Is Eternal Security Conditional or Unconditional?
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Catching up here, again!
Who is thinking they are allowed to walk after the flesh??? Certainly no one here has EVER claimed that!
We all believe in obedience, in denying ourselves daily, and walking in the Spirit.
Why? Because we believe both the Bible, and the witness of the Spirit in our lives.
"But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." Gal. 5:16-18
"For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit" Romans 8:5
So what are you doing? Are you walking according to the law, thinking that is going to get you into heaven? Do you think that keeping the law is the standard by which God will judge us? Because following the law means you are not born again and you do not belong to God. In fact, it means you are a Pharisee!
The Bible is clear in the passages above that we are to be led by the Spirit and WE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW!!
So glad we could once again clear up this straw man - people who believe in eternal security do not believe we can sin wantonly, disobey God or think that we can earn our salvation by obeying the law. Instead we walk according the the Spirit! Because we are born again of the Spirit of God.
R
I already know what scriptures refute your scriptures. I did not join this forum to get in debates or arguments. I know God's Word well, and teach it...I will say it one more time, and let it go...If You beleive in "Once Saved/ Always Saved" and God will never reject you from entering heaven by doing whatever you please, even if God's Word tells you it is wrong, but you do it anyway out of pride, etc: You.will get a rude awakening on Judgement Day as in Revelation 20 Start at verse 10.
Have a great Memorial Day Weekend..
Have a great Memorial Day Weekend..
Well said!
I think what may be happening is that when some people see someone say that sin does not affect a true believer's eternal security and so they equate that with they are telling people "Go ahead and sin all you want" ( which of course grace believers are saying the exact opposite of that )
Paul was accused of the very same things and frankly if no one accuses us of saying that - then we have not preached the gospel that Paul preached.
We are a new creation in Christ now. We can trust the Holy Spirit in us, we can trust the life of Christ on the inside of us, we can trust the love of God that is poured into our hearts by the Holy Spirit....we can trust the Lord with every aspect of living this life as we have died and our real life now is hidden in Christ in God our Father.
The true Christian life is one of astounding adventure with Him living in and through us to a hurt and dying world and to our fellow brethren.
I think what may be happening is that when some people see someone say that sin does not affect a true believer's eternal security and so they equate that with they are telling people "Go ahead and sin all you want" ( which of course grace believers are saying the exact opposite of that )
Paul was accused of the very same things and frankly if no one accuses us of saying that - then we have not preached the gospel that Paul preached.
We are a new creation in Christ now. We can trust the Holy Spirit in us, we can trust the life of Christ on the inside of us, we can trust the love of God that is poured into our hearts by the Holy Spirit....we can trust the Lord with every aspect of living this life as we have died and our real life now is hidden in Christ in God our Father.
The true Christian life is one of astounding adventure with Him living in and through us to a hurt and dying world and to our fellow brethren.
R
But GRACE, we are not perfect and we sin all the time whether we know it or not. Christian people can be some of the most cruel people even more so than the wicked. The fact of the matter is,as God draws you closer, you find out just how sinful you are. Yes God's grace will cover it, if our faith is placed right. But if our faith is placed right, The Holy Spirit will point out that sin and you will repent or not. If you knock off clothes from the rack at Walmart, the Holy Spirit will tell you to pick them up.
Anyway, as God said to Cain, sin should not rule over you. This is the dilemma that we are faced with. This doctrine was formed from men who were in sin and couldn't understand why they were. So they demised that once were saved we are saved no matter what we do. When in fact, their faith was misguided into what they do and not the work of the cross. When are faith is misguided into what we do, then the Helper must back off and without the helper we fail and find verse to justify our condition. This is the birth of once saved always saved and the reason why we have gay Pastor's and men in the women's bathroom.
Anyway, as God said to Cain, sin should not rule over you. This is the dilemma that we are faced with. This doctrine was formed from men who were in sin and couldn't understand why they were. So they demised that once were saved we are saved no matter what we do. When in fact, their faith was misguided into what they do and not the work of the cross. When are faith is misguided into what we do, then the Helper must back off and without the helper we fail and find verse to justify our condition. This is the birth of once saved always saved and the reason why we have gay Pastor's and men in the women's bathroom.
