Israel’s Final Restoration

abcdef · May 27, 2016

Brother oldhermit,

I agree with every word you have said in this statement.

But the identification of this "remnant" is for me critical to the interpretation of this passage.

I would like to come to an agreement about the identity of the "remnant".

I did give you the scripture in Rom 11:9, as an example of the gentile Christians being a "remnant" of Israel.

oldhermit · May 27, 2016

abcdef said:

Rom 9:11 does not describe the Gentiles as the remnant but simply confirms the fact that because the heats of Israel were hardened, the Gentiles now have become heirs of salvation and he quotes from Isaiah 6:9-10 to illustrate his point. Every text of scripture that mentions the remnant it is always speaking of those of Israel. Look at the passages I gave you on the use of 'remnant'. There are many more if you want them. Gentiles are the branch that is grafted in but that does not equal remnant. We are not allowed to assign any definition to therms other than that which is supplied by the text.

abcdef · May 27, 2016

oldhermit said:

Brother old hermit,

Are you saying then, that the woman and the remnant are exactly the same? The Jewish Christians?

How is it then the the remnant does not flee the dest. of Jeru.?

TMS · May 28, 2016

Many church people today (some call themselves dispensationalists) believe that Israel and the church are two separate entities and that they must remain that way because God has not fulfilled all of his promises to the Jewish people. They say that God still has yet to give Israel the land promised to Abraham- But is that correct? Were the promises fulfilled?
In Genesis 12, God made two great promises to Abraham:
1. to make of him a nation; and,
2. to give him the land of Canaan.

While in Egypt, the children of Israel grew to be a nation. When they came out of Egyptian slavery, there were about 600,000 men, beside children (Exodus 12:37). Promise number one fulfilled--they were a nation.
After the death of Moses, Joshua led Israel into the Promised Land where each man received his inheritance. Promise number two fulfilled--they received the land of Canaan. God gave Israel ALL the land that he sware unto their fathers-
Joshua 21:43-45, And the LORD gave unto Israel ALL the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to ALL that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered ALL their enemies into their hand. There failed not ought of ANY good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; ALL CAME TO PASS.
Just before Joshua died, he explicitly said that Israel received EVERYTHING that God spake concerning Israel--
Joshua 23:14, And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; ALL ARE COME TO PASS UNTO YOU, and NOT ONE THING HATH FAILED THEREOF.
King Solomon confirmed that God gave Israel everything that he said that he would--
1 Kings 8:56 Blessed be the LORD, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to ALL that he promised: there hath not failed ONE word of all his good promise, which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant.

Israel and the church are not two separate groups. We are all one in Christ.

TMS · May 28, 2016

This false teaching of Israel versus the church gives rise to all kinds of strange and divers end-times schemes. Some of these people (dispensationalists) say that the church will live in heaven with Christ and that Israel will rule on the earth in fulfilment of the promises made to Abraham. Notice here that they even keep Israel and the church separate in the world to come. But do the scriptures keep Israel and the church separate? No. The scriptures say that Christ came to make Jew and Gentile ONE body.

Ephesians 2:11-22, Jews and Gentiles are One in Christ
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain ONE new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in ONE body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we BOTH have access by one Spirit unto the Father. (keep reading)

Ephesians 3:3, 5-6, We are the Same Body
3 ...by revelation he made known unto me the mystery...
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of THE SAME BODY, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Romans 4:9-17, We have the Same Father--Abraham
10 How was it then reckoned? when he (Abraham) was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of ALL them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

By faith we can be part of the same family.

PilgrimPassingThru · May 28, 2016

Shows one fold Jew or Greek

The remnant according to the election of grace come out of this people

Matthew 1:21:And she shall bring forth a son,
and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Matthew 15:24:But he answered and said,
I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

1John 2:22 And he is the propitiation for our sins:
and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 15:10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people .

Where in Christ given one Spirit to drink (making the two one) in himself

Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew ,circumcision nor uncircumcision,
Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free:but Christ is all, and in all.

....and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The remnant according to the election of grace is shown in contrast to the "rest blinded" Romans 11:-8 and out of these were sent to the Gentiles (as was Paul)

oldhermit · May 28, 2016

abcdef said:

The woman clothed with the sun is the collective nation of Israel through whom Jesus came. The woman who flees after the Son ascends to the throne is Israel who has been redeemed - Jewish Christians. This is the faithful remnant who is saved from the destruction when everyone else dies.

oldhermit · May 28, 2016

abcdef said:

This seems to be somewhat confusing for you and I am sure it may be to others as well so let me just take you through some of these OT passages and let's see who the remnant is and what God had to say about them.

