Dear 'BibleGuy' . . .

[JGIG]

Dear 'BibleGuy',

So BibleGuy - your individual posts have so many random points that one cannot comprehensively reply to each of your points without exceeding the 20,000 character limit per post here at CC.

I thought it would be a good idea to answer in a thread dedicated to your assertions, instead of folks seeing you post your assertions here and there and perhaps missing the responses that refute them. Feel free to participate here or not. As I have time and see your posts, I can always quote them here (or you can put them here yourself) and respond to them.

We've talked about bantering in the forums, and as my time is limited, I've not been able to dive in. This week I may have a bit of time, however, and instead of having my time and efforts buried in threads elsewhere, I thought it would be prudent for us and for any readers here who are interested in the concept of Torah obedience for Christians to see our discourse in a separate thread which they can choose to read or ignore.

I will request, if you choose to post in this thread, that you pare your posts down to one or two points, or at least a single train of thought without pontificating at length about your entire belief system in each post.

This is a discussion - a going back and forth. I know from seasoned experience with Torah folk that the tendency is for them to go on and on and on, throwing a wall of Scripture references pulled out of context with their interpretation to 'prove' their position. That method operates from a weak position, not being able to develop support for their beliefs using contextual Scripture showing how the asserted point is supported.

While I appreciate the organized layout of your posts (numbered points), most will skip right over your posts and lengthy responses to them because they are just too darn long.

I've also noticed that you say the same thing over and over, citing but not posting Scripture, assuming that folks will just swallow your interpretation for the out of context references that you put out there.

So, for the random, brave reader who chooses to climb this mountain, following is a first example of our interactions, and this will serve as a thread where BibleGuy can bring his assertions that I've not had the chance to respond to in other threads if he likes.

Grace and peace,
-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

AND, Christ points us straight back to the law!

1. The Torah is not abolished (Mt. 5:17).

2. The Torah-laden prophets are not abolished (Mt. 5:17).

3. Torah persists until after heaven/earth pass away (Mt. 5:18)...and this hasn't happened yet. (look outside...the earth is still here!)​

Torah has not ceased to exist.

As a functioning, valid covenant, however, it is obsolete in Christ and His Work of the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and His Perfect, Permanent, High Priesthood.

Those who are in Christ are dead to the Law (Rom. 7:4-6).

Christ (of the Tribe of Judah) has been appointed as the Perfect Permanent High Priest of the New Covenant by an oath from God, replacing the Levitical priesthood, again, rendering the Old Covenant obsolete.

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

4. Our Torah-obedience and Torah-teaching determines our position in the coming kingdom (Mt. 5:19).

5. Our Torah-obedient works of righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees (Mt. 5:20).
​

​

Have you achieved perfection yet?

​

Because that is the standard that Jesus sets forth in Matthew 5. Be ye perfect as God in heaven is perfect. If you don't achieve that standard, well, your own doctrine condemns you.

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

6. Religious people who are against Torah will be cast away (Mt. 7:21-23) or even worse (Mt. 13:41-42).

​

Nope. They don't come close to your interpretation.

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ (from Mt. 7)

41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (from Mt. 13)
​

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

7. Jesus prayed we be sanctified by Torah (Jn. 17:17).

​

Logos refers to the Living Word, Christ, Who is God incarnate, not to Torah, which is merely part of the written Scriptures (G1124 - graphē).

17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word [G3056 - logos] is truth. (from Jn. 17)
​

​

​

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

8. Jesus said we should love God (Mt. 22:37 applies Dt. 6 to us) by obeying all Torah commands (Dt. 6:25).

​

The New Covenant says that we love God because He first loved us. God does not demand that which He does not provide. While love is a command, it's also a Fruit of His Spirit, which He produces in those who are in Christ; we bear the Fruit that He produces (1 Jn. 4, Gal. 5).

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

9. Our eternal life depends upon obedience to law (Lk. 10:25-28).


​

We're back to the standard of perfection required of the Law, yes? Obeying every commandment that applies to you 100% of the time? That is the standard that Jesus sets forth, yes?

​

Tell us, how were the recent festivities in Jerusalem this past April? I hear it's lovely there this time of year! Did you bring your sacrifice to Jerusalem? If Torah Law is still in force, there must be an active Levitial Priesthood through whom you can present your sacrifices and offerings to God, yes? It's not like Levites can't be located today:http://www.templeinstitute.org/red_heifer/levitical_priests.htm

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

10. Jesus said we live by Torah (Mt. 4:4 referencing Dt. 8:3 which refers to Torah).


​

Again, you err in assigning 'Torah' where a living expression of God's Word is defined:

4 Jesus answered, “It is written:‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” (from Mt. 4)


​

The Greek for 'word' in that verse is G4487 - rhēma, which is the living voice, or word, of God, not the Torah, or 'graphe' of God, which is part of the written Scriptures (see above). One could easily couple Mt. 4:4 with

39 You search the Scriptures [G1124 - graphē] because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. (from Jn. 5)​

And this:

63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words [G4487 - rhēma] I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” (from Jn. 6)​

And what were they not believing?

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” (from Jn. 6)​

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

11. Jesus upheld the Psalms (Jn. 10:34-35) as Scripture which can NOT be broken. AND, the Psalms require Torah-obedience (Ps. 1; Ps. 19; Ps. 119; etc...)

​

The Psalms require obedience to the covenant in force at the time. Torah just means instructions, yes? The instructions about how to enter into and stay in covenant with God are quite different from the Abrahamic to the Sinaitic to the New Covenants.

