Is there a such thing as a good 'witch' or 'wizard'?

[thefightinglamb]

I think everyone who condemns halloween and Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings, ultimately comes to the conclusion that witches and wizards are all wicked--which is true...

Halloween is a little more difficult to justify on this logic as people sometimes actually mean to dress up as or pretend to be evil witches.

But if you look at at Gandalf in the Lord of the Rings...it is very hard to conclude he is evil...which leads to the conclusion that perhaps he is not a wizard at all? I really don't know what magic he really does in the Lord of the Rings...He has fireworks--which the hobbits think are magical...he has light, and the ability to use light to defend himself...could not any Christian be considered a 'wizard' under the same logic?

Harry Potter, as I said before, I am not too familiar with, though I watched like one or two of the movies...and in the movies, it seems like Harry Potter is fighting evil, so is he really truly a witch--knowing that witches must be evil?

Just using a scripture as Jesus says, "How can a demon cast out a demon, and if satan is dividing against himself he cannot stand for his end has come." This immediately made me think of Gandalf drawing out the demon from the king's body...which is something else he could do...is this any worse or better than Moses parting the waters with his staff? If Gandalf was evil he couldn't draw out the evil spirit...

Perhaps it is all with these terms, 'witch and wizard' that the english form of the Bible uses to describe sorcery...

It is pretty absurd to suggest Gandalf is evil; use the Lord's other explanation that you will know someone by their fruits--look at his actions and their fruits--it is not for evil that he travels/helps people...or that he wishes to get rid of the evil ring, even when offered it he refuses saying "I would use it from a desire to do good, but through me it would wield a power I could not control."

The Lord's light to Everyone

tony

nah not one is good not ONE. I used to live with one and she was unpleasant and MAD

If Gandalf was evil he couldn't draw out the evil spirit...

He can do anything he wants in a fictional story! But seriously, the difference between Moses and Gandalf is context. We clearly know the source of Mose's "magic" as it's spelled out in the bible. In the case of Gandalf, however, we can only try to guess the intent of the author (even though said author claims to be a Christian, which he may very well be). The story line sure SEEMS to mirror a Chritian's struggle with good and evil. Then again Bernie Madoff sure seemed like a reputable stock broker.

[Abing]

halloween. HONESTLY, well, i was shocked to see that there really are 'christians' who participate in it. i mean, *no offense*, coz here where i live, thats just not common for christian churches

[Thaddaeus]

Originally Posted by thefightinglamb

I think everyone who condemns halloween and Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings, ultimately comes to the conclusion that witches and wizards are all wicked--which is true...

Halloween is a little more difficult to justify on this logic as people sometimes actually mean to dress up as or pretend to be evil witches.

But if you look at at Gandalf in the Lord of the Rings...it is very hard to conclude he is evil...which leads to the conclusion that perhaps he is not a wizard at all? I really don't know what magic he really does in the Lord of the Rings...He has fireworks--which the hobbits think are magical...he has light, and the ability to use light to defend himself...could not any Christian be considered a 'wizard' under the same logic?

Harry Potter, as I said before, I am not too familiar with, though I watched like one or two of the movies...and in the movies, it seems like Harry Potter is fighting evil, so is he really truly a witch--knowing that witches must be evil?

Just using a scripture as Jesus says, "How can a demon cast out a demon, and if satan is dividing against himself he cannot stand for his end has come." This immediately made me think of Gandalf drawing out the demon from the king's body...which is something else he could do...is this any worse or better than Moses parting the waters with his staff? If Gandalf was evil he couldn't draw out the evil spirit...

Perhaps it is all with these terms, 'witch and wizard' that the english form of the Bible uses to describe sorcery...

It is pretty absurd to suggest Gandalf is evil; use the Lord's other explanation that you will know someone by their fruits--look at his actions and their fruits--it is not for evil that he travels/helps people...or that he wishes to get rid of the evil ring, even when offered it he refuses saying "I would use it from a desire to do good, but through me it would wield a power I could not control."

The Lord's light to Everyone

tony

It is pretty absurd to suggest Gandalf is evil;


WAKE up DUDE!!!!!! GANDAFF IS NOT REAL.
this is the very reason we shouldn't mess with witch craft the Bible and Gandaff being compared to each other as both truth . Father forgive us for we know not what we do


NO there is no good witches, or wizards
Ga 5:19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,Ga 5:20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,Ga 5:21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.Ga 5:22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,Ga 5:23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.Ga 5:24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

The bible is pretty clear about witchcraft and the eternal outcome of those those who engage in the practice.

Growing up I knew a couple of people, one of which was a relative, who were heavy into spells and witchcraft in high school. I don't recall any of their spells actually working however, a year or so after graduation my relative was exorcized after running into the woods with her new born child and butcher knife.
While I'm not exactly sure what went on at that time, what I can tell you is that afterward she gave her life to Christ and has been a devote christian and a very good mother ever since.

nope, no such thing

[thefightinglamb]

As I said before, I do believe that there is "no such thing as a good witch or wizard."

