God's Will does not always happen

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jsr1221

Senior Member
Jul 7, 2013
4,265
77
48
#1
I came across an article that talked about how Christians nowadays always try to use God for each reasoning. It ultimately talked about how the typical Christian believes God is behind everything and everything happens for a reason. The author said we as the church needed to stop this thinking, because everything doesn't happen for a reason. After giving it thought, I agree. Let me give an example.

A situation generally has two outcomes. How can God be behind every single outcome when those outcomes contradict each other? Opposite outcomes contradict each other, and if we say God's Will is behind everything and everything happens for a reason, then we're essentially saying God is a contradiction. Because one outcome can be positive and the other would be negative. So why would God have both a positive and negative (sinful) outcome for His will, when He is against sin? Everything doesn't happen for a reason, and not everything is according to His Will. He can use any situation for His glory, but that doesn't mean that situation was His Will. We do, after all, have free will.
 

jsr1221

Senior Member
Jul 7, 2013
4,265
77
48
#2
In reference to this, I then ask you all a question. By our own nature, can we ruin God's Will for us? I say yes and I simply can refer to Jonah and the whale. Jonah wouldn't listen to God so he got swallowed by a whale. Does God's Will for a person include that person not wanting to listen to God and instead following his or her own path?
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
113
#3
Maybe the curse is leaving you to your free will.

Does the Lord leave some to their own free will, and therefore their curse?

I don't know, maybe.

I've never been totally free to commit any atrocity I wanted to. I've always been at least a little bit restrained. And now alot restrained.

The probelm that arises is that you would have to know Gods Will before you were able to say Gods Will isn't done. God hardened pharoahs heart so that pharoah wouldn't free the hebrews. You could say that was contradicting Gods Will. But ultimately, no...
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
6,639
1,392
113
#4
I don't think that God necessarily "makes the call" in EVERY situation. He knows what is going to happen, but most times He lets our human nature take its course.
I do believe that He does intervene at our request, and I believe that every request is heard, and answered.. it's just that the answer is not always what we ask for.

I also firmly believe that for us, as believers, everything that happens is for our good, as scripture says. I've seen that in my own life... things that happen that I simply don't understand, and get mad at God about, then years later look back and go.... "OH.... THAT'S why that happened that way"....

sometimes it takes more faith than I think I have to wait for the answer, though...
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
6,639
1,392
113
#5
In reference to this, I then ask you all a question. By our own nature, can we ruin God's Will for us? I say yes and I simply can refer to Jonah and the whale. Jonah wouldn't listen to God so he got swallowed by a whale. Does God's Will for a person include that person not wanting to listen to God and instead following his or her own path?
Yes, I absolutely believe that is true.... sort of a "tough love" scenario. Remember the parable of the prodigal son? He certainly didn't follow the path HIS father wanted him to take... but his father didn't stop him, either.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#6
I came across an article that talked about how Christians nowadays always try to use God for each reasoning. It ultimately talked about how the typical Christian believes God is behind everything and everything happens for a reason. The author said we as the church needed to stop this thinking, because everything doesn't happen for a reason. After giving it thought, I agree. Let me give an example.

A situation generally has two outcomes. How can God be behind every single outcome when those outcomes contradict each other? Opposite outcomes contradict each other, and if we say God's Will is behind everything and everything happens for a reason, then we're essentially saying God is a contradiction. Because one outcome can be positive and the other would be negative. So why would God have both a positive and negative (sinful) outcome for His will, when He is against sin? Everything doesn't happen for a reason, and not everything is according to His Will. He can use any situation for His glory, but that doesn't mean that situation was His Will. We do, after all, have free will.
God's will cannot be thwarted by our choices specifically because it is His will that we be free to freely choose. Whether we choose rightly or wrongly, either way, God's will is done.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#7
I came across an article that talked about how Christians nowadays always try to use God for each reasoning. It ultimately talked about how the typical Christian believes God is behind everything and everything happens for a reason. The author said we as the church needed to stop this thinking, because everything doesn't happen for a reason. After giving it thought, I agree. Let me give an example.

A situation generally has two outcomes. How can God be behind every single outcome when those outcomes contradict each other? Opposite outcomes contradict each other, and if we say God's Will is behind everything and everything happens for a reason, then we're essentially saying God is a contradiction. Because one outcome can be positive and the other would be negative. So why would God have both a positive and negative (sinful) outcome for His will, when He is against sin? Everything doesn't happen for a reason, and not everything is according to His Will. He can use any situation for His glory, but that doesn't mean that situation was His Will. We do, after all, have free will.
Sorry, everything really does happen for a reason and the reason IS God. Ask Job and Jonah, instead of reading articles from someone who invents a god he can take.