E
here is HEROSE, way back in post 35 of this thread, telling us that the grace of God is CONDITIONAL
yet, scripture states this:
God’s love, as described in the Bible, is clearly unconditional in that His love is expressed toward the objects of His love (that is, His people) despite their disposition toward Him. In other words, God loves because it His nature to love (1 John 4:8), and that love moves Him toward benevolent action. The unconditional nature of God’s love is most clearly seen in the gospel. The gospel message is basically a story of divine rescue. As God considers the plight of His rebellious people, He determines to save them from their sin, and this determination is based on His love (Ephesians 1:4-5). Listen to the Apostle Paul’s words from his letter to the Romans:
“You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:6-8). you can read the rest here
hopefully, no one is going to say that GOT QUESTIONS, a VERY well known site, is about hyper grace or sinning
the op is set out as an opportunity to discuss eternal security and whether or not it is conditional
the op, and originator of this thread, herose, states plainly in the quote from his post #35, that God's grace is given to the OBEDIENT
so in his economy, God's grace is viewed as a REWARD for obedience...mind you, even Abraham did not incur salvation through obedience, but rather through FAITH
as scripture plainly states that God's grace is not earned or rewarded, grace itself becomes the focus of examination
and how does that look? well, grace becomes a dirty word with those who state that God's grace is unmerited favor, being called names such as hyper-grace or cheap grace
after the initial round of hyper and cheap grace insults, the banner of 'you continue in sin and you are not saved' appears and is waved around for all to see...kind of like a matador demonstrating the swords and spears he is going to use before the bull fight
that, becomes a bit of a red flag, which it is actually intended as, and another round of distortion, accusation and insinuation begins with the same targets and weary combatants sizing each other up and a crowd of 'guests' reading from the sidelines and the occasional daredevil running into the arena with a word of encouragement or caution
the only thing I can state is that no one has ever ever stated it is ok to sin, no one has ever ever said we can continue in sin and no one has ever ever said that we take the sacrifice of God's Son on the cross as dismissive or any other thing derogatory in any way, shape or manner
why would a false accusation continually be posted over and over again other than there is no scripture to refute the fact that the grace of God is ALWAYS unmerited and NEVER earned
what do you call it when someone repeatedly uses a refuted accusation over and over ?
I agree that we are definitely a work in progress and we thank God for His grace. The more we see Jesus - the more our outward behavior will reflect what we truly are in Him now - in our inner man created in righteousness and holiness. The renewing of our minds transforms us as we see Jesus for who He really is. When we see Him we become outwardly who we are in Him too.
I agree too that there will be some that will go off in their carnality and desire to do what they want. Most times their life can end early because of sin having dominion over them which is really a sign that they are not actually under grace at all.
The fact that the astounding message of the grace of God in Christ is open to mis-interpretation and the possibility of abuse does not give us license to water down, explain it away or cheapen it's glory by adding a single measure of law into it as an attempt to stay "balanced". There is nothing balanced whatsoever in the grace of Christ. His work is amazing and perfectly complete.
Sadly I have to agree with you about the gay pastors and other people "trying" to use the grace of God for justifying their lifestyle. In reality - they are not operating under grace where it can teach them how to live godly in this present world. If they do not want to be free from their sin outwardly - then they are deceived and I think there is a good possibility they will end up destroyed early in life by their sin.
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Some posts I don't care to even reply to because they are so far out in left field, it wouldn't do any good to try.
You sir, are not only way off to the left, but have left the stadium entirely.
Would you like to give two scripture references for the, "born of God" first theory, and "then we believe and confess"?
If we are born again by the grace of God THROUGH FAITH, how then can a person be "born of God" before they even have any faith? Even more, before they have applied that faith toward their salvation?
Read Romans 10:8-10. It explains the process about the word of faith.
While your at it, read James chapter two. Without corresponding works, your faith cannot save you because it is lifeless, useless, without effect and power, and dead.
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
I don't know about that.
"IF", sounds pretty conditional to me. And please don't try saying that it's a conditional conjunction that's been fulfilled.
It hasn't.
So long as you are alive in your natural body, the "if" applies.
Try telling that to the former ordained Baptist minister I talked to, who turned atheist. Both he and his wife were baptist ministers, preaching, teaching, wedding, baptizing, and everything. Until, according to him, he died three times and only saw blackness.
Well, if see is believing, then that is what he did.
So are you going to try and tell me that he and his wife really weren't believers at some point? That they never were born again because they fell away?
Or perhaps, because they were believers at one time, they never lost their salvation, because the gift of God is without repentance and the love of God is unconditional.
Do you know what it means when God says, "when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;"?
That means, they believed, said the sinner's prayer, confessed Jesus as their lord, then fell away because of maybe a personal experience.
This doesn't apply to salvation only but to healing and deliverance and answered prays as well.