Context means everything. Before the Cross, for Israel, the Sinaitic Covenant (Old Covenant) was in effect, and obedience to its decrees was mandatory or the penalty was death - yours or that of a substitutional sacrifice, depending on the offense.

After the Cross, the New Covenant, ratified by the Blood of Christ, God Himself in the flesh, is in effect, rendering the Old Covenant obsolete, and is entered into by faith and maintained by our Perfect, Permanent High Priest, Christ Jesus.

The New Covenant is a fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant, fulfilling the pattern of God making the covenant with Himself, with it being an unconditional covenant (unlike the Sinaitic covenant, which has gobs of conditions), and where He holds up the covenant with His Work. We simply enter in by faith.

The entire letter to the Hebrews clarifies and instructs on both the superiority of the New Covenant in Christ (based on better promises) and the obsolescence of the Old Covenant.

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

12. Jesus inaugurated the New Covenant in which Torah is written upon our hearts (Jer. 31:33). That which is written upon our hearts should be obeyed (not ignored as if it no longer applies!) See Dt. 30:14 for confirmation.


​

Torah, God's instructions before the Cross, were given to Israel at Sinai in the form of the Law.

Torah, God's instructions after the Cross, were given to all mankind by Christ: Believe on the One God sent and love one another.

Do you live before or after the Work of Christ?

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

13. The Spirit and flesh are contrasted (Rom. 8:6-7). The flesh can not obey God's law. Thus, the Spirit (by contrast) leads us to obey the law!

​

The whole of Romans 8 does not support your assertion, and Galatians 5 clearly tells us that your assertion is in error, for if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law (Gal. 5:18).

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

Let's get back to the law which Scripture requires we faithfully obey!

blessings...
Bibleguy


​

Those who are in Christ and go back to the Law walk in Spiritual adultery, having died to the Law in order to be joined to Christ:

4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.

5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. (from Rom. 7)


​

So you're teaching folks to go back to that which stirs up sin and bears fruit unto death, when those in Christ have been released from the Law so that we serve in the NEW WAY of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

It really does not get much clearer than that.

You can read more on that subject in these two articles:

• Released/Delivered From the Law and Christ is the End of the Law – Getting Greeky About Romans 7, 10, and Ephesians 2

• Romans 7:1-6 and Spiritual Adultery

Grace and peace to you,
-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Originally Posted by JGIG

Hi BibleGuy,

Welcome to CC .

I have a question for you:

• Who is the current, Permanent, Perfect High Priest, appointed by an oath from God, according to Scripture?

-JGIG

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

Hello JGIG,

Of course Jesus is the High Priest...of the order of Melchizedek.

Now, a question for you!

Where do the prophets GUARANTEE restoration of the Levitical/sacrificial/ceremonial priesthood?

Ok...I can't resist...I'll tell you! Dt. 30:1-8; Zec. 14:16-21; Mal. 3; Is. 66:21-22; Jer. 33:17-21; Eze. 40-47.

Ready or not....the sacrifices are coming back, baby!

It will be AWESOME to serve YHVH in greater fullness when these prophecies come to pass!

For then, we will also receive our inheritance in the land, as coheirs of the inheritance given to Abraham.

The kingdom WILL be restored to Israel once again.

Exciting times...

blessings...
BibleGuy​

From JGIG:
Thank you for clarification about what you believe.

But your answer about the High Priesthood is incomplete. You mention the order of Melchizedek, but don't mention the Tribe Jesus belongs to.

You of course, with your level of Bible study, know that Christ Jesus is of the Tribe of Judah.

Which presents some problems for the sacrificial system which you are so gleefully are looking forward to.

• Scripture tells us that Christ is the Perfect, FOREVER High Priest, appointed by an oath from God.

• Christ's High Priesthood is not going away.

• The letter to the Hebrews tells us that the Tribe of Judah cannot legally serve in the Old Covenant - New Priesthood, New Law (Heb. 7-10).

• Please explain to us how the Levitical and the High Priesthood of Christ will simultaneously exist.

• Please explain to us Christ's role in the system you assert.

• Please explain to us using contextual Scripture why you think God will accept animal and other sacrifices in light of Christ's Perfect, Once for all, sacrifice. What is still needed to make folks acceptable before God? Remember - use CONTEXTUAL Scripture which takes into account the Work of Christ.

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

Ready or not....the sacrifices are coming back, baby!

It will be AWESOME to serve YHVH in greater fullness when these prophecies come to pass!​

From JGIG:

• How is operating in an obsolete covenant serving God in 'greater fullness', when the Scriptures are clear that the New Covenant is superior in every way to the Old Covenant?

• 'Greater fullness' - what does that mean, exactly? Please use Scripture.

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

Ready or not....the sacrifices are coming back, baby!
​

From JGIG:
Perhaps sacrifices are coming back - indeed there are those who have a Temple ready to assemble, Levitical priestly garb ready to go, and Levites in line to serve in the Temple.

And if it happens, it will NOT be of God.

If sacrifices happen in a Temple in Jerusalem, it will be an absolute abomination to God, Who has rendered the sacrificial and Temple system obsolete in Christ, making Him the Perfect, Permanent High Priest of the New Covenant, which is built on better promises (see the entirety of the letter to the Hebrews).

The New Covenant is a covenant of LIFE, not a covenant of DEATH (see 2 Cor. 3).

8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.”He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”


17 Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”


18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.

19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.

23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching. (from Heb. 10)
_______________________________________

11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood—why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek,not in the order of Aaron?