And free-will is a modern day construct. Dump that and it makes more sense. Everything happens for a reason -- God! Not "free-will god," who is pretty much however you feel at any given moment.

Now feel free to go on and on and on about what you believe. I'm sure many others will join in and this becomes yet another nonsense post on this forum. If that happens, that too is God's will. BUT God willed Pharaoh to do everything Pharaoh did while letting Pharaoh call the shots, so God's reasoning isn't always for the good of all people. Just for the good of his people.

Romans 8:28 still applies today.
28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,617
3,530
113
#8
Romans 12:2, "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

I believe God has a good will for your life, an acceptable will for your life, and a perfect will for your life. The perfect will for a believers life is to be obedient in all things and not sin.

Sin is not God's will. When one sins, then it is God's will that we suffer consequences for our sin, maybe have eternal rewards taken away, and be corrected to get back in God's perfect will. All of our choices may not be the perfect will of God, but God will use them for our good to ultimately bring us back to Him.

The good will for ones life is salvation. God is not willing that any should perish.
 

jsr1221

Senior Member
Jul 7, 2013
4,265
77
48
#9
Sorry, everything really does happen for a reason and the reason IS God. Ask Job and Jonah, instead of reading articles from someone who invents a god he can take.

And free-will is a modern day construct. Dump that and it makes more sense. Everything happens for a reason -- God! Not "free-will god," who is pretty much however you feel at any given moment.

Now feel free to go on and on and on about what you believe. I'm sure many others will join in and this becomes yet another nonsense post on this forum. If that happens, that too is God's will. BUT God willed Pharaoh to do everything Pharaoh did while letting Pharaoh call the shots, so God's reasoning isn't always for the good of all people. Just for the good of his people.

Romans 8:28 still applies today.
28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
I have work this morning and could have chose to hit my alarm and gone right back to sleep. Would that have been God's Will for me to blow off my boss and job? I also have a meeting after work with a pastor. Would it be God's Will for me to blow off the pastor? I wholeheartedly agree that God can and does use each situation, but that's different than using His Will. Let's take this into every day tasks such as eating and using the bathroom. We know what happens when we don't do those things. So when we don't, are those part of God's Will as well? I think saying everything happens for a reason and every little thing is His Will can be a slippery slope. Hence, refusing to eat or go to the bathroom when needed.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,819
25,996
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#10
Good morning :) Hey jsr, this is a very good question, and it is always interesting reading what people think about free will as if they have none and are simply puppets doing things because God wills it. Of course saying everything is done according to the will of God would be to say that every evil act committed by every fallen human being is something that God willed to happen, and I have to agree with you that that just doesn't make sense to say it is so, and would seem to make God out to be some kind of monster. When it is cited that God hardened pharaoh's heart without also mentioning that pharaoh hardened his own heart many times first, you can be sure the whole story is not being told. It may be helpful for you to think of God's will as being moral, permissive, and sovereign. His moral will is seen in His character and the commands He desires us to follow, in order for us to to live a good life. His permissive will allows us to choose whether to follow our own self willed choices or to submit to His will... choose this day whom you will serve. It is true that nothing happens beyond His control and that He works all things to the good of those who love Him, and He knows the end from the beginning... but it is His permissive will that allows the world to do the things that may oppose His will.
 
S

sparkman

Guest
#11
I came across an article that talked about how Christians nowadays always try to use God for each reasoning. It ultimately talked about how the typical Christian believes God is behind everything and everything happens for a reason. The author said we as the church needed to stop this thinking, because everything doesn't happen for a reason. After giving it thought, I agree. Let me give an example.

A situation generally has two outcomes. How can God be behind every single outcome when those outcomes contradict each other? Opposite outcomes contradict each other, and if we say God's Will is behind everything and everything happens for a reason, then we're essentially saying God is a contradiction. Because one outcome can be positive and the other would be negative. So why would God have both a positive and negative (sinful) outcome for His will, when He is against sin? Everything doesn't happen for a reason, and not everything is according to His Will. He can use any situation for His glory, but that doesn't mean that situation was His Will. We do, after all, have free will.
God's will is a complex topic. There are three different aspects to Gods will. This article covers them well.

One thing is for sure, though...God is sovereign, omniscient and omnipotent, and has exhaustive foreknowledge (unlike the futile god of the open theists). There is nothing that He does not know, either past, present, and future and if he does not cause something to happen, he definitely allows it. I would say that all things occur according to his passive or active decree. Whether he specifically causes them to happen is irrelevant in matters of small importance. Do I think he decided what pair of briefs I wore this morning? No.. :) He is also not the author of sin, but He allowed it for a purpose..I think part of the purpose is to show us that rejecting Him ultimately leads to nothing but physical, mental and spiritual suffering. In addition, the fact that sin exists exposes us to his attributes of justness, and hopefully mercy if one repents and accepts Jesus Christ and his perfect sacrifice.

