Salvation and Covenants

wattie · Apr 20, 2016

I have often heard christians talk of the Old Testament and then say something along the lines of

'people were saved by works then... they are saved by grace thru faith now'

or

'people had no indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the OT.. they have the indwelling now'

Well.. I want to say that salvation has been the same way Old Testament and New Testament.

Look at Abraham, David and Job.. they believed in a Redeemer.. in Jesus. They were justified by grace.. thru faith in Jesus.

Abraham was justified by faith before he offered his son Isaac on the altar.

David believed in a Redeemer who cleanses him from his sins. Job believed in a redeemer who he would be with when he died.

So the difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament isn't the way of salvation. That has always been by grace thru faith in Jesus.

The difference is the way God worked with people in His systems of service toward Him.

OT.. was through the Levital and Mosiac Laws.. sacrifices of animals.. etc.. with the place of worship as the Jewish temple and synagogue.

Eternal salvation being the same though.. with people looking FORWARD to Jesus' coming.

NT.. Jesus establishes His churches thru the Holy Spirit. The Comforter is given in His churches. The New Covenant.. through the system of faith in His churches. THE faith.

The OT system of service thru mosaic and levitical laws did not work. People failed in it. God then changed from that to the New Testament system of churches.

So.. don't mix these up people!

Eternal salvation is seperate from the mode of service. The mode of service to Jesus has changed.. OT covenant to NT covenant.. but salvation has not!

Of course there are parts from the OT that have carried thru.. because some of the promises from God in the OT continue thru the NT.. eg.. the ten commandments.

These commandments were the basis for service in the OT and are the basis for service in the NT.

A key thing here-- is the Holy Spirit's work. In the OT.. when the Holy Spirit was 'upon' people.. that isn't usually speaking about eternal salvation being given.. but the Holy Spirit empowering kings and others to do His work.

The Holy Spirit in the NT also is 'upon' and 'in the midst' and 'indwelling'

Upon-- Holy Spirit empowering churches. In the midst-- Holy Spirit walking among His churches as the Comforter in His churches. Indwelling-- personal indwelling of the person's soul when people are given eternal salvation.

It's important to get these distinctions. A group of believers being empowered.. isn't salvation being given. An individual believing in Jesus and being indwelled is.

DP · Apr 20, 2016

Not really how to look at it.

The old covenant and the law (which none could be perfect in) was to point the Way of Christ Jesus Who would come to die on the cross and defeat the devil and death for us. Thus the old covenant was never meant to save, but to condemn. Through the Levitical system God simply gave them a means of atonement so they would not all perish by the law which Apostle Paul called a schoolmaster in Galatians.

It's true The Gospel of Jesus Christ was known about we know at least from the days of Enoch, the seventh from Adam. Though it's not written, I believe all the OT Patriarchs met Jesus in their day as the Angel of The LORD, and He showed them His Salvation by Faith that would come.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Apr 20, 2016

Good OP. A lot of thought provoking remarks.

FreeNChrist · Apr 20, 2016

wattie said:

I have often heard christians talk of the Old Testament and then say something along the lines of

'people were saved by works then... they are saved by grace thru faith now'

or

'people had no indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the OT.. they have the indwelling now'

Well.. I want to say that salvation has been the same way Old Testament and New Testament.

Look at Abraham, David and Job.. they believed in a Redeemer.. in Jesus. They were justified by grace.. thru faith in Jesus.

Abraham was justified by faith before he offered his son Isaac on the altar.

David believed in a Redeemer who cleanses him from his sins. Job believed in a redeemer who he would be with when he died.

So the difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament isn't the way of salvation. That has always been by grace thru faith in Jesus.

The difference is the way God worked with people in His systems of service toward Him.

OT.. was through the Levital and Mosiac Laws.. sacrifices of animals.. etc.. with the place of worship as the Jewish temple and synagogue.

Eternal salvation being the same though.. with people looking FORWARD to Jesus' coming.