God had promised a second regathering of his people. This was linked to a specific group of people, in a specific geographic location, and at a specified period in time. Here is what God said about this second regathering of his people.

1. Hosea 3:5 – “For the sons of Israel will remain for many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar and without ephod or household idols. Afterward the sons of Israel will return and seek the Lord their God and David their king; and they will come trembling to the Lord and to His goodness in the last days.”
2. God would gather Israel from all the lands and bring them into their own land.

a. Ezekiel 36:22-28 – “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. “I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord,” declares the Lord GOD, “when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. “For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25 “Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 “Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 “I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28 “You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.
b. Ezekiel 37:21-22 – “Say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations and no longer be divided into two kingdoms.”
c.The remnant of Judah would be saved from the east and the west and brought back to Jerusalem.“Then the word of the LORD of hosts came, saying, Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘I am exceedingly jealous for Zion, yes, with great wrath I am jealous for her.’ Thus says the LORD, ‘I will return to Zion and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. Then Jerusalem will be called the City of Truth, and the mountain of the LORD of hosts will be called the Holy Mountain.’ Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘Old men and old women will again sit in the streets of Jerusalem, each man with his staff in his hand because of age. ‘And the streets of the city will be filled with boys and girls playing in its streets.’ Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘If it is too difficult in the sight of the remnant of this people in those days, will it also be too difficult in My sight?’ declares the Lord of hosts. “Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘Behold, I am going to save My people from the land of the east and from the land of the west; 8 and I will bring them back and they will live in the midst of Jerusalem; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God in truth and righteousness.’ Zechariah 8:6-8
d. God would gather them from the four corners of the earth. “And He will lift up a standard for the nations and assemble the banished ones of Israel, and will gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” Isaiah 11:12

C. There would be a reunification of the remnant of both houses of Israel into one nation again. This would happen in their own land and this reunited nation would be under one King. The Gentiles would also be incorporated into this union

1. Isaiah 11:10-13 – 10 “Then in that day the nations will resort to the root of Jesse, who will stand as a signal for the peoples; And His resting place will be glorious. Then it will happen on that day that the Lord will again recover the second time with His hand the remnant of His people, who will remain, from Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And He will lift up a standard for the nations and assemble the banished ones of Israel, and will gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.Then the jealousy of Ephraim will depart, and those who harass Judah will be cut off; Ephraim will not be jealous of Judah, and Judah will not harass Ephraim.

So, the question before us is this, has the remnant of Judah and Israel been saved? In Rom 9-11 Paul spends much time explaining that God had given the gospel to his people Israel but because of the hardness of their hearts, they refused to believe. In Rom 9:6-8 Paul begins by defining who Israel is. “But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: 'THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.' That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, (unrepentant Israel) but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.” (The faithful remnant). In 25-27 Paul says that the prophets had declared that all Israel would be saved. “For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, 'THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB. THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.'” In 9:27 Paul defines again who Israel is, that it is only the remnant of this people who would be saved. Then in 11:6 Paul confirms that the remnant had indeed been saved, “In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.” In verse 17 he reminds his Gentile readers concerning Israel that only a branch was broken off. The tree still remains, verse 24. This is the faithful remnant. There must remain something to which the Gentiles could be grafted onto. The unfaithful branch has been broken off and the gospel was given to the Gentiles.

abcdef · May 28, 2016

oldhermit said:

This seems to be somewhat confusing for you and I am sure it may be to others as well so let me just take you through some of these OT passages and let's see who the remnant is and what God had to say about them.

God had promised a second regathering of his people. This was linked to a specific group of people, in a specific geographic location, and at a specified period in time. Here is what God said about this second regathering of his people.

1. Hosea 3:5 – “For the sons of Israel will remain for many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar and without ephod or household idols. Afterward the sons of Israel will return and seek the Lord their God and David their king; and they will come trembling to the Lord and to His goodness in the last days.”
2. God would gather Israel from all the lands and bring them into their own land.

a. Ezekiel 36:22-28 – “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. “I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord,” declares the Lord GOD, “when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. “For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25 “Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 “Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 “I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28 “You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.
b. Ezekiel 37:21-22 – “Say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations and no longer be divided into two kingdoms.”
c.The remnant of Judah would be saved from the east and the west and brought back to Jerusalem.“Then the word of the LORD of hosts came, saying, Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘I am exceedingly jealous for Zion, yes, with great wrath I am jealous for her.’ Thus says the LORD, ‘I will return to Zion and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. Then Jerusalem will be called the City of Truth, and the mountain of the LORD of hosts will be called the Holy Mountain.’ Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘Old men and old women will again sit in the streets of Jerusalem, each man with his staff in his hand because of age. ‘And the streets of the city will be filled with boys and girls playing in its streets.’ Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘If it is too difficult in the sight of the remnant of this people in those days, will it also be too difficult in My sight?’ declares the Lord of hosts. “Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘Behold, I am going to save My people from the land of the east and from the land of the west; 8 and I will bring them back and they will live in the midst of Jerusalem; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God in truth and righteousness.’ Zechariah 8:6-8
d. God would gather them from the four corners of the earth. “And He will lift up a standard for the nations and assemble the banished ones of Israel, and will gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” Isaiah 11:12