12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.

13 He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. 14 For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.

15 And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16 one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is declared:

“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.” (from Heb. 7)


18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:

“The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
‘You are a priest forever.’”


22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant.
​

• Please explain to us how it's a good idea to bring back a weak and useless covenantal system when we have Christ, Who is the guarantor of a better covenant built on better promises.

-JGIG

 

[RobbyEarl]

The priest hood of the sons of Aaron is gone and is no more and will never be reinstated. In Leviticus God said that the day the priest tars his clothes I will tear the priest hood from you. When Jesus stood before Caiaphas He tore His clothes. We will be Priest in the new kingdom and not the sons of Aaron.

 

[JGIG]

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

Hi again,

Lots of awesome points....thank you!

Only two points I saw worth bringing out here for additional emphasis/correction.

You wrote: "...the law...is profitable for our instruction in righteousness..."

My response: Yes! That's why we must do TORAH-OBEDIENT works of righteousness, not TORAH-DISOBEDIENT works.

Sounds like maybe we agree now that we should obey Torah?​

Quite a leap there, BG. Yeah . . . um, NO.

8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.

9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me. (from 1 Tim. 1)​

Scripture tells us that those in Christ are righteous in Him, therefore the Law is not for those in Christ:

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. (from Rom. 3)

21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (from 2 Cor. 5)


​

Indeed, if you are in Christ, you are dead to the Law:

4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ,so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead,in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. (from Rom. 7)
​

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

But then you wrote: "We can follow the whole law and try to find a goat to sacrifice or we can rely on the work of the cross..."

My response: Why force the choice between one or the other?

We will do both!

Many priests became faithful disciples of Messiah (Ac. 6:7), but they were still priests! They continued to function as priests in the temple, complete with sacrifices and all.

Paul even participated in ceremonial/sacrificial activity (Ac. 21)...we should imitate that Pauline model of submission to ceremonial/sacrificial activity, where and when possible (1 Cor. 11:1; Php. 4:9).

The Old Covenant was ready (Heb. 8:13, "engoos") to pass away as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews...thereby confirming that Old Covenant Torah functions even in the New-Covenant-era.

​

Hebrews was written before the destruction of the Temple, that's why the 'waxing old and ready to pass away' language is used. As for your "engoos" - where are you getting that word? It does not appear as any of the Greek words in Hebrews 8:13, nor can I find it as a Greek word at all in a general search. Please cite your source for "engoos".

As for sacrifices being carried out after the Work of Christ - there were about 40 years - one generation - where God allowed the Temple practices to continue while the Gospel went out. After that, He allowed the destruction of the Temple (no stone left upon another) - a very clear message that the Old had become obsolete and the New was now firmly in place.

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

Moses guarantees our return to the land in obedience to ALL Torah commands (Dt. 30:1-8), and that includes Levitical/sacrificial/ceremonial activity.

Zechariah guarantees the GLOBAL requirement to send representatives to Israel to participate in the sacrifice-laden feast of Succot (Zec. 14:16-21).

Jeremiah guarantees that fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant will include restoration of Levitical sacrifices (Jer. 33:17-22).

Isaiah also guarantees (Is. 66:21-23) that Levitical sacrifices will be restored in the future.

Ezekiel also guarantees extensive restoration of Levitical sacrificial/ceremonial activity in the future (Eze. 40-47).

​

Um, no.

That's your interpretation of those Scriptures.

All Scripture should now be viewed through the lens of the finished Work of Christ. His Perfect, Permanent, High Priesthood allows for NONE of what you're asserting.

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

Jesus comes to RESTORE (not replace!) the Levitical sacrificial system so that it will again be pleasing to YHVH as it was in former years (Mal. 3:1-4).
​

Again, NO.

Hebrews 7 soundly refutes that notion:

​

11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood—why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek,not in the order of Aaron?

12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.

13 He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. 14 For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.

15 And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16 one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is declared:

“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”

18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:

“The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
‘You are a priest forever.’”


22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant. (from Heb. 7)​

God most certainly DID replace the Levitical priesthood, because perfection could not be attained through it or the Law, and God's standard is perfection. Perfection is attained when one comes into Christ, however (see Heb. 10 for this very Good News!).

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

John concurs that Levitical priestly activity will be evident throughout the Millennium (Rev. 20:5-6).

​

Wow. Again, NO. That's not at all what that says. John is speaking of those in Christ, not of the Levitical priesthood or its 'priestly activity'.

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

There is no good reason to force a choice between Levitical sacrificial activity and the "work of the cross".

​

Well, if you don't count the part where God installs Christ as a Priest Forever, from a DIFFERENT Tribe, ushering in the NEW Covenant which has NO MORE sacrifices because Christ was the PERFECT and FINAL and ONCE for ALL Sacrifice. If you leave all THAT out . . .

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

CONCLUSION: Why force a choice between Levitical sacrificial activity and the "work of the cross"...when the prophets guarantee that both will function simultaneously?

​

Levitical sacrificial activity after the Cross is an abomination to the Work of Christ and holding Him up to contempt, stating with the blood of bulls and goats that His Work wasn't enough.

No, BG, you are preaching a false gospel, and actual heresy according to the Scriptures.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

For example, remember (earlier in this thread, POST #42) when Grace777x70 was so excited about JGIG's post #40?

He recommended that EVERYONE go ahead and bookmark Post #40!

But then, when I gave a 24-point detailed rebuttal (Post #45), he (and JGIG...and everyone else) have yet to provide a response, here, to those detailed 24 objections which strongly disconfirm their anti-Torah position.