NT.. Jesus establishes His churches thru the Holy Spirit. The Comforter is given in His churches. The New Covenant.. through the system of faith in His churches. THE faith.

The OT system of service thru mosaic and levitical laws did not work. People failed in it. God then changed from that to the New Testament system of churches.

So.. don't mix these up people!

Eternal salvation is seperate from the mode of service. The mode of service to Jesus has changed.. OT covenant to NT covenant.. but salvation has not!

Of course there are parts from the OT that have carried thru.. because some of the promises from God in the OT continue thru the NT.. eg.. the ten commandments.

These commandments were the basis for service in the OT and are the basis for service in the NT.

A key thing here-- is the Holy Spirit's work. In the OT.. when the Holy Spirit was 'upon' people.. that isn't usually speaking about eternal salvation being given.. but the Holy Spirit empowering kings and others to do His work.

The Holy Spirit in the NT also is 'upon' and 'in the midst' and 'indwelling'

Upon-- Holy Spirit empowering churches. In the midst-- Holy Spirit walking among His churches as the Comforter in His churches. Indwelling-- personal indwelling of the person's soul when people are given eternal salvation.

It's important to get these distinctions. A group of believers being empowered.. isn't salvation being given. An individual believing in Jesus and being indwelled is.

What is "a system of churches"?

wattie · Apr 20, 2016

FreeNChrist said:

In the New Testament, Jesus has set up His churches as mode of service.. bible study.. sharing faith.. fellowship with believers etc etc.. is in His churches. The Holy Spirit also being 'in the midst' of each of these churches as the Comforter guiding a local church family.

So the 'system of churches'.. and I DONT mean buildings. I mean the local congregations that meet as each church.

ladylynn · Apr 21, 2016

wattie said:

This is a good topic wattie and one I've been thinking and reading about lately. There is much to say but at this time I'm not ready to engage the topic tonight. But the basis of our service to God is faith., not the 10 commandments.

These commandments were the basis for service in the OT and are the basis for service in the NT.

There are major differences on the requirements of the law vs the new covenant of grace. So much so that until Jesus actually went to the cross, those who died believing in Him before that, were awaiting Him in paradise (Luke 23:43; 2 Cor.12:4)

Abraham's bosom is figurative speech for paradise. in Hades., The unseen world in general but specifically here the abode of the (unsaved dead) between death and judgment at the great white throne (Rev.20:11-15) (commentary)

When we die (in this new covenant of grace) we go directly to see God because we have Christ's righteousness on us now. Those saints in the old covenant were still waiting. Jesus work was not finished yet until He died and said "It is finished" He lead those old testament saints out (captivity captive)

No more sacrifice for sin. We are to have FAITH IN the finished work Jesus did for us. Not by our works or the blood sacrifices.... but by His finished work on the cross. No more schoolmaster, we have the Holy Spirit to teach us and guide us and direct us into all truth.

wattie · Apr 21, 2016

ladylynn said:

I agree with most of what you are saying here

The OT believers were in Abrahams Bosom as you say.. when they died.. looking forward to the finished work.

I also agree about the law being a school master to bring people to Christ.. not justified by it.

I am trying to say.. that the OT and NT were covenants.. systems of service.. but not the means of receiving eternal life.

That is really what I am meaning.

I don't agree with christians who will say no one was saved until the NT or the Holy Spirit wasn't saving anyone till the NT..

the 'Holy Spirit not yet being given'.. is not about eternal salvation.. but the Holy Spirit empowering and being 'in the midst' of His church.

The Holy Spirit in the OT hadn't come as He did in Acts as the Comforter to administer His churches.

FreeNChrist · Apr 21, 2016

wattie said:

In the New Testament, Jesus has set up His churches as mode of service.. bible study.. sharing faith.. fellowship with believers etc etc.. is in His churches. The Holy Spirit also being 'in the midst' of each of these churches as the Comforter guiding a local church family.

So the 'system of churches'.. and I DONT mean buildings. I mean the local congregations that meet as each church.

