reconciling the faith of abraham, true Faith

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jasonj

Guest
#1
galatians 3:6- "So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you. So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith."


James 2:20-24 "You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless ? Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone."


genesis 15:6 "Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness."

genesis 22:15-18 "The angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time and said, “I swear by myself, declares the Lord, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me.”

I recommend reading the story of Abraham in genesis , and the statement of Paul in galatians, and the statement of James and realize the proper way to understand scripture, is not through subtraction, but addition. Scripture completes its self.
its not proper to take pauls one scripture, and eliminate James more complete statement of Faith and righteousness. and moreso, wouldn't be proper to eliminate the source of pauls assertion, and james assertion which is the story of Abrahams obedience, even to the point of not withholding His only son ( according to scripture, regardless that Ishmael was already born through doubt) God says Isaac is His only son.

Abraham is the original man of Faith, and I promise you will notice this main theme of Abraham if you take time to read His story ; He obeyed God after He received the promise, His Faith was made complete by His actions. a few statements from Gods word regarding Abraham ( realizing the law had not come at this point, so don't equate it with "works of the Law" or you will only cheat yourself of truth) simplky take it for What is there as Gods Word, meant to make a clear message.

genesis 26 :4-5 "I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed,[SUP] [/SUP]because Abraham obeyed me and did everything I required of him, keeping my commands, my decrees and my instructions.”


it is not to contest salvation by Faith, but to show that Faith is completed by action. if Abraham had believed God, but failed to obey , would His credit of righteousness have been valid? think according to more information, rather than omitting what doesn't agree with your thinking, Gods word is true that's a promise.

so Abraham believed God and it was credited to Him as righteousness...paul is correct. is that all?

faith is not only belief, but faith is acting upon the belief we profess.....james is correct. if we need to omit James to prove paul, were working backwards and hindering the growth, withholding the promises that come by faith.

consider david, He was a man after Gods own heart, what does Gods word say of Him ?

acts 13:22 "After removing Saul, he made David their king. God testified concerning him: 'I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.'"

it is a recurring theme all the way through scripture. from abel and cain to the last books of John and even revelation. obedience is Gods will for man. Faith in Christ. think of it. If I believe that Jesus is who He says he is, and refuse to accept what He says, and refuse to do what He says to do, what does that make me? wise? discerning? it makes a person foolish if they believe In Jesus, not to seek after His words. Faith and Grace are for the purpose that sinners once lost to their own sinful hearts, condemned to death unable to please God.....Are made able through the atonement of Jesus Christ " 1 peter 2:24. romans 6, romans 8. colossians 3...ect. this is true stuff in these pages. if you believe what paul has taught through the spirit, believe it and step out of the boat like peter or never will you experience the power of God to make you walk upon the waves.

you need not trust me, like me, I love you enough to not omit truth for popularity. Just trust what Gods word says. go to your own Bible and study this subject. then you will understand paul much more because when you read His statements of faith, you will understand Faith is not a thought, or even knowledge. But it is the evidence of what you believe in your actions, because your faith is true. The enemy doesn't change Gods Word, He cant, has no power to do so, His method is to change our minds about what God has said. His method is the exact same as the Garden " did God really say that" its just much further along and has spread out and has many colors, but its all false doctrine, just like the first false doctrine. "surely it wont kill you....." He is a liar, Jesus is the Truth. easy choice.


if you get anything from this, thank the good Lord that it doesn't matter who says it, what matters is " is it true" did God really say that?......all wisdom, honor, power, glory and every majesty belongs to our Great God and to His Son who makes us new. May you be blessed in the promises of God, you don't need to be perfect, just need to step into the knowledge of obedience, its a blessing, not an oppression, the truth will set you free
 
Feb 9, 2010
2,486
39
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#2
Right jasonj,we need to harmonize scriptures,and not believe one scripture,and ignore another,that gives greater detail concerning it,because sometimes reading one scripture might not tell all that is included,until another scripture is read,that reveals it further.

Sure we have to have faith,but there is more included to it.We cannot say I have faith alone,for the Bible clearly states we are not saved by faith alone,so we cannot ignore that.

Abraham had faith,but he was not justified until he did the completed work.

But I know some people will say we are not saved by works,which we are not,and they are right,but we cannot ignore that we are not saved by faith alone.

We are not saved by works.Paul was sent to the Gentiles,and the book of Romans was addressed to the Gentiles,who followed different religions,and gods,other than the God of Israel,who did works,and things thinking that it would find favor with God,and please Him,and have a good standing with Him.

Paul is telling the Gentiles that all their false religions,and their false gods,and the works that they do,has no bearing on finding favor with God,who the only true God,is the God of Israel,for all their works does no good,but only by confessing Christ,and accepting His sacrifice,can they have a relationship with God,who is the God of Israel,and to forsake all their falseness.