. . . . . . . . (long copy-paste repeat of previous posts) . . . . . . .

Blessings…
BibleGuy



Your objections and conclusions are based on your repeated use of Scriptures that don't say what you say they say or that are out of context.

You consistently attempt to apply Jesus' teaching of the Law to those under Law to New Covenant Believers who are dead to the Law. Then you twist the clear meaning of Rom. 7:1-6 into an interpretation about God being able to remarry Israel who He divorced. I'm well-versed in the teaching and have written an extensive refutation of that and other core teachings in the Law-keeping belief system. Those who are interested can go to the following page:

• Gateways into the Hebrew Roots Movement – An Examination of ‘Identity Crisis’ and Related Teachings of Jim Staley

Your teaching renders the Work of Christ and what it accomplished as nothing and is Torah-centric, not centered on Christ, which classifies what you teach as heresy.

I'm very pressed for time these past two days (one of our children is in treatment at St. Jude Children's Research Hospital and we're heading back for the week) - but I'll be back when I can - hopefully tomorrow evening.

It's a joy and a pleasure to defend the Gospel of Grace - the Work of Christ and all that it accomplished on our behalf and for the Kingdom \o/!

'Til we meet again ,
JGIG

 

[JGIG]

The priest hood of the sons of Aaron is gone and is no more and will never be reinstated. In Leviticus God said that the day the priest tars his clothes I will tear the priest hood from you. When Jesus stood before Caiaphas He tore His clothes. We will be Priest in the new kingdom and not the sons of Aaron.

And this:

5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. (from 1 Tim. 2)
​

There is ONE mediator between God and men - the system BibleGuy asserts would have many mediators - Levite priests and Christ - which goes completely contrary to both the New Covenant and the Scripture above which states there is ONE mediator, and He is Christ Jesus!

-JGIG

 

[RobbyEarl]

And this:

5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. (from 1 Tim. 2)
​

There is ONE mediator between God and men - the system BibleGuy asserts would have many mediators - Levite priests and Christ - which goes completely contrary to both the New Covenant and the Scripture above which states there is ONE mediator, and He is Christ Jesus!

-JGIG

Jesus is are only Priest. Can we find son's of Aaron today?

 

[JGIG]

Regarding sacrifices in a Millennial Kingdom . . .

Originally Posted by JGIG

I tried to copy here an article I wrote elsewhere about the Ezekiel passage, but it was a bit long. Here's the link:

​

Millennial Prophecy: Measuring Unrevealed Prophecies in Light of Revealed Truths​

I think you'll find that article and the links at the end to give you some food for thought .

It was written over five years ago, so some of the links may not work now, but a few of the key ones that I checked do.

-JGIG​

Originally Posted by crossnote

Some take the Temple sacrifices as commemorative rather than atoning...a possibility.
​

Understood. I'm not unfamiliar with the theory.

But the sacrifices God requires in the New Covenant are sacrifices of praise and thanksgiving from His Living Body, not dead animals on an altar. Also, the commemoration of the Sacrifice of Christ was given by Christ Himself - at the Last Supper. We commemorate - remember - His Work in the bread and the wine, not by offering sacrifices at an altar.

And since Christ's Priesthood is in eternal effect by an oath from God, the Old Covenant Priesthood is not coming back to officiate over sacrifices offered on an altar in a rebuilt temple. If man decides to do it anyway, it will not be sanctioned by God and will be an abomination and insult to the Work and High Priesthood of Christ, putting Him to shame.

No, any animal sacrifices are out, in light of the High Priesthood of Christ, Who is the ONLY Priest/Priesthood recognized by God in the New Covenant and Who is not legally able to oversee animal sacrifices required by the Law. Again, the Old Covenant is NOT coming back - Christ's Priesthood is PERMANENT by a OATH from God.

Couple that with NO animal sacrificial system in the New Covenant and you can see where I don't see how the Dispensational model is workable when considering the Permanent, Perfect High Priesthood of Christ (not to mention His once-for-all, for-all-time sacrifice).

The letter to the Hebrews is extremely clear on these points .

-JGIG

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

Hello JGIG,

You wrote: "Again, the Old Covenant is NOT coming back."

My response: You've never proven that the Old Covenant ever left!

Remember, Moses PROPHESIED that we would not obey 100% of Torah again until AFTER we return to the land (Dt. 30:1-8).

This prophecy is still unfulfilled.

It immediately disconfirms your viewpoint.

The return to the land (as promised to the fathers, cf. Dt. 6:10) will be fulfilled in conjunction with obedience to ALL Torah (Dt. 6:25). ​

Well since the Old Covenant isn't coming back and will never have a high priesthood in light of Christ's Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood, that's not going to happen.

Let's look at your Deuteronomy 6 passage, shall we?

10 When the Lord your God brings you into the land he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, to give you—a land with large, flourishing cities you did not build, 11 houses filled with all kinds of good things you did not provide, wells you did not dig, and vineyards and olive groves you did not plant—then when you eat and are satisfied, 12 be careful that you do not forget the Lord, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.


​

That first part is pointing to Grace - New Life apart from your own labor - rest in Christ. It's a type/shadow of the Reality we have in Christ in the New Covenant. The New Life we have in Christ is because of forgiveness we don't deserve and righteousness we didn't earn. Simply by entering in by faith we have New Life in Christ.