C. There would be a reunification of the remnant of both houses of Israel into one nation again. This would happen in their own land and this reunited nation would be under one King. The Gentiles would also be incorporated into this union

1. Isaiah 11:10-13 – 10 “Then in that day the nations will resort to the root of Jesse, who will stand as a signal for the peoples; And His resting place will be glorious. Then it will happen on that day that the Lord will again recover the second time with His hand the remnant of His people, who will remain, from Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And He will lift up a standard for the nations and assemble the banished ones of Israel, and will gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.Then the jealousy of Ephraim will depart, and those who harass Judah will be cut off; Ephraim will not be jealous of Judah, and Judah will not harass Ephraim.

So, the question before us is this, has the remnant of Judah and Israel been saved? In Rom 9-11 Paul spends much time explaining that God had given the gospel to his people Israel but because of the hardness of their hearts, they refused to believe. In Rom 9:6-8 Paul begins by defining who Israel is. “But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: 'THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.' That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, (unrepentant Israel) but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.” (The faithful remnant). In 25-27 Paul says that the prophets had declared that all Israel would be saved. “For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, 'THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB. THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.'” In 9:27 Paul defines again who Israel is, that it is only the remnant of this people who would be saved. Then in 11:6 Paul confirms that the remnant had indeed been saved, “In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.” In verse 17 he reminds his Gentile readers concerning Israel that only a branch was broken off. The tree still remains, verse 24. This is the faithful remnant. There must remain something to which the Gentiles could be grafted onto. The unfaithful branch has been broken off and the gospel was given to the Gentiles.

Brother oldhermit,

Thank you for bringing the joy of fellowship in the scriptures to my heart.

I love to study God's word.

I'm not going to press these issues too hard, or get "hung up" on details,

I want you to share in the joy that I have discussing these passages.

===================================

I'm still fuzzy on this remnant thing. But maybe one more post on it then we can move on to point 13, or whatever.

1. Are the woman and the "remnant of her seed" exactly the same? yes/no

2. What exactly is the difference between them?

3. If the woman is Jewish Christians fleeing Jerusalem, and the remnant is Jewish Christians, why doesn't the remnant flee Jerusalem?

I'm pretty busy today, but I'll try to peek in here when I can.

Brother John

RobbyEarl · May 28, 2016

Another book, I just as soon read the bible, amen

oldhermit · May 28, 2016

abcdef said:

Brother oldhermit,

Thank you for bringing the joy of fellowship in the scriptures to my heart.

I love to study God's word.

I'm not going to press these issues too hard, or get "hung up" on details,

I want you to share in the joy that I have discussing these passages.

===================================

I'm still fuzzy on this remnant thing. But maybe one more post on it then we can move on to point 13, or whatever.

1. Are the woman and the "remnant of her seed" exactly the same? yes/no

2. What exactly is the difference between them?

3. If the woman is Jewish Christians fleeing Jerusalem, and the remnant is Jewish Christians, why doesn't the remnant flee Jerusalem?

I'm pretty busy today, but I'll try to peek in here when I can.

Brother John

Did you read post #407? The remnant DID flee Jerusalem just as Jesus had warned them to do. This saved them from the destruction of the city.

abcdef · May 28, 2016

oldhermit said:

Brother oldhermit,

Then what exactly is the difference between the woman and the remnant?

You have them both with exactly the same definition.

Brother John

oldhermit · May 28, 2016

abcdef said:

Essentially there is little difference. They are both Israel. The woman clothed with the sun is Israel who is bring forth the Messiah. The woman who flees into the wilderness is Israel who had embraced their Messiah. This is the remnant.

royalscot · May 28, 2016

wrong its a material word. 2016, so why would she flee, given she owns the land ,
for example
romeo and juliet

tax system that the world uses etc

garee · May 29, 2016

Hi brother in Christ, thanks for the reply

I would suggest there is one bride, one gospel, one spiritual seed, Christ.

Two kinds of seeds. A clear distinction between the two is necessary I believe.