Not saved by works means trying to find favor with God,apart from Christ.

But of course even if a person did acknowledge the God of Israel,but was apart from Christ,their works would not find favor with Him either.

But of course in the Old Testament,they were justified by their works,before Christ appeared giving salvation.

There is nothing we can do to inherit salvation,for all our righteousness is as filthy rags,there is none that does good,no,not one,and all are sinners,and come short of the glory of God,and all our works would never measure up to have a spiritual relationship with God,for no person is sinless.

Jesus is a sinless man,that did it all for us,and opened the door to the kingdom of heaven,so we have to recognize Him,as Savior,and mediator,and representative to God,for no man comes to the Father,but by the Son.

After we confess Christ,and are led of the Spirit,then we must do works,to have faith active in our life,but these are works of the Spirit,and not of ourselves.

It would be like Abraham justified by works,before Christ came,after Christ came,the same rule applies,justified by works,by the Spirit,but whether Old,or New,the same thing remains,the works that justify us,are coming from God,for Abraham was justified by works,but it was from God,and we are justified by works,but it comes from God.

The works come from God,and not ourselves,so we are not saved by works,coming from us,apart from Christ,but even if someone does confess Christ,but does works other than the Spirit,they are not justified by those works,but after we are saved,we have to allow the Spirit to lead us,and have works of the Spirit,which is to love people,and keep ourselves unspotted from the world,to have faith active in our life.

They are works from God,and not from us,but fear not,for this will make it even easier to deal with faith without works is dead,and we are not saved by faith alone,for it is summed up like this,if you are led of the Spirit,you are saved,and if not,you are not.

We all agree we have to be led of the Spirit,so if you are led of the Spirit,you are going to do all things that please God anyway,whether feed the poor,loving people,and do right,which are works of the Spirit,and if not you will not please God.

So the controversy between,not saved by works,saved by works,only faith,not faith alone,and whatever appears to separate them,only lies in this,being led of the Spirit,or not,it is as simple as that,and the sum of the controversy,which we know we have to be led of the Spirit,for everybody agrees with that,and if we agree to that,there is no controversy,for if you are led of the Spirit,you are going to do what God wants,and please God,and if not led of the Spirit,you will not please God.

And if you are led by the Spirit,you will do the works of the Spirit,and please God,so you are abiding by faith without works is dead,and not saved by faith alone,for you are led of the Spirit,whether you believe not saved by works,or saved by works.

It boils down to being led of the Spirit,or not being led of the Spirit,whether you believe not saved by works,or saved by works,because it all boils down to being led of the Spirit,or not,and as long as you are led of the Spirit,there is nothing wrong,although God would still want us to improve,and be more like Christ.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
24,999
13,008
113
58
#3
Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works, "shown to be righteous."

The harmony of Romans 4:2-6 and James 2:14-24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the believer as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.
 

Yonah

Senior Member
Oct 31, 2014
1,074
103
48
#4
Joh 8:39
They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.



Gen 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.



 
J

jasonj

Guest
#5
Joh 8:39
They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, IfyewereAbraham'schildren,yewoulddotheworksofAbraha.



Gen 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.



yes and galatians 3:7 all who believe are children of abaraham, and heirs according to the promise.......
 
J

jasonj

Guest
#6
Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works, "shown to be righteous."

The harmony of Romans 4:2-6 and James 2:14-24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the believer as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.
umm, I think I see your point. the point is God says of us just as Abraham "you are righteous, because you believe Jesus".....there is a point, as the scriptures say of Abraham "after a time God tested Abraham genesis 22:1 in a course of time he was tested. I find it interesting that Abram, receives the promise, God credits Him with righteousness, then he begind to obey God, and God Changes His name to Abraham, and then comes the testing of The new mans faith. does that bring any coarse of thought to you at all?

again, I'm not saying were saved by works or earn salvation ect....im saying the righteousness we claim through the writings of paul is a real powerful thing that does truly offer a new life. and there is a point where speaking and actions need to work together. just hate that so many settle on the idea " there is nothing to do when we are saved by Grace" Grace does save, it also "teaches us to live upright Godly lives" and it changes us a sinner cant obey himself into salvation, but a new man can live the things he is told to actually obey.

not meant to argue or anything, thanks for the scripture and addition. God blesss
 
J

jasonj

Guest
#7
Right jasonj,we need to harmonize scriptures,and not believe one scripture,and ignore another,that gives greater detail concerning it,because sometimes reading one scripture might not tell all that is included,until another scripture is read,that reveals it further.

Sure we have to have faith,but there is more included to it.We cannot say I have faith alone,for the Bible clearly states we are not saved by faith alone,so we cannot ignore that.

Abraham had faith,but he was not justified until he did the completed work.