13 Fear the Lord your God, serve him only and take your oaths in his name. 14 Do not follow other gods, the gods of the peoples around you; 15 for the Lord your God, who is among you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land. 16 Do not put the Lord your God to the test as you did at Massah. 17 Be sure to keep the commands of the Lord your God and the stipulations and decrees he has given you. 18 Do what is right and good in the Lord’s sight, so that it may go well with you and you may go in and take over the good land the Lord promised on oath to your ancestors, 19 thrusting out all your enemies before you, as the Lord said.

20 In the future, when your son asks you,“What is the meaning of the stipulations, decrees and laws the Lord our God has commanded you?” 21 tell him: “We were slaves of Pharaoh in Egypt, but the Lord brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand. 22 Before our eyes the Lord sent signs and wonders—great and terrible—on Egypt and Pharaoh and his whole household. 23 But he brought us out from there to bring us in and give us the land he promised on oath to our ancestors.

24 The Lord commanded us to obey all these decrees and to fear the Lord our God, so that we might always prosper and be kept alive,as is the case today. 25 And if we are careful to obey all this law before the Lord our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness.”


​

Now compare that to what actually happens to those under the Law - Law actually stirs up sinning, so it can never be our righteousness. Note that in the Old Covenant righteousness was dependent on obedience to the Law - it's earned; in the New Covenant, righteousness is dependent on belief in Christ and is a gift.

​

The Law was given to prove to man what God already knew: man cannot ever be righteous enough by not sinning. In fact, after the Cross, God clarifies this for us:

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. (from Rom. 3)



​

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

And Jesus APPLIES Dt. 6 to you (Mt. 22:37).

​

Jesus applies the comand for us to Love in Matthew 22, not the Law given at Sinai.

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” (from Mt. 22)



​

And after the Cross, John defines just what the commandments of God are:

23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us. (from 1 Jn. 3)
​

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

So, it is QUITE puzzling to see you oppose these Scriptures.

best...
BibleGuy

​

I'm opposing nothing. Simply rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

-JGIG

​

 

[JGIG]

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

Hello JGIG,

1. You wrote: "Well since the Old Covenant isn't coming back and will never have a high priesthood in light of Christ's Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood, that's not going to happen."

My response: You ignored Dt. 30:1-8 which immediately disconfirms your position.

Is that how you reason? You ignore Scriptures which disconfirm your position?

Dt. 30:1-8 is NOT yet fulfilled. It PROMISES 100% future full Torah-obedience.

Why have you neglected to defend your position against Dt. 30:1-8?

You need to DEFEND your position (or else revise it), but you must not ignore Scripture...right?​

You continue to build your case founded on an obsolete covenant, but I'll play along.

I'm sure I typed that what you claim about Deut. 30:1-8 is YOUR interpretation, not what is actually said there. Guess it got lost in my editing. Vs. 1-8 are not the only verses in that chapter, are they? My Bible puts the verse count in Deut. 30 at 20 verses. Verse 16 clearly says,

"16 If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you today, by loving the Lord your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it."​

So if one continues to read in that chapter, it becomes clear that God's promise was completely dependent on Israel obeying the commandments that God gave them. It wasn't a promise "100% future full Torah-obedience", but rather a promise made on a condition.

The 'IF' did not happen; thus the 'THEN' did not happen.

Israel engaged in adultery and idolatry over and over and over - God, in His Mercy and Grace, preserved Her for His purposes and glory - mostly so that Messiah would be recognized when He came.

And Christ DID come, and now there is now a new Priesthood - the Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood of Christ. He is of the Tribe of Judah, and as such, it would be illegal for Him to mediate the Old Covenant. And since His Priesthood is Permanent by an oath from God, it is clear that the Old Covenant is NEVER coming back.

Some yahoos are building a temple and an altar and yes, there are some Levites who have kept track of their family lines, but if sacrifices are again offered in a temple in Jerusalem, they will NOT be sanctioned by God and will be an abomination to the Work of Christ and will be an insult to the Cross.

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

​

2. You missed the point regarding the land-promise given to Israel through Abraham. Again, this promise is to be fulfilled (Dt. 6:10) in conjunction with obedience to ALL Torah (Dt. 6:25), so that even if we disobey and are scattered to the ends of the earth, we will nevertheless return to YHVH and again obey 100% of Torah in the promised land (Dt. 30:1-8).

The point: Fulfillment of the land-promise to Israel through Abraham occurs IN CONJUNCTION WITH obedience to 100% of Torah. This is NOT yet fulfilled. Your position is disconfirmed.


​

Again, BibleGuy, not possible because of the Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood of Christ. Will Israel again possess that piece of geography? Well, the Bible says that every promise that God has made is yes and amen in Christ:
20 For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. And so through him the “Amen”is spoken by us to the glory of God. (from 2 Cor. 1)


So I have no doubt that God's promises will be fulfilled, but I do know it won't be through or "in conjunction with obedience to 100% of Torah."

Just like with so many other fulfillments of prophecy in the Bible, the fulfillment has not always matched up with what folks thought it should look like. Take the Pharisees, for instance. They knew Scripture inside and out - yet completely missed Messiah when He came. Likewise, you're missing what the Priesthood of Christ means:

​

12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also. 13 He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. 14 For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. 15 And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16 one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is declared:

“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”

18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:

“The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
‘You are a priest forever.’”

22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant. (from Heb. 7)

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

​

​

3. Yes, Jesus is "YHVH our Righteousness" (Jer. 23:6), even when He comes to bring us back to live in the land of Israel (Jer. 23:8). But this occurs in conjunction with 100% obedience to Torah (Dt. 30:1-8) as Jesus rules with justice (Heb. "mishpat", Jer. 23:5). And where is each "mishpat" of YHVH found? The written Torah of Moses (see "mishpat" in 1 Ki. 2:3) in which Jesus will be ruling!