It is not my intention to reassign that in which by you have as it seems been indoctrinated. The woman is the bride of Christ, as the spiritual house of God the church. She is made up of up of many lively stones revealed, as the bride of Christ coming down as the heavenly city, the New Jerusalem or called Zion.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Her new name as part of the first century reformation, called by God in Acts 11, is Christians. She was previously called Israel as an inward Jew, born again of the Spirit of Christ.. Remember if any man has not the Spirit of Christ they simply do not belong to the anointing Holy Spirit of God.( Romans 8:9)

Note..... seed singular, spiritul seed of Christ not seen, the faith principle. .

Not as though the word of God (the seed) hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these “are not” the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. Rom 9:6

We could say in the same way . For they are not all Christians which are called Christians.

The seed (Christ) of promise was not after Abraham seeds pertaining to the flesh just as with the new name he calls us, Christians. Being born into a Christian family does not make a person born again.

She is not of the seeds as to the flesh of Abraham but spiritual seed as in one, Christ.

His bride the church is identified as the “generation of Christ” .This is according to the genealogy found in Mathew beginning with Abraham who is used as a metaphor to typify our Father of many nations in heaven, as the one Father of spirit life. It ended because Christ fulfilled it. The genealogy as far as continuing is no more needed because of the reformation.

The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren; Mat 1:1

Not the generation in respect to the flesh of Abraham .That would simply be under the generation of Adam in which all die.

That genealogy pertaining to the flesh begins with Adam . Abraham in respect to his flesh is included .It is found in Luke.
I think it is the reason we are given the two list of genealogies.

Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala, Luk 3:33

She is the remnant of all the people in the world that God had mercy on by giving her His grace. It has nothing to with the flesh of Abraham or Sarah .In that way Christ said the flesh profits nothing, zip, nada. For it is the spiritual seed of Christ, the anointing Holy Spirit of God that does give His people new spiritual life needed to live forever.

Christ, as the anointing Holy Spirit of God has no mother or father beginning of days or end of spirit life.
She is no more Israel according to the outward flesh then would she be considered Christian in respect to the outward flesh.

2Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

She is the same spiritual seed (one ) in Genesis 3:15. The same seed imputed to saint Abel you could say a gentile in whom God has mercy and grace on.

And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. Gen 4:4

No man/person will be found clothed with a righteousness of themselves. The bride of Christ is clothed with the sun, used to represent the glorious light of the gospel.

A clear distinction must be made between the spiritual seed of Christ (not seen) and seeds of men pertaining to the flesh (that seen).

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

This is not according the flesh of Abraham

Christ is the seed that pertains to David one of the lively stones that makes up the spiritual house of God prepared as His bride. .

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

2Timothy 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel: (the incorruptible seed of God's word)

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

There are two kind of seeds we are to concern ourselves with ,I believe.. One seed in respect to the generation of Adam under the influence of the "god of this world, the serpent". And the other, the new generation in Christ, the spiritual seed.

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman , and between thy seed and her seed; “it” shall bruise thy head, and thoushalt bruise his heel.

abcdef · May 29, 2016

oldhermit said:

Brother oldhermit,

I'm still short on time.

I'm focusing on the phrase "the remnant of her seed".

And the general time line.

I hope to have a "generalized conclusion", so that we can move on to point 13.

Have a blessed day.

Brother John

oldhermit · May 29, 2016

abcdef said:

The woman who flees into the wilderness (Israel who has embraced their Messiah) is the seed of the woman. Out of Israel has come the beginning of the Church - her seed. Perhaps you need some time to process all if this. Give yourself time to consider and weigh these things. Chew on it for a while. Just remember that all of this was to happen in the last days.

abcdef · May 31, 2016

oldhermit said:

Brother oldhermit,

1. The Woman, we agree that,

a. The woman is the natural branches that brought forth the manchild.

b. The woman is the remnant spoken of in Rom 11:5.

c. The woman and the seed of the woman flee Jerusalem.

d. The woman is Christian Jews.
========================================

2. The Wilderness

The woman must flee further that the mountains (Masada) to escape from Rome, she must fly into the wilderness. This wilderness would be thought of as the unknown areas of the planet. These are places without law, God's Law. It would mean the gentile kingdoms. The wilderness of gentile religions. There's no place like home (Jerusalem) for the woman and her seed.
================================================

3. The Woman and Her Seed are 2 different groups.

a. The seed of the woman does not fly into the wilderness.

b. The seed of the woman remains under the power of Rome, (makes war).

c. The natural branches (woman) cannot remain under Rome's influence. They are "taken" away as slaves, "left behind" for dead, or they fly away to the wilderness. Ezek 5:12, Lk 17:34-37. After 70 ad, for a long while, it was forbidden for Jews to be in Jerusalem, none of the natural branches (woman) could remain there.