Hence, using logic, you have to conclude that if an author makes a good witch or wizard out of his imagination it it not real--fantasy...

The reason I had to try to show Gandalf as a character was not evil is that, I would assume he is the reason that a lot of people would conclude all of The Lord of the Rings is evil...there are a few other wizards in the book, I believe 'someone the brown' heals plants--and thus is considered a wizard...

I have a question. Thus who reject wizards (witches I think are always pretty sketchy) as heros or helpers in fantasy novels, do you reject just them on the side of good--or do you not want them to be evil in fantasy novels either? Just wondering if in a fantasy novel if a witch or wizrd was the enemy then it would be okay???

Or are all fantasy novels evil regardless? Which I have sometimes honestly thought...

I honestly think Gandalf, Aragorn son of Arathorn, and Legalos? represent the trinity...They sure seem to...and how do you represent the Holy Spirit without somehow depicting something magical in a fantasy novel???

I have thought about this "all magic is evil"--(even make believe) I lot and too a certain extant I am coming to agree...but it sure is confusing...Is all make-believe or pretending evil as well? I know that at one time the church condemned all actors because they thought they lost their souls in trying to portay other people...this was standard for the first 1500 or more years of the church I think...just wondering what people think of that...


tony

[MahogonySnail]

I think if we adopt a hardline "all fantasy magic is evil" stance we are in danger of becoming very superstitious.

It is sad that some christians think (and some well known TV evangelists teach) that satan has more power than God and that watching a Disney cartoon involving a witch will result in a) the Holy Spirit leaving, and b) opening yourself up to an attack of satan.

But the biggest danger is the "looking for satan around every corner" and the superstition which arises out of not properly measuring when something is fantasy or trickery and when something is truly evil and demonic.

MahoganySnail,

I agree completely with that. I think that 'looking for Satan around every corner' can be far more damaging to one's relationship with the Lord than a few hours spent reading/watching a make-believe story containing magic.

If we are busy looking for the 'evil' in everything, what time are we devoting to God?

[easygoing]

Originally Posted by MahogonySnail

I think if we adopt a hardline "all fantasy magic is evil" stance we are in danger of becoming very superstitious.

It is sad that some christians think (and some well known TV evangelists teach) that satan has more power than God and that watching a Disney cartoon involving a witch will result in a) the Holy Spirit leaving, and b) opening yourself up to an attack of satan.

But the biggest danger is the "looking for satan around every corner" and the superstition which arises out of not properly measuring when something is fantasy or trickery and when something is truly evil and demonic.

Well spoken mahogony. I agree with you as well.

[roaringkitten]

I dont go around and look for evil around every corner. But when I happen to run across something in society that Christianity embraces that is in conflict with the Word, I will reprove it. I like spending most of my time learning about the Word, how to encourage my fellow brethren, and how to reach the lost. Nothing is more fulfilling in life than living for my Savior. But I am not perfect or even close to it. I struggle with the flesh at times, and I ask in humility that people will seek God more and more each day!=)

Originally Posted by MahogonySnail

It is sad that some christians think (and some well known TV evangelists teach) that satan has more power than God and that watching a Disney cartoon involving a witch will result in a) the Holy Spirit leaving, and b) opening yourself up to an attack of satan.

I see that all the time in the area in which I live where most folks have been taught that God "doesn't do this anymore" and that God "doesn't work that way" but if you dig deep into what it is they're actually refering to, you will find that thee is no scriptural evidence to support such a stand at all ... yet these pastors and teachers seem to be stuck on satan and his incredible power to decieve then they point the finger toward every other belief system in the church but their own.

It's very sad actually and why I believe that, admist the great crisis that is now on the horizon, we will also see great awakening the likes of nothing we have ever seen before. The question is are we willing to put down our denomination pride and misgivings to be a part of something authentic that God is doing or are we going to continue to ignore God's call for the hour and keep doing those things that we feel is "right" according to our traditional doctrines even though the good fruit of it is virtually nonexistant?

I have a question. Thus who reject wizards (witches I think are always pretty sketchy) as heros or helpers in fantasy novels, do you reject just them on the side of good--or do you not want them to be evil in fantasy novels either? Just wondering if in a fantasy novel if a witch or wizrd was the enemy then it would be okay???

I apologize for the long post but it pretty much covers all the reasons that I object to presenting magic as "good", even in a fictional story. Below is a Wiccan's own testimony. Pay careful attention to the Christian authors that actually help seduce this person to the dark side.