And again, Jesus will be ruling in righteousness (Heb. "tsedekah", Jer. 23:5). And what are these ways of "tsedekah"? TORAH! (see "tsedekah" in Dt. 6:25).

Again, your position forces you to redefine "mishpat" and "tsedekah" in Jer. 23:5 to mean something CONTRARY to Jeremiah's Torah-obedient usage of the terms.

Your position is again disconfirmed.

​

Um, no, BibleGuy. And it's not 'my' position, but the Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood of Christ that you're taking issue with.

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

​

4. You wrote: "Simply by entering in by faith we have New Life in Christ."

My response: Sure...we are saved by grace through faith (not by mere faithless works of the law).

But there's more!

​

Yours is the classic 'Jesus +' equation of sooooo many false belief systems. "Jesus is good, BUT NOW YOU MUST . . . " to maintain that salvation. It's a fruitless path - a bunny trail that the Enemy puts so many on to keep them from living in the Rest of Christ and bringing others into the Kingdom. They're far too busy trying to keep whatever circle of Law some false teacher has put around them.

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

Jesus requires that we exemplify Torah-obedient righteousness (Mt. 5:20).

​

Jesus preached the Law to those born under the Law. We who are in Christ after His Work of the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and under His Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood have died to the Law (see Rom. 7:4-6). Torah has nothing to do with those who have died to it.

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

Righteousness is something we DO (Gr. "poieo", 1 Jn. 2:29) as evidence of having been born of Him.

AND, if you do not DO righteousness, THEN YOU ARE NOT OF GOD! (1 Jn. 3:10).

Are you of God? If so, then you DO righteousness! (1 Jn. 3:10)

​

According to Scripture, God, in Christ, has provided a righteousness APART from the Law (Torah):

21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. (from Rom. 3)


​

What is the work of God after the Cross? To believe on the One He sent and to love one another (1 Jn. 3:23-24). And Scripture tells us that love is the fulfillment of the Law - that if we're loving others, we are doing them no harm, and any of the laws that God still cares about from the Old Covenant are automatically obeyed by us simply loving one another.

It really is that simple. And even cooler is that God does not demand what He does not provide in His Grace - Love. We love because He first loved us (1 Jn. 4), and if we are led by the Spirit we are not under the Law (Gal. 5:18), and the Fruit of the Spirit is . . . yep . . . Love. And joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; all those things are subsets of love, and Scripture adds that against such things there is no law. That would include Torah.

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

​

And, faith (Gr. "pistis", Gal. 3:11) = faithfulness (Heb. "emunah", Hab. 2:4, which Paul quoted at Gal. 3:11).

And what is this way of "emunah" by which Paul said we live? Torah! (see "emunah" in Ps. 119:30,86,138)

Thus Paul has us admonishing one another with the Psalms (Col. 3:16). Thus, I admonish you to obey the Torah of the Psalms, just as Paul requires that I admonish you.

So we who are of faith OBEY Torah.

​

Gee you went to all that trouble to use a definition of pistis that contextually does not fit in Gal. 3:11 when all you had to do was to read Gal. 3:12 -

11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” 12 The law is not based on faith;


​

Same Greek word for faith there, 'pistis' which can mean faithfulness (the last definition of several), but in this case it's not the quality of one's faith (faithfulness)but in Whom one puts their faith.

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

​

Let's stop pretending that righteousness is NOT something we do.

Sure, righteousness is something we receive by faith...but it's ALSO something we do. We must account for BOTH facets to the Scriptural revelation regarding righteousness.

​

Do you 'do' Fruit or do you bear Fruit?

Scripture tells us that the discipline of the Lord produces a harvest of righteousness. Sounds like a Fruit thing. Scripture also tells us that Grace teaches us to say no to ungodliness. It's a process that takes time, just like Fruit takes time to grow on the vine. It's not matter of 'do, do, do', but a matter of resting in and abiding in Christ, the True Vine, and letting Him produce His Fruit in and through us. Remember what Heb. 7 said . . . The Law made NOTHING perfect, because it was weak and useless, so a better way was introduced by which we draw near to God.

That working of Christ in us is His grace teaching us to say no to ungodliness and to live upright and righteous lives (see Titus 2).

I'll go with the better way in Christ rather than the weak and useless method to bear His Fruit and bring forth harvests of righteousness.

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

Remember Abraham? He was righteous by faith, but he ALSO obeyed Torah available to him (Ge. 26:5), and he commanded his family to do likewise (Ge. 18:19).

In fact, God blessed Abraham BECAUSE (Ge. 26:5) he obeyed the Torah available to him.

​

Keep telling yourself that. Abraham learned obedience through grace, not by the'Torah he had available to him.'

​

In its pure definition, Torah simply means instructions, so one could say that Abraham received instructions from God, just as Noah and others did before him. To say that he obeyed those instructions all the time, however, is to engage in a grievous misreading of Abraham's history. Abraham's righteousness was indeed a gift from God because he believed God - Abraham lied and cheated and disobeyed God on many occasions.

Yet God preserved him by His Grace and Mercy for His purposes. And eventually Abraham learned to trust God and saw God deliver on His promises. It was a life-long learning process on Abraham's part, and a life-long commitment of God investing in Abraham, being patient to bring about the fruit in Abraham He knew would come over time.