d. The seed cannot be Israel after the flesh or else they would be considered part of the woman.
======================================================

4. The Seed of the Woman

a. The seed of a woman is her children. The children are considered her flesh, but they are not the exact same individual.

b. Israel has children after the flesh, but she also has children after the spirit. The children after the spirit include the gentiles of the kingdom, (gift of the Holy Spirit). The kingdom is shown as seeds entering the heart in the parable of the sower Matt 13. And as a mustard seed in Matt 13:31-32.

c. At this time, the seeds of the kingdom had already been rejected by the woman, the natural branches. The seeds were now going to the gentiles.

d. The gentiles of the kingdom are grafted into Israel, Rom 11;19. They are considered loyal Israelites Rom 10:12, Gal 3:28.
==========================================================

5. The Remnant of Her Seed, This is not a remnant of the woman, but is a remnant of her seed (of the kingdom).

This group remains under Rome's power. There is only a remnant because many gentile Christians had been killed already.
The reason that they could remain was that they were not "native" to Israel, they were from other countries. We know that by this time the "seed" of the kingdom had reached as far away as Rome and Ethiopia.

We could also consider Cornelius of Acts 10:22 as being an example of a gentile who would remain with the seeds, if he lived that long.
===========================================

The remnant of the seed, of the woman , can ONLY be the gentiles with the seeds of the kingdom, who remain under the power of Rome.
=============================================

Brother John

oldhermit · May 31, 2016

abcdef said:

Brother oldhermit,

1. The Woman, we agree that,

a. The woman is the natural branches that brought forth the manchild.

b. The woman is the remnant spoken of in Rom 11:5.

c. The woman and the seed of the woman flee Jerusalem.

d. The woman is Christian Jews.
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2. The Wilderness

The woman must flee further that the mountains (Masada) to escape from Rome, she must fly into the wilderness. This wilderness would be thought of as the unknown areas of the planet. These are places without law, God's Law. It would mean the gentile kingdoms. The wilderness of gentile religions. There's no place like home (Jerusalem) for the woman and her seed.
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3. The Woman and Her Seed are 2 different groups.

a. The seed of the woman does not fly into the wilderness.

b. The seed of the woman remains under the power of Rome, (makes war).

c. The natural branches (woman) cannot remain under Rome's influence. They are "taken" away as slaves, "left behind" for dead, or they fly away to the wilderness. Ezek 5:12, Lk 17:34-37. After 70 ad, for a long while, it was forbidden for Jews to be in Jerusalem, none of the natural branches (woman) could remain there.

d. The seed cannot be Israel after the flesh or else they would be considered part of the woman.
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4. The Seed of the Woman

a. The seed of a woman is her children. The children are considered her flesh, but they are not the exact same individual.

b. Israel has children after the flesh, but she also has children after the spirit. The children after the spirit include the gentiles of the kingdom, (gift of the Holy Spirit). The kingdom is shown as seeds entering the heart in the parable of the sower Matt 13. And as a mustard seed in Matt 13:31-32.

c. At this time, the seeds of the kingdom had already been rejected by the woman, the natural branches. The seeds were now going to the gentiles.

d. The gentiles of the kingdom are grafted into Israel, Rom 11;19. They are considered loyal Israelites Rom 10:12, Gal 3:28.
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5. The Remnant of Her Seed, This is not a remnant of the woman, but is a remnant of her seed (of the kingdom).

This group remains under Rome's power. There is only a remnant because many gentile Christians had been killed already.
The reason that they could remain was that they were not "native" to Israel, they were from other countries. We know that by this time the "seed" of the kingdom had reached as far away as Rome and Ethiopia.

We could also consider Cornelius of Acts 10:22 as being an example of a gentile who would remain with the seeds, if he lived that long.
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The remnant of the seed, of the woman , can ONLY be the gentiles with the seeds of the kingdom, who remain under the power of Rome.
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Brother John

Perhaps we should table this for now. We do generally agree but there are some points of disagreement. Maybe we can look at some of these points later on. How do you understand the "last days?"

abcdef · May 31, 2016

oldhermit said:

Brother oldhermit,

Of course I said that this was a conclusion to point 12.

We disagree on something, ha ha, how could that ever happen?

I'm looking forward to point 13, the 3 1/2 times.
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The last days began on Pentecost.

Paul said that he was in the last days, Heb 1:2.

I think that we probably agree about when they started, the question is when do they end?

You're not going to say 70 ad are you?

Israel’s Final Restoration

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