Doctrine of Justification

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
63
#1
So how do you consider yourself justified?

Here is the Catholic website on the Catholic /Lutheran joint declaration on the Doctrine of Justification http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html


[ ] By Grace?

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Titus 3:7


Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Romans 3:24

[ ] By Faith?

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 3:28


[ ] By Works?

(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Romans 2:13

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:23-24


[ ] Other?

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Romans 8:30
 
S

Scriptureplz

Guest
#2
Romans 5:1

5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

In other words I agree with #2 "FAITH"
 
T

thepsalmist

Guest
#3
So how do you consider yourself justified?

Here is the Catholic website on the Catholic /Lutheran joint declaration on the Doctrine of Justification http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html


[ ] By Grace?

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Titus 3:7


Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Romans 3:24

[ ] By Faith?

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 3:28


[ ] By Works?

(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Romans 2:13

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:23-24


[ ] Other?

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Romans 8:30
A LIVING (#3) FAITH (#2) would be of no use if not for Jesus' sacrifice, which is the GRACE of God (#1)

So, I would say all three are necessary for justification as per the definitions in your OP.
 
T

thepsalmist

Guest
#4
Elaborations:

Grace in and of itself is useless for justification to an atheist.
A true faith bears good fruits (works) naturally in Christ ...
Works without faith are as dirty rags to God... and fall short of justification on their own.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,614
3,529
113
#5
Galatians 2:16, "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

Philippians 3:9, "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:"

The faith of Christ has justified me because I believed in the gospel of Jesus Christ.
 
S

Scriptureplz

Guest
#6
FAITH is the only possible element that we can be involved in. It's understood that grace of God ans sacrifice of Jesus are necessary elements, however WE play no part in either of those, only faith. :)
 
T

thepsalmist

Guest
#7
FAITH is the only possible element that we can be involved in. It's understood that grace of God ans sacrifice of Jesus are necessary elements, however WE play no part in either of those, only faith. :)
Hm ... I would say that we cannot even boast about our faith ... I feel that faith is also gift from God.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,034
13,041
113
58
#8
So how do you consider yourself justified?

Here is the Catholic website on the Catholic /Lutheran joint declaration on the Doctrine of Justification http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

[ ] By Grace?

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Titus 3:7

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Romans 3:24
Justified by His grace expresses salvation as God's free gift.

[ ] By Faith?

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 3:28
Faith is the instrumental means by which we receive justification. Grace (unmerited favor) is God's part and faith is man's part.

[ ] By Works?

(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Romans 2:13

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:23-24
In Romans 2:13, Paul was showing the self-righteous Jews who judged the Gentiles that they were not able to keep a perfect standard. *They were hypocrites. *This is why Paul tells us in the very next chapter in Romans 3:28 that we are justified by faith apart from the works of the Law. *No one is able to keep a perfect standard of the Law. *If you fail even once (stumble in one point), then you become guilty of it all.

James 2:10, “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.” Galatians 3:10, “For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”

The Jews (and anyone else) can be justified before God by keeping the Law, but he or she has to be 100% perfect. *A person can’t fail even once--ever. *But all have failed (Romans 3:23; 6:23), that is why we must be justified before God by faith (Romans 3:24-28, 4:2-6; 5:1).

James 2:24 is misinterpreted by works salvationists. In the first place, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says-claims he has faith but has no works (to back up his claim). Where is the evidence? This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" He is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous" not accounted as righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (just like our works) reveal the state of our hearts. Words will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of grace and righteousness.

The harmony of Ephesians 2:8,9; Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the believer as righteous (Romans 3:24; 4:2-3; 5:1). James, however is using the term to describe those who would prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.

Man is saved through faith and not works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*

[ ] Other?

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Romans 8:30
Notice and whom He justified, them He also glorified.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,614
3,529
113
#9
Justified by His grace expresses salvation as God's free gift.
James 2:24 is misinterpreted by works salvationists. In the first place, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says-claims he has faith but has no works (to back up his claim). Where is the evidence? This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" He is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

Man is saved through faith and not works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*

Notice and whom He justified, them He also glorified.
The question that James is answering is not will true faith have evidence, but, can faith save him v14. Students of Scripture have never been successful trying to make James' Jewish epistle fit into Paul's epistles. There are three options:

1. Force James to fit Paul through crafty reasoning and explanation, not taking the Scripture at face value
2. Force James to fit church doctrine and believing faith plus works saves a man
3. Understand the audience as being the twelve trives in a time period other than the Church Age
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
63
#10
Hm ... I would say that we cannot even boast about our faith ... I feel that faith is also gift from God.
IMO, it is definitely a gift. As written in 2 Thess 3:2 "... for all men have not faith." While all have a measure of faith (Eph 4:7), which is part of, but not the whole of faith (Rom 12:3) since simply believing is not faith, James 2:19, seeing it is written "... the devils also believe, and tremble." Faith believes all things (1 Cor 13:7), but not that all things are true, but that the might possibly be true (Mark 9:23)

It is written in 1 John 4:1, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God:" While most will hold that is saying to try the person, to see if they are godly, one might consider the possibility that it is instructing that one should not believe every word, (John 6:63) but try the words whether they are of truth considering what is written in Matthew 7:6.

Of course , Proverbs 14:15 indicates what happens to those are saved in 1 Tim 2:4 seeing that one inherits, while another is crowned as written in Prov 14:18.

Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1 Peter 1:10
 
Last edited:
R

RobbyEarl

Guest
#11
we are justified by the work of the cross and our faith in it and not by what we do. If it's what we do then it's not grace, it is merit.
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
63
#12
The question that James is answering is not will true faith have evidence, but, can faith save him v14. Students of Scripture have never been successful trying to make James' Jewish epistle fit into Paul's epistles. There are three options:

1. Force James to fit Paul through crafty reasoning and explanation, not taking the Scripture at face value
2. Force James to fit church doctrine and believing faith plus works saves a man
3. Understand the audience as being the twelve trives in a time period other than the Church Age
But sanctify the LORD in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 1 Peter 3:15

While it is written in John 17:17, "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." Is it your word that is true, or Christ's word that is true?
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
63
#13
we are justified by the work of the cross and our faith in it and not by what we do. If it's what we do then it's not grace, it is merit.
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. Matt 12:37
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,614
3,529
113
#14
But sanctify the LORD in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 1 Peter 3:15

While it is written in John 17:17, "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." Is it your word that is true, or Christ's word that is true?
The word of God is always true. I'm one of "those" who believe every word is true and without error.
 
R

RobbyEarl

Guest
#15
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. Matt 12:37

It's not what goes into a man that defiles Him but rather what comes out for from the heart the mouth speaks.
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
63
#16
The word of God is always true. I'm one of "those" who believe every word is true and without error.
Agreed. The LORD is a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,034
13,041
113
58
#17
The question that James is answering is not will true faith have evidence, but, can faith save him v14.
Can THAT faith save him (James 2:14). An empty profession of faith cannot save this hypothetical person because it is not genuine faith, but dead faith. Keep in mind that James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to SHOW the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

Students of Scripture have never been successful trying to make James' Jewish epistle fit into Paul's epistles. There are three options:

1. Force James to fit Paul through crafty reasoning and explanation, not taking the Scripture at face value
2. Force James to fit church doctrine and believing faith plus works saves a man
3. Understand the audience as being the twelve trives in a time period other than the Church Age
I have already properly harmonized scripture with scripture in post #8. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 4:2-6; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
63
#18
It's not what goes into a man that defiles Him but rather what comes out for from the heart the mouth speaks.
Exactly, we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth. Matt 15:18-19