You're trying to turn what is a covenant of Grace regarding Abraham into a covenant of Law - and it is nothing of the sort.

(continued . . . )

 

[JGIG]

(. . . continued)

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

We should do likewise...being righteous by faith, AND also obeying the Torah of the covenants (Abrahamic, Mosaic, Levitical, Davidic, New) in which we participate.

Why would you oppose Torah, when it is transferred directly into the New Covenant? (see "Torah", Jer. 31:33).​

Yeah, no. Again, if you would just take the time to look at the few verses around the one you're quoting out of context, you'd see that's not the case:

32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,”
declares the Lord. (from Jer. 31)


​

Since Jeremiah could not see the Work of the Cross from where he sat, God left it to the Apostles to clarify what His Law would be after the Cross: To believe on the One He sent and to love one another (1 Jn. 3:23-24).

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

​

​

Why oppose Torah, when it is GUARANTEED to be restored, in accordance with the Prophets, and in greater forthcoming fulfillment of the Torah-laden covenants in which we participate?

Yikes!

Defend your position, or change it.

​

BibleGuy, that's your interpretation, which is faulty for the many reasons listed above. Contextual Scripture defends my position. The Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood defends my position. Type 'yikes' all you want - my position is a secure one.

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

5. You wrote: "Law actually stirs up sinning, so it can never be our righteousness."

My response: Sure, law without faith results in sin...so law without faith does NOT result in righteousness.

But there's more!

Jesus plainly said that we should exemplify works of Torah-obedient righteousness (Mt. 5:20).


​

Jesus was preaching the Law to those born under the Law before the Cross. After the Cross God's Law was to believe on the One He sent and for us to love one another.

​

Also -

12 The law is not based on faith; (from Gal. 3)


56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. (from 1 Cor. 15)

5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. (from Rom. 7)

20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. (from Rom. 5)
​

Not to mention that

21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.(from Rom. 3)​

Torah obedience has ZERO to do with righteousness after the Cross. ZERO. That passage doesn't say that God's righteousness is obtained/attained by faithful Torah-obedience. God's righteousness has been manifested APART from the Law. If you insist on obtaining/attaining righteousness through the Law, Paul is talking about you here:

2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (from Rom. 10)

​

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

Zacharias and Elizabeth were righteous and blameless in their Torah-obedience (Lk. 1:6).
​

Paul also said he, 'as to righteousness under the Law, was blameless according to the Law (see Phil. 3). Yet he admitted to struggling with the sin of coveting (see Rom. 7), so while blameless according to what the Law pointed to outwardly, Paul knew that his righteousness by the Law was as filthy rags - it didn't deal with his heart, and he says this in Phil. 3 -

7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.


​

We know that Christ preached the spiritual aspects of the Law - murder is against the Law, but even hate another and you're as guilty as if you had murdered them. Paul recognized that though blameless under the Law, righteousness still was not obtained/attained. No, the righteousness that comes from God (and is apart from the Law) is a gift, given when we put our faith in Christ!

​

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

Again, Jesus said we live by Torah (Mt. 4:4; citing Dt. 8:3, referencing Torah). He never said it was impossible!

​

No, that's not what Christ said.

​

4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” (from Mt. 4)

​

The Greek there is 'rhema', not 'nomos', which is the Greek word used for 'Law' or 'Torah' in the NT. Heck, a case might even be made if the author had used the Greek 'graphe' which means written Scriptures, but he didn't, he used 'rhema', meaning spoken, leading word of God, not the written Scriptures of Torah.

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

Again, we obey Torah and we LIVE (see "live" in Dt. 30), and guess what? Paul cites Dt. 30 FAVORABLY, applying it to YOU in Rom. 10:8. Yes! Faithful Torah-obedience IS the word of faith which Paul preached (hence his favorable citation of Dt. 30:14 at Rom. 10:8).


​

Every time I look at what the Scripture you cite actually says, it proves to say the opposite of what you claim!

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; (from Rom. 10)​

Again, the Greek there is 'rhema', not 'nomos' or 'graphe', and it's identified as the"word of faith". We know from Galatians 3:12 that "the Law is not of faith", so Paul (same writer) is not saying that Torah-obedience is the word of faith.

What you're preaching here is simply contrary to what Scripture clearly states at every turn.

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

Again, Moses said Torah-obedience is NOT too difficult (Dt. 30:11), thereby confirming that we CAN walk in Torah-obedient righteousness per Dt. 6:25.

Did Jesus say: "Hey guys....read Dt. 6:4-5 BUT IGNORE THE CONTEXT!"

Of course not! Therefore, you can't cut Dt. 6:4-5 out of the Torah and impose a foreign meaning upon it simply to accommodate your anti-Torah theology.

Jesus APPLIED Dt. 6 to YOU (Mt. 22:37), context and all.



​

Yet you ignore the big fat IF in Deut. 6:25 (you know, part of the context of that passage) -

​

25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the Lord our God, as he hath commanded us.​

(continued . . . )

 

[JGIG]

( . . . continued)

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

In fact, Jesus said Torah-obedience is a sufficient condition of eternal life (Lk. 10:25-28), again disconfirming your position.


​

And Jesus also pointed out to each and every one who claimed they kept the Law exactly where they fell short. Again, Jesus preached the Law to those born under the Law. He was telling them, "Here is the Law, but not the watered down Law you've been taught - here's the full weight of what the Law requires", and NO ONE could measure up. That was the point!