It's like what most of you do.
Someone you know and/or love and maybe yourself, prayed for healing and got nothing. And so, turned or fell away from believing that God had healed them, according to that which is written, because their faith was based on other people's unbelieving experiences as well as their own, their five physical senses, their reasoning and logic, people of authority, and the like.
We are born again by the word of God. If you receive it, you have received Jesus. When you reject the word of God, regardless of how long you kept the word, you reject Jesus. No word, no Jesus. No Jesus, no life.
I have better than 21 pages that says contrary. Things that no one has been able to answer.
Would you like to give some of them a shot?
At the very least, it should call into question the doctrine of OSAS.
But everyone who believes in OSAS has to ignore or pervert scripture in order to make it work for them. Most tend to look and use the natural and rational thinking or reasoning to explain away the truths of God's promises, thereby perverting His word.
Really?
Then why did you reject the truth of God's word concerning healing, when you failed to receive your healing or that of a loved one? Or failed to get an answered prayer? Why do you have more faith in doctors, medications, and treatments than in God and His word to make you and your loved ones well?
You don't believe what the word says about Jesus baring every curse of the law on the cross for us. That He carried and bore every sickness and disease, and by His stripes we have already been healed.
If you have rejected this simple doctrinal truth, you have therefore rejected part of the gospel or good news of Jesus Christ.
Generally, the second part of your declaration is true. We tend to be like the spirit that is in us. If we make the tree good, the fruit will be good, and if we make the tree corrupt or evil, the fruit will be corrupt.
However, many fall into sin, which translates to corruption, blind, hardness of heart, error, and the like.
You need to read it again and take note.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Walking after the Spirit IS a condition. It has a two part condition. Being in Christ Jesus, and walking after the Spirit.
Okay, I read it yet again, and it still translates to road or pathway.
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
way,
Apparently a primary word; a road; by implication a progress (the route, act or distance); figuratively a mode or means: - journey, (high-) way.
leadeth,
1) to lead away
1a) especially of those who are led off to trial, prison, or punishment
You must first take and stay on the path or road that leads to life, BEFORE you get to the narrow gate.
The fact remains, that they called on the name of the lord and did not go to heaven, even though they believed.
And by the way, believing is not enough to get saved.
We are save by grace through faith, not through believing.
Then you can't be a child of God because you have erred from the truth in parts of the gospel as well.
The gospel or good news is not just about and for salvation only, that's just the beginning.
What do you think, "REMOVED FROM HIM" is talking about?
About the same as "YE ARE FALLEN FROM GRACE", I suppose.
Removed or fallen from, means you once had and now you don't.
Since you asked.
Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
To be removed from God or "Him", is to be removed from Christ.
You sir, are not only way off to the left, but have left the stadium entirely.
Would you like to give two scripture references for the, "born of God" first theory, and "then we believe and confess"?
If we are born again by the grace of God THROUGH FAITH, how then can a person be "born of God" before they even have any faith? Even more, before they have applied that faith toward their salvation?
Read Romans 10:8-10. It explains the process about the word of faith.
While your at it, read James chapter two. Without corresponding works, your faith cannot save you because it is lifeless, useless, without effect and power, and dead.
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
I don't know about that.
"IF", sounds pretty conditional to me. And please don't try saying that it's a conditional conjunction that's been fulfilled.
It hasn't.
So long as you are alive in your natural body, the "if" applies.
Try telling that to the former ordained Baptist minister I talked to, who turned atheist. Both he and his wife were baptist ministers, preaching, teaching, wedding, baptizing, and everything. Until, according to him, he died three times and only saw blackness.
Well, if see is believing, then that is what he did.
So are you going to try and tell me that he and his wife really weren't believers at some point? That they never were born again because they fell away?
Or perhaps, because they were believers at one time, they never lost their salvation, because the gift of God is without repentance and the love of God is unconditional.
Do you know what it means when God says, "when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;"?
That means, they believed, said the sinner's prayer, confessed Jesus as their lord, then fell away because of maybe a personal experience.
This doesn't apply to salvation only but to healing and deliverance and answered prays as well.
It's like what most of you do.
Someone you know and/or love and maybe yourself, prayed for healing and got nothing. And so, turned or fell away from believing that God had healed them, according to that which is written, because their faith was based on other people's unbelieving experiences as well as their own, their five physical senses, their reasoning and logic, people of authority, and the like.
We are born again by the word of God. If you receive it, you have received Jesus. When you reject the word of God, regardless of how long you kept the word, you reject Jesus. No word, no Jesus. No Jesus, no life.