Guess I missed that in the NT. Could you point me to those passages?

wattie · Apr 21, 2016

FreeNChrist said:

Acts 2- the Holy Spirit empowers the congregation at Jerusalem. The Comforter has come as the administrator of His local church. 'The sound of a rushing mighty wind..' 'The tongues of fire' These a references to the Holy Spirit starting His ministry with His churches.

The synagogue no longer being the place of worship. Gentiles are now in the service of God.

Going thru Acts further.. you see Paul convincing Jews telling them to turn to Jesus.. that Jesus is the Messiah. Preaching in synagogues.

(Act 9:17) And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

(Act 9:18) And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

(Act 9:19) And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.

(Act 9:20) And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

(Act 9:21) But all that heard him were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests?

(Act 9:22) But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ.

The disciples and apostles were also dispersed with the church at Jerusalem dispersing and further churches are founded.

At Ephesus..at Antioch.. Thessalonica.. Corinth.. Phillipi etc..

Each church being charged with carrying the Great Commission and Commandment

The first congregation tho.. being Jesus and His disciples

* They had Jesus as the Head
* They preached to others
* They had the Lords Supper
* They met regularly (even tho they had no roof over their head most of the time)
* They were saved by grace thru faith in Jesus (although not Judas)
* They baptised by full immersion, of already saved people

But anyway.. more references to churches..

Act_9:31 Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.

Rom_16:16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.

Remember these are not buildings.. but local bodies of saved, baptised believers..

1Co_7:17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

1Co_16:19 The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

2Co_8:23 Whether any do enquire of Titus, he is my partner and fellowhelper concerning you: or our brethren be enquired of, they are the messengers of the churches, and the glory of Christ.

Gal_1:2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

2Th_1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

Rev_1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

So there it is.. NT system of churches.. THE faith.

FreeNChrist · Apr 21, 2016

wattie said:

Acts 2- the Holy Spirit empowers the congregation at Jerusalem. The Comforter has come as the administrator of His local church. 'The sound of a rushing mighty wind..' 'The tongues of fire' These a references to the Holy Spirit starting His ministry with His churches.

The synagogue no longer being the place of worship. Gentiles are now in the service of God.

Going thru Acts further.. you see Paul convincing Jews telling them to turn to Jesus.. that Jesus is the Messiah. Preaching in synagogues.

(Act 9:17) And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

(Act 9:18) And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

(Act 9:19) And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.

(Act 9:20) And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

(Act 9:21) But all that heard him were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests?

(Act 9:22) But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ.

The disciples and apostles were also dispersed with the church at Jerusalem dispersing and further churches are founded.

At Ephesus..at Antioch.. Thessalonica.. Corinth.. Phillipi etc..

Each church being charged with carrying the Great Commission and Commandment

The first congregation tho.. being Jesus and His disciples

* They had Jesus as the Head
* They preached to others
* They had the Lords Supper
* They met regularly (even tho they had no roof over their head most of the time)
* They were saved by grace thru faith in Jesus (although not Judas)
* They baptised by full immersion, of already saved people

But anyway.. more references to churches..

Act_9:31 Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.

Rom_16:16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.

Remember these are not buildings.. but local bodies of saved, baptised believers..

1Co_7:17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

1Co_16:19 The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

2Co_8:23 Whether any do enquire of Titus, he is my partner and fellowhelper concerning you: or our brethren be enquired of, they are the messengers of the churches, and the glory of Christ.

Gal_1:2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

2Th_1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

Rev_1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

So there it is.. NT system of churches.. THE faith.

Obviously there were churches established in NT times. It is this "system of churches" thing that I don't get.

wattie · Apr 21, 2016

FreeNChrist said:

I guess what I mean is.. being in one of God's churches doing the fellowship, bible study, etc.. is 'the system of faith'
'system of churches'

System of faith would be more accurate.

Service in one of God's churches is primarily how THE faith works. THE faith of Christ.

RachelBibleStudent · Apr 21, 2016

i totally agree...salvation by grace is seen all through the old testament...

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Salvation and Covenants

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