By the way, I don't think anyone except hyper-Calvinists deny free will. Calvinists will deny autonomous free will. Our free will is always subject to God's free will. God's will trumps ours every time. We are like fish that swim in a pond. We can swim in the pond all we want, but we can't jump out of the pond and decide we are going to live there.

You may also want to study the concept of compatibilism in relation to this topic. Man's free will and God's sovereignty are like two rails on a railroad. They may appear to be separate and parallel but they converge at some point, though.

Good examples of this relate to Joseph and his brothers and the selling of him into captivity. The brothers sold him into slavery due to their wickedness, but God planned it all along to preserve the nation of Israel through a famine. Another example is the use of God by the Assyrians to punish Israel (see Isaiah 10), yet they did it out of their own wickedness and he punished them for it. Yet another one is the use of wicked men to crucify Christ, yet it was foreordained from the foundation of the earth.

I've seen Pelagian/Finneyists or hyper-Arminians try to claim that the Crucifixion was a random act in order get past this reality but their position is obviously unbiblical. For some reason, some of those who believe in libertarian free will can simply not get past acknowledging that God's will trumps theirs every time, in the sense of his sovereign or decretive will.

Question: "What is the difference between God's sovereign will and God's perfect will?"

Answer:
When speaking of God’s will, many people see three different aspects of it in the Bible. The first aspect is known as God’s decretive, sovereign, or hidden will. This is God’s "ultimate" will. This facet of God’s will comes out of the recognition of God’s sovereignty and the other aspects of God’s nature. This expression of God’s will focuses on the fact that God sovereignly ordains everything that comes to pass. In other words, there is nothing that happens that is outside of God’s sovereign will. This aspect of God’s will is seen in verses like Ephesians 1:11, where we learn that God is the one “who works all things according to the counsel of His will,” and Job 42:2, "I know that You can do everything, And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.” This view of God’s will is based on the fact that, because God is sovereign, His will can never be frustrated. Nothing happens that is beyond His control.

This understanding of His sovereign will does not imply that God causes everything to happen. Rather, it acknowledges that, because He is sovereign, He must at least permit or allow whatever happens to happen. This aspect of God’s will acknowledges that, even when God passively permits things to happen, He must choose to permit them, because He always has the power and right to intervene. God can always decide to either permit or stop the actions and events of this world. Therefore, as He allows things to happen, He has “willed” them in this sense of the word.

While God’s sovereign will is often hidden from us until after it comes to pass, there is another aspect of His will that is plain to us: His preceptive or revealed will. As the name implies, this facet of God’s will means that God has chosen to reveal some of His will in the Bible. The preceptive will of God is God’s declared will concerning what we should or should not do. For example, because of the revealed will of God, we can know that it is God’s will that we do not steal, that we love our enemies, that we repent of our sins, and that we be holy as He is holy. This expression of God’s will is revealed both in His Word and in our conscience, through which God has written His moral law upon the hearts of all men. The laws of God, whether found in Scripture or in our hearts, are binding upon us. We are accountable when we disobey them.

Understanding this aspect of God’s will acknowledges that while we have the power and ability to disobey God’s commands, we do not have the right to do so. Therefore, there is no excuse for our sin, and we cannot claim that by choosing to sin we are simply fulfilling God’s sovereign decree or will. Judas was fulfilling God’s sovereign will in betraying Christ, just as the Romans who crucified Him were. That does not justify their sins. They were no less evil or treacherous, and they were held accountable for their rejection of Christ (Acts 4:27-28). Even though in His sovereign will God allows or permits sin to happen, we are still accountable to Him for that sin.

The third aspect of God’s will that we see in the Bible is God’s permissive or perfect will. This facet of God’s will describes God’s attitude and defines what is pleasing to Him. For example, while it is clear that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, it is also clear that He wills or decrees their death. This expression of God’s will is revealed in the many verses of Scripture which indicate what God does and does not take pleasure in. For example, in 1 Timothy 2:4 we see that God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth,” yet we know that God’s sovereign will is that “no one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day” (John 6:44).

If we are not careful, we can easily become preoccupied or even obsessed with finding the “will” of God for our lives. However, if the will we are seeking is His secret, hidden, or decretive will, we are on a foolish quest. God has not chosen to reveal that aspect of His will to us. What we should seek to know is the perceptive or revealed will of God. The true mark of spirituality is when we desire to know and live according to the will of God as revealed in Scripture, and that can be summarized as “be holy for I am Holy” (1 Peter 1:15-16). Our responsibility is to obey the revealed will of God and not to speculate on what His hidden will for us might be. While we should seek to be “led by the Holy Spirit,” we must never forget that the Holy Spirit is primarily leading us to righteousness and to being conformed into the image of Christ so that our lives will glorify God. God calls us to live our lives by every word that proceeds from His mouth.