I have better than 21 pages that says contrary. Things that no one has been able to answer.
Would you like to give some of them a shot?
At the very least, it should call into question the doctrine of OSAS.
But everyone who believes in OSAS has to ignore or pervert scripture in order to make it work for them. Most tend to look and use the natural and rational thinking or reasoning to explain away the truths of God's promises, thereby perverting His word.
Really?
Then why did you reject the truth of God's word concerning healing, when you failed to receive your healing or that of a loved one? Or failed to get an answered prayer? Why do you have more faith in doctors, medications, and treatments than in God and His word to make you and your loved ones well?
You don't believe what the word says about Jesus baring every curse of the law on the cross for us. That He carried and bore every sickness and disease, and by His stripes we have already been healed.
If you have rejected this simple doctrinal truth, you have therefore rejected part of the gospel or good news of Jesus Christ.
Generally, the second part of your declaration is true. We tend to be like the spirit that is in us. If we make the tree good, the fruit will be good, and if we make the tree corrupt or evil, the fruit will be corrupt.
However, many fall into sin, which translates to corruption, blind, hardness of heart, error, and the like.
You need to read it again and take note.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Walking after the Spirit IS a condition. It has a two part condition. Being in Christ Jesus, and walking after the Spirit.
Okay, I read it yet again, and it still translates to road or pathway.
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
way,
Apparently a primary word; a road; by implication a progress (the route, act or distance); figuratively a mode or means: - journey, (high-) way.
leadeth,
1) to lead away
1a) especially of those who are led off to trial, prison, or punishment
You must first take and stay on the path or road that leads to life, BEFORE you get to the narrow gate.
The fact remains, that they called on the name of the lord and did not go to heaven, even though they believed.
And by the way, believing is not enough to get saved.
We are save by grace through faith, not through believing.
Then you can't be a child of God because you have erred from the truth in parts of the gospel as well.
The gospel or good news is not just about and for salvation only, that's just the beginning.
What do you think, "REMOVED FROM HIM" is talking about?
About the same as "YE ARE FALLEN FROM GRACE", I suppose.
Removed or fallen from, means you once had and now you don't.
Since you asked.
Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
To be removed from God or "Him", is to be removed from Christ.
R
Which is why we must defend the true Gospel and stand ground, the message of grace is true and revered. But God is a Jealous God and sin cannot enter His presence. We need revival so bad in this nation and that true reverence or fear of God is instilled. But, this do what I want message ain't gonna do it. Yes, we have eternal security in Christ Jesus and will conduct ourselves as such. But when you have people in the dark (lol) and don't read their bible but rely on the people in the lights to tell them what to do, it's no better than Islam. They have relations with the church and not Christ.
Just come and give us your money and you will be fine.
I have even heard baptist preachers say that if you don't come to this church you won't make it.
Just come and give us your money and you will be fine.
I have even heard baptist preachers say that if you don't come to this church you won't make it.
I agree we really need to preach the true gospel of the grace of Christ because in "it" is the power to save alone. We don't preach against sin - we preach Christ and the sin thing falls off in His light and it brings those ones deceived from out of the dark ( lol ) into liberty in Christ.
( there are times for taking certain ones aside to deal with because of their behavior - but we don't beat all the rest of the sheep to get to that one wayward sheep )
When I hear stuff like you said about preachers or people saying if you don't come to this church you will not make it and other things of that nature.
That is just pure spiritual manipulation and is actually witchcraft which is a work of the flesh. Witchcraft at it's roots is the "mixing of things together to get a desired result".......which is exactly what those types of preachers and people themselves are engaging in.
( there are times for taking certain ones aside to deal with because of their behavior - but we don't beat all the rest of the sheep to get to that one wayward sheep )
When I hear stuff like you said about preachers or people saying if you don't come to this church you will not make it and other things of that nature.
That is just pure spiritual manipulation and is actually witchcraft which is a work of the flesh. Witchcraft at it's roots is the "mixing of things together to get a desired result".......which is exactly what those types of preachers and people themselves are engaging in.
Well actually, Grace777x70 believes that you can live after the flesh and still be saved. He has said so openly, but I suspect that anyone who follows Free Grace/Hyper Grace doctrine closely believes the same because that is what it teaches. Gr8grace is another who has said that he believes that a person can apostatize and still be saved.
So if you do not believe these things, then you are not in agreement with them.
So if you do not believe these things, then you are not in agreement with them.
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