"I admit it: I've read all the books and seen the movie twice, once with my Goddess daughters, and once with my partner who usually only wants to see depressing films with subtitles, preferably made in Poland or Romania under the occupation of the former Soviet Union. When he developed an inexplicable desire to see Harry Potter, I felt I should encourage him. Further confession: I like Harry Potter. In contrast to much of the Pagan discussion I've seen, I think the books and movie do teach some of our basic Wiccan values in a subtle and entertaining way, and that's part of their appeal.

Courage, empathy, ingenuity and generosity are some of our core values, found in the heros and heras of thousands of fairy tales. Harry and his friends exemplify them all. They contend with the values of his loathesome relations who represent utter conventionality (the adults) and utter selfishness and bullying (his cousin Dudley). One of the first things we see Harry do is to talk to a snake with empathy. He stands up for his friend Ron against the snobbery of some of the other Hogwarts students. He and Ron risk their own lives to defend the annoying Hermione from a troll. Ultimately, he, Ron and Hermione all use their special gifts and strengths to defeat the forces of evil.

Magic in the Harry Potter books is a somewhat neutral force, a technology and a talent rather than an ethos. There are good wizards and some very bad wizards. Part of the genius of the books is that the shadow side of life is dramatized so vividly. Childhood is full of intense passions and contests of power. Witness a pair of five-year-olds playing together, and you'll see anguish, outrage, affection, hurt, jealousy and selflessness succeed each other like rapid changes in the weather. Children's lives are determined by powerful figures who set the ground rules, provide or don't provide love, nurturing, nourishment, pleasure and privileges.

The psychologist Bruno Bettleheim, in his classic discussion of why children need fairy tales, pointed out how important it is for children to see both their positive and negative impulses mirrored, to know that greed and envy and rage are part of the common human condition. Only then can they eventually develop the maturity to grow beyond greed and hate. Hogwarts includes four Houses, one of which, Slytherin, is known for producing the wizards who go wrong. The shadow side is not disavowed, it's acknowledged and recognized. Slytherin is clearly a negative and undesireable force: "Anything but Slytherin!" Harry murmurs to the Sorting Hat which will determine which house he'll be in. But Slytherin also has its place. It's not disavowed: it's part of the school.

Children are certainly influenced by the values in the books they read, but often in ways that are more oblique and paradoxical than we think. As a child, I read books about magic voraciously. I so desperately wanted magic to be real. My very favorites were C.S. Lewis's Narnia books. On perhaps my tenth rereading of The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, I realized it was a Christian allegory. I came from a strong Jewish home, in which we never allowed a Christmas tree. In school, I remained silent when we sang Christmas Carols, and always felt uncomfortable when Christianity was assumed to be our common belief system. But I was able to set my discomfort aside, and still enjoy the magic. At the same time, the books introduced me to what is deep, true and universal in Christianity: the willingness to sacrifice, the concept of a deity who represents powerful, unconditional love, in a way I could understand and accept.

I identified with Lewis's characters, even though their class, religion, background and life experiences were very different from mine. Today, I see my African-American Goddess daughters identifying with the Harry Potter books. I suppose it's a lot to ask of stories set in an upper class English boarding school, but I wish that at least in the movies there were more strong characters of color, not just token extras.

I know that C.S. Lewis's English stiff upper lip stoicism, his view of what was honorable behavior affected me deeply, even though his standards were very different from my family's values. In his books, brave children don't cry. In my family of Jewish immigrants and psychotherapists, yelling, screaming, shouting, weeping and whining were simply how we expressed ourselves.

Today, rereading the books, it's not Lewis's Christianity that disturbs me but his misogyny, the way evil stems from women and beneficent power is male. He does have heroines as well as heroes in his world. Young girls can be strong, courageous agents, but grown up, sexual women are suspect. The Witch in his stories is clearly negative, and yet my love of the magic world he created is undoubtedly one of the reasons I became a Witch.

The magic in Harry Potter takes us back into an animate universe, where hats talk, pictures move, and snakes hold conversations. This world lies just on the other side of ordinary reality, behind a door or through a seemingly solid wall. In that world, consciousness is not limited to human beings. Animals, plants, and objects all carry their own awareness and can be communicated with.

Isn't that the essence of the Pagan worldview: that the earth is alive, that all being has consciousness, and that we can learn to communicate with that consciousness if we are sensitive and empathetic. Real magic is the process of learning to hear and speak in multidimensional ways. In time, I think we'll reap a crop of future Witches and Pagans from the Harry Potter books. I don't worry that their Harry Potter version of magic will prevent them from discovering the true depths of our spirituality. As they mature, their understanding will grow. It's the responsibility of those of us who practice real magic and Witchcraft as the spirituality of nature and the Goddess to convey their depths and teach their true disciplines.