But I know some people will say we are not saved by works,which we are not,and they are right,but we cannot ignore that we are not saved by faith alone.

We are not saved by works.Paul was sent to the Gentiles,and the book of Romans was addressed to the Gentiles,who followed different religions,and gods,other than the God of Israel,who did works,and things thinking that it would find favor with God,and please Him,and have a good standing with Him.

Paul is telling the Gentiles that all their false religions,and their false gods,and the works that they do,has no bearing on finding favor with God,who the only true God,is the God of Israel,for all their works does no good,but only by confessing Christ,and accepting His sacrifice,can they have a relationship with God,who is the God of Israel,and to forsake all their falseness.

Not saved by works means trying to find favor with God,apart from Christ.

But of course even if a person did acknowledge the God of Israel,but was apart from Christ,their works would not find favor with Him either.

But of course in the Old Testament,they were justified by their works,before Christ appeared giving salvation.

There is nothing we can do to inherit salvation,for all our righteousness is as filthy rags,there is none that does good,no,not one,and all are sinners,and come short of the glory of God,and all our works would never measure up to have a spiritual relationship with God,for no person is sinless.

Jesus is a sinless man,that did it all for us,and opened the door to the kingdom of heaven,so we have to recognize Him,as Savior,and mediator,and representative to God,for no man comes to the Father,but by the Son.

After we confess Christ,and are led of the Spirit,then we must do works,to have faith active in our life,but these are works of the Spirit,and not of ourselves.

It would be like Abraham justified by works,before Christ came,after Christ came,the same rule applies,justified by works,by the Spirit,but whether Old,or New,the same thing remains,the works that justify us,are coming from God,for Abraham was justified by works,but it was from God,and we are justified by works,but it comes from God.

The works come from God,and not ourselves,so we are not saved by works,coming from us,apart from Christ,but even if someone does confess Christ,but does works other than the Spirit,they are not justified by those works,but after we are saved,we have to allow the Spirit to lead us,and have works of the Spirit,which is to love people,and keep ourselves unspotted from the world,to have faith active in our life.

They are works from God,and not from us,but fear not,for this will make it even easier to deal with faith without works is dead,and we are not saved by faith alone,for it is summed up like this,if you are led of the Spirit,you are saved,and if not,you are not.

We all agree we have to be led of the Spirit,so if you are led of the Spirit,you are going to do all things that please God anyway,whether feed the poor,loving people,and do right,which are works of the Spirit,and if not you will not please God.

So the controversy between,not saved by works,saved by works,only faith,not faith alone,and whatever appears to separate them,only lies in this,being led of the Spirit,or not,it is as simple as that,and the sum of the controversy,which we know we have to be led of the Spirit,for everybody agrees with that,and if we agree to that,there is no controversy,for if you are led of the Spirit,you are going to do what God wants,and please God,and if not led of the Spirit,you will not please God.

And if you are led by the Spirit,you will do the works of the Spirit,and please God,so you are abiding by faith without works is dead,and not saved by faith alone,for you are led of the Spirit,whether you believe not saved by works,or saved by works.

It boils down to being led of the Spirit,or not being led of the Spirit,whether you believe not saved by works,or saved by works,because it all boils down to being led of the Spirit,or not,and as long as you are led of the Spirit,there is nothing wrong,although God would still want us to improve,and be more like Christ.
yes, ive never said in this op or elsewhwere were saved by works, that's what a lot perceive when the word obedience is used. I find and have found in life that Faith, is not only belief, but the evidence of the belief. the evidence of a persons belief is there action. if a person had faith that there was a bag containing 10000 dollars buried in their front yard, I bet they would dig until they found it, but if someone they didn't believe told them, that bag is buried in your yard, would they dig?

we are credited with righteousness because we believe Jesus, if we believe Jesus we will believe Jesus words. if His words repeat things that direct us to do what He is saying, we will do those things as Grace changes us. I'm not of the world definition of grace tho. and I'm not a believer that there isn't work to be done. The spirit Leads and dirests us, it is we who follow and obey. God will never make us obey Him, if we choose to obey Him because we have faith, He will make us new inside and the righteousness we are credited with will become the new nature of our desires and actions. The thing that changes everything for a believer, is when they will believe that the gospel isn't just something to believe, but a way of life that has the power to make a dead man, come to life. the power to make the worst of sinners, into the righteous eternal friends, and children of The Only True God. and obedience to the gospel, BECAUSE we do have faith in Jesus, and He is the one saying to us in this gospel. "put my words into practice in your lives" if you love me you will obey...ect....if we have no faith, we will never step, and faith comes through hearing the message of Gods word. it hinders our faith to omit the things we don't agree with, the things in Gods word that cut, or we don't like to hear......those are the things that make us flourish. thank you for the input God bless you