you can do for understanding? Have you ever read anything in the Bible at all? Ever read the Gospel of John? This question is covered throughout the Bible, particularly in the Gospel of John, which is generally one of the first books people believe. And yet you asked a friend?

And you say you're a parent, so it can't be you're just too young to have ever read the Bible or John.

I get this question if you had chosen "unsure" as your religion when you signed up, or even "unbeliever," but you clicked Christian, and so...?

Huh?
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#15
Nov 24, 2012
30,706
3,650
113
#15
Willie-T said:
Without going into all the usual rhetoric about the various understandings of who God is around the world, we all already know that "THE" Deity recognizes His creations no matter what they call Him, or how they happen to worship Him.

As far as the "Jeezsus" awareness goes, (deliberately misspelled), I for one, wouldn't have cared a thing more about "Religion" and the way my Baptist teachers told me to engage in it if I had not one day come to question if there was not more to all this "stuff" than just what we were going to "the building" and doing every week.

I think that was what our Bible calls "The Holy Spirit" tugging at me, letting me know that my idea of worship needed to include seeing other people more as the man we call, Jesus, did. And I think that there is something in each of their cultures that touches them the same way... even if they live their entire lives never even knowing there was an ancient person called whatever they called Jesus in Aramaic... which I have heard spoken, and it is NOTHING like any of the several different names we call Him here in America, even if we do think we are honoring Him by attempting to speak Hebrew.

Now, whether or not they listen and acknowledge that urging....... well I think THAT will be the "Sheep & Goats" thing in their afterlives........ not if they knew a certain name to sing songs about.
Click to expand...
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. (Act 4:12)

...but I suppose you'd consider that religious nonsense.
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#16
#16
A lot of missionary brothers and sisters took the gospel to the nation of the people's (Indians) and were well received. Just like in today's society there are traditionalist and non traditionalist, (believers and non believers).
History paints a dim picture of the native people's but there are so many lies and buried truths one would have to spend sometime to get to the truth.
I know you are familiar with sitting bull he knew of the Christ, also black kettle and so on.
Ever wonder why there is a church built on the site of wounded knee where under it were buried 300native people?...it is much like the story of which Paul spoke of as the unnamed God.
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

Senior Member
#17
Jul 2, 2011
21,228
6,526
113
#17
You are aware that without Jesus Christ in our hearts, we are yet pagans, Gentiles that is.

It is written in Romans, many pagans have the truth inscribed on their hearts and their own consciences will accuse or excuse them as they act. My immediate reaction to reading this was, this is a strong admonition to never judge others for any reason, especially by appearances, rather our judgment should be with right judgment, and if that is no come to us, we should, like Mary always did, hold the business in our hearts until it is truly revealed.

I learned while sharing the Word the Rocky Mountains, that there are lessons in the stars, not astrology as known today, the way it is explained in the Word, for showing seasons and signs.

There is a star formation called the dragon that extends around the globe practically, and it faces Casiopea, the seated woman. Does this not remind you of the words of Revelation? I am told, though I will not say I know this, that American Indians knew of a Savior to be taught of in their , then, future.

God has provided for all mankind, so never doubt that all are equally drawn to Jesus Christ, but God's ways are not yours or min.

God is good all of the time. God bless you now and always in Jesus Christ, and always know that God is good and just, amen
 
C

Chuckt

Guest
#18
#18
Rphardy said:
I'm a parent. No matter what my children do or who they turn out to be I will always accept them. I will always have a place for them in my heart. I will never push them away. But it's my understanding that god does push people away for not being like him. I don't get this either. This can't be right. It makes me feel like I'm actually a better person (or soul, or whatever, you get the drift) than god himself. Yet this can't be right. So what is it?
Click to expand...
And there are parents who turn their children in when they break the law as there are children who turn their parents in when they break the law.

Why do they do that? Because they believe that there is a right and wrong and they believe that is what we are supposed to do. We're responsible to obey the law.


We had two computers taken over by viruses so our company pays an I.T. guy and sometimes the computers don't come back because of their policies. As much as I love computers, I won't use a computer that is taken over by a virus and the longer you leave it turned on, the more damage it does to the files.

So yes, if your son was committing crimes, you would stand by him. But at what point paying for court costs and lawyer costs would it bankrupt you and would you have to sell your house and live in the street because you keep paying for their crimes?

At some point, what we believe becomes destructive and for whatever reason, people don't change just because there is a savior and those people will fight against God the same way I see atheists fight against God. It isn't because they claim that God doesn't exist but it is because God kicked man out of the garden and man has been running ever since. It is because of this hatred that man suppresses the knowledge of God.
 
R

RobbyEarl

Guest
#19
#19
Chuckt said:
And there are parents who turn their children in when they break the law as there are children who turn their parents in when they break the law.

Why do they do that? Because they believe that there is a right and wrong and they believe that is what we are supposed to do. We're responsible to obey the law.


We had two computers taken over by viruses so our company pays an I.T. guy and sometimes the computers don't come back because of their policies. As much as I love computers, I won't use a computer that is taken over by a virus and the longer you leave it turned on, the more damage it does to the files.

So yes, if your son was committing crimes, you would stand by him. But at what point paying for court costs and lawyer costs would it bankrupt you and would you have to sell your house and live in the street because you keep paying for their crimes?

At some point, what we believe becomes destructive and for whatever reason, people don't change just because there is a savior and those people will fight against God the same way I see atheists fight against God. It isn't because they claim that God doesn't exist but it is because God kicked man out of the garden and man has been running ever since. It is because of this hatred that man suppresses the knowledge of God.
Click to expand...

IDK, God sent His Son to die for us so I can't concur with your discourse.
 
duewell

duewell

Senior Member
#20
Mar 5, 2011
350
9
18
#20
Rphardy said:
I asked this question to a good friend who answered in a way I don't get.

"If the only way to get to heaven is to accept Jesus into your heart, what happened to the people who had no clue he even ever existed?"

The answer "They should have known he existed because of existence itself"

OK... please explain. So being raised an Indian in the 1700-1800's meant you were taught to believe in other gods, or whatever. Being taught the wrong way was not your fault. So now god says I'm sorry but you are going to hell because you were taught wrong. And Oh - by the way - I knew it would happen to you because that was my plan for you. Since, after all, I have a plan for everyone.

So now god himself actually planned for people to go to hell. I brought this up and all I got was "I don't make the rules, they are what they are"

I'm a parent. No matter what my children do or who they turn out to be I will always accept them. I will always have a place for them in my heart. I will never push them away. But it's my understanding that god does push people away for not being like him. I don't get this either. This can't be right. It makes me feel like I'm actually a better person (or soul, or whatever, you get the drift) than god himself. Yet this can't be right. So what is it?
Click to expand...

have you heard the good news about Jesus?
my answer wont be accepted by many of the lawyers in Christianity but it is the answer i give. what Jesus did on the cross goes beyond our understanding of space and time being linear. those that are crucified with Christ are adopted children of God and co-heirs with Jesus. that which was done by Jesus then, is done by Jesus now, through them that follow him. past present future concentrated to a single instant with Jesus. if the plan was to damn people to hell without a possibility of redemption then why was there any need for Jesus to come down here at all.

God doesn't want to push you away but God will respect your choice to leave his house. the prodigal son is a great example. for those that never even knew they had a father to return to will find that Jesus has gone to prepare a room in his fathers house for them.

the best questions asked by non believers show how their compassion for others is the reason why they cannot believe in God. if their compassion for others is in fact an honest one, then i have one question

have you heard the good news about Jesus?

duewell
mark 4 v11-13
 
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