Living according to His revealed will should be the chief aim or purpose of our lives. Romans 12:1-2 summarizes this truth, as we are called to present our “bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.” To know the will of God, we should immerse ourselves in the written Word of God, saturating our minds with it, and praying that the Holy Spirit will transform us through the renewing of our minds, so that the result is what is good, acceptable and perfect—the will of God.

Source:

What is the difference between God's sovereign will and God's perfect will?
 
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ember

Guest
#12
God's will is always first and foremost, to obey Him...surrender your life to Him

do you realize that all you actually have to offer God IS your life? the one He gave you in the first place

How do we obey Him? We stick our noses into His Word and once we have that under the belt, we will resurface with discernment and knowledge and wisdom

I promise you that His will, becomes MUCH clearer after that...temptations stand out for what they are ... no longer camouflaged in weak Christianity that does not even know what all it believes

Anyone seeking God's will, should first of all acquaint themself with HIS ALREADY REVEALED WILL ... the Bible

Study to show yourself approved to God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. II Timothy 2:15

In other words, don't skip, hop and jump to secure verses that back up what you believe...search the scriptures to SEE what you SHOULD believe....your mind will be improved and you will know what Gods' will is...His will is the same for every single one of us

Sure...you betcha He has personalized stuff in the wings too, but so many people go waaaay off track believing all kinds of nonsense because they do not know HIM in what HE has ALREADY revealed
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
3,729
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#13
God’s will for us is good and perfect, but it is up to us if we stay in his will or not. He does not make us follow his will for our life. I have went against God’s will in my life and chose things that were not according to his will for my life. I have also been chastised and brought down for that. I think my life is different today than what it should have been due to the fact that I did not follow God’s will.

Now I am not saying that God hasn’t blessed me since I repented and began trying to follow his will for my life. I am just saying we shape our own lives by choosing either to follow God’s will or not. If we marry someone, take a job, or choose any other thing by not following God’s will, then are we not shaping our own lives according to our own will.

And we know every action has consequences. We can choose to follow God’s will for the good or we can follow our own will. But what happens when we choose to follow our own will was not God’s plan for us. Yet, he can still help us and bless us if we repent and put him first in our lives.
 
E

ember

Guest
#14
God’s will for us is good and perfect, but it is up to us if we stay in his will or not. He does not make us follow his will for our life. I have went against God’s will in my life and chose things that were not according to his will for my life. I have also been chastised and brought down for that. I think my life is different today than what it should have been due to the fact that I did not follow God’s will.

Now I am not saying that God hasn’t blessed me since I repented and began trying to follow his will for my life. I am just saying we shape our own lives by choosing either to follow God’s will or not. If we marry someone, take a job, or choose any other thing by not following God’s will, then are we not shaping our own lives according to our own will.

And we know every action has consequences. We can choose to follow God’s will for the good or we can follow our own will. But what happens when we choose to follow our own will was not God’s plan for us. Yet, he can still help us and bless us if we repent and put him first in our lives.
I concur

I could have written this post myself
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,819
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#15
Now I am not saying that God hasn’t blessed me since I repented and began trying to follow his will for my life. I am just saying we shape our own lives by choosing either to follow God’s will or not. If we marry someone, take a job, or choose any other thing by not following God’s will, then are we not shaping our own lives according to our own will.
This looks like a contradictory statement, with one too many "not"s. ;)
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
3,729
1,912
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#16
I concur

I could have written this post myself
Your previous post was excellent at showing others how to learn God's will so that we can follow it. I think we all sometimes needed to be reminded of that. I really enjoyed your post and think I am going to save it for a reminder to myself and also to share with some friends, if that is ok with you.
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
3,729
1,912
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#17
This looks like a contradictory statement, with one too many "not"s. ;)
LOL.....I might need to quit using "not" to ask a question...So please disregard the not in that statement...LOL
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,819
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#18
LOL.....I might need to quit using "not" to ask a question...So please disregard the not in that statement...LOL
Oh, I see, as a question it does make sense. No question mark threw me off. My apologies! :)
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
3,729
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#19
Oh, I see, as a question it does make sense. No question mark threw me off. My apologies! :)
Sorry, I'm not the best writer on here and I get in a hurry and make a lot of mistakes...LOL
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,819
25,996
113
#20
Sorry, I'm not the best writer on here and I get in a hurry and make a lot of mistakes...LOL
No worries! We all make mistakes ;) I am glad we cleared that up! :)