In a global culture increasingly devitalized, corporatized, logoized and shopping malled, where everything is reduced to a commodity that can be bought and sold, I find it cheering that kids still yearn for magic. I hope their love of Harry's magic will inspire them to cherish and defend the natural world upon which real magic is based. "

http://www.starhawk.org/pagan/harrypotter.html

[thefightinglamb]

I still think it was her 'own desire' to be evil that would have led her to associate with a clearly bad-person in a book don't you?

Can I not write a bad person or creature in a book whatsoever out of fear some person 'that is tending or lusting after evil' might desire to become him/her/it--the bad guy. This is a very hard stance to take...It is equally hard for her to claim that CS Lewis tempted her and it wasn't her own desire which in full conception gave birth to death...

Personally, I think they should have used the word 'magician' in the old testament translations...as they find a magician in the new testament, that should have been called a wizard to stay consistant...but I think everyone now and days relates the word 'wizard' to fantasy, and 'magicians' to people that actually try to do magic....don't you think? Male witches I would likely call magicians...which makes me think if magic card tricks are evil?

God's light

tony

ps...Is there to be no bad guy/girl in whatever we right as some evil-tending person might fall in love with it and become it?
I am pretty sure CS Lewis did everything in his power to present the witch as evil and undesireable for anyone who loves the Lord or even just 'the good' as secular people would call it.

God's light once more
tony

FightingLamb,

I'm not trying to tell people what they should or shouldn't read. I'm just raising a yellow flag about a potential stumbling block for young, impressionable readers. Satan uses all kinds of deceptions to get a toehold on a person's life; fascination with magic (and the illusion of power that goes along with it) is just one of them. A fascinating (if not deeply disturbing) book that people might find interesting is "Hostage to the Devil". It's a documentary on the exorcisms of five Americans that happened in the last 25 years or so. It's nothing like "The Exorcist"...it's actually far more terrifying because it's all real. Malachi Martin, the author, did extensive interviews with all five people and documents the various deceptions that Satan's minions used to get the victims to let down their guard. I get a chill down my spine every time I think about the invisible battle that's raging RIGHT NOW for the heart, mind and soul of every person on the planet. Not that I'm trying to be dramatic or anything.

Another good read is "The Beautiful Side of Evil".

I dont Belive in Witches or Wizard's.
They are both Witchcraft.
You cant compare Jesus with Harry Potter.
It says in the Bible that Jesus Cast out Demons out of People into Swine.
Harry Potter was just make Belive. He was just pretending to do that.
Jesus did cast out Demon's. Here is a Scriputire,.... says Jesus Heals the Sick
People suffering servere pain,demon-possessed those haveing seizures,and the paralyzed,and he Healed them.
Matthew 4:24.
There are other Scriptures in the Bible that says that.

Originally Posted by Truth4All

He can do anything he wants in a fictional story

Originally Posted by Thaddaeus

It is pretty absurd to suggest Gandalf is evil; WAKE up DUDE!!!!!! GANDAFF IS NOT REAL. this is the very reason we shouldn't mess with witch craft the Bible and Gandaff being compared to each other as both truth .

Originally Posted by NazariteNation

Growing up I knew a couple of people, one of which was a relative, who were heavy into spells and witchcraft in high school. I don't recall any of their spells actually working...

I think these are issues that should not be overlooked. They are fictional stories. The majority of people understand it is fiction. There is no such thing as witchcraft. If anyone has clear proof of the opposite, please share. Do people actually believe David Copperfield, Harry Houdini or David Blaine perform real magic?

The most 'magical' power (in a super-natural meaning) around is probably the technology used by our militaries, most of which would doubtlessly have been cast as as 'magic' and 'evil' even 100 years ago.

A more important concern is whether any story (not just fantasy), is sending the correct moral messages out.

Originally Posted by NazariteNation

...however, a year or so after graduation my relative was exorcized after running into the woods with her new born child and butcher knife.

There a distinction between possession and suffering from a mental disorder, it's like claiming having a heart attack as an attack by evil spirits. If the distinction is not made, we're in danger of using the Christian equivalent of witch doctors rather than seeking medical care. I'm not discounting the role of a faith in God, but we can't attribute everything bad we don't fully understand as the work of the devil.

[Thaddaeus]

there might be some nice witches , but no there is no good witch concerning good and evil


Ga 5:19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,Ga 5:20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,Ga 5:21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.Ga 5:22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,Ga 5:23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.Ga 5:24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.Ga 5:25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Originally Posted by Thaddaeus

there might be some nice witches , but no there is no good witch concerning good and evil.

Pastor Keith, I question what evidence we have that anyone who calls themselves a witch or wizzard is anymore real than if I were to call myself a superhero? I could wear a big cloak, and wear my underpants over my trousers but I would be unable to demonstrate any 'supernatural' power.

Incidentally, those of you who claim witchcraft as evil, what do you make of fiction stories of superheroes? Is Spiderman too the work of Satan?