​

20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. (From Rom. 3)


​

BUT Jesus also preached the New Covenant coming in His Blood - and John 3 and many, many other passages are clear about what gains us entrance into eternal life.

​

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

Of course we are not righteous by FAITHLESS works of the law. But we are COMMANDED to exemplify FAITHFUL works of the law. STOP confusing these two!


​

I'm not confusing anything. I'm stating that we who are in Christ are dead to the Law. Whether you have faith or not when 'doing' the Law, they are dead works. I'm not confused in the least about that.

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

We all know Paul opposes FAITHLESS Torah-obedience (Gal. 5:4-5). Moving on now....

Let's stop ignoring the Pauline passages which confirm that Paul taught FAITHFUL Torah-obedience.


​

There is no teaching from Paul that mandates Torah obedience for believers. And again, Paul, in Gal. 3:12, tells us that the Law is not of faith, so your point is, well, pointless.

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

Paul said those who obey the law will be justified (Rom. 2:13), AND Paul has Gentile believers OBEYING TORAH (Rom. 2:26) as a pointed rebuke against circumcised people who fail to obey it properly.
​

So what use for the Cross then? No need for Christ to be crucified and shed His Blood if it's all about faithfully obeying Torah, right? There would be no need for the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension and the Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood of Christ. Yet those things did happen and are in place, rendering the Old Covenant obsolete.

Romans 2 is showing not how or that Torah Law can be kept, but that the Law stands against every person, Jew or Gentile. The chapter, read in context, proves that no one will be justified by the Law. Indeed, Romans 3:20 (cited above) confirms this!

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

And what is "sin"? TORAH-DISOBEDIENCE (Rom. 3:20; 7:7).

Paul taught we should NOT sin (Rom. 6:15), which means we should NOT disobey Torah, which means we should OBEY TORAH!

So why oppose the Torah which Paul taught us to obey (through his command to "not sin")?

Wow....you've got LOTS of explainin' to do!


​

Whatever is not of faith is sin (from Rom. 14). And for those in Christ, when they do sin, whether from lack of faith or acting contrary to love (for love fulfills the parts of the Law that God still cares about, see Rom. 13), God is not counting our sins against us because where there is no law (because in Christ we've died to it, see Rom. 7:4-6), sin is not imputed (Rom. 4).

​

For you it seems to be all about sin; for God it's all about caring for and growing His children up into the maturity of who they are in Christ. The more Christlike we become, the less sinning there is. Torah is not a part of the equation, as the Law stirs up and is the power of sin (see references above).

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

6. You cite 1 Jn. 3:23-24, claiming: "And after the Cross, John defines just what the commandments of God are."

My response: Nice try...now read again. We should love one another AS HE COMMANDED US (1 Jn. 3:23).

Therefore, Mt. 28:20 is STILL IN FORCE!

Mt. 28:20 applies all of Jesus' Torah-obedient PRE-CROSS teachings to disciples of all nations.



​

Sigh. You're beating a dead horse, BibleGuy. Mt. 28:20 does not cite the whole of Torah Law. If Jesus were stating that, He would have said to obey everything Mosescommanded them.

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

So, if we truly love one another as Jesus requires, then we make disciples of all nations in obedience to ALL that Jesus commanded.

AND, what do true disciples of Jesus do? CONTINUE IN JESUS' WORDS (Jn. 8:31) so that we may never see death (Jn. 8:51).

AND, what are Jesus' words?



​

I always love when I go to the Greek and find that God has so orchestrated the Gospel in such a fashion that it always, Always, ALWAYS is clear! The Greek for 'words' in Jn. 8:51 is 'logos' - not 'nomos' or 'graphe' (used for Torah or Scriptures).

​

Jesus was NOT pointing folks to Torah, but to HIMSELF.

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

That our Torah-obedience and Torah-teaching DETERMINES our position in the coming kingdom (Mt. 5:19).

That Jesus AUTHORIZES Torah-teachers (Gr. "grammateus", Mt. 23:34) to properly represent His Torah-obedient (Mt. 23:23) Torah-teaching (Mk. 7:8-9) ministry.

That Jesus sends away religious people who are anti-Torah (exemplifying "anomia", lawlessness, Mt. 7:21-23).

That Jesus warns that those who cause Torah-disobedience ("anomia") may suffer a fiery fate (Mt. 13:41-42).


​

Jesus preached the Law to those under the Law before the Cross. Your point is again, pointless, because we live after the Cross, not before the Cross. There is a New Covenant with a New, Perfect, Permanent High Priest. We have a better way by which to draw near to God (see Heb. 7)!

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

We disciples should thus IMITATE this walk of Torah-obedience (Lk. 6:40; 1 Jn. 2:6), NOT OPPOSE IT!



​

We don't imitate the Law-teaching Jesus, we bear the Fruit of the Crucified, Risen High Priest, Christ, and that Fruit is Love, which is what Jesus commanded as the New Commandment:

34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”(from Jn. 13)​

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

Again, your position is disconfirmed by a WIDE range of Scriptural considerations (most of which I've scarcely begun to share with you).

But I'm now concerned my message is "too long" in your opinion....and you'll be too busy...and you'll not fully engage.....just like before.


​

I think I've found a solution for that . . . details coming soon . . . [This thread, Dear 'BibleGuy . . . is the solution ]

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

Remember the 39 issues you have not yet answered? -----> House of Cornelius and the law

Sigh....

Just trying to help you...and the readers too!


​

I'll get to it. Patience.

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

CONCLUSION: Will you now defend your position against the Scriptural objections I've raised?

Trust me...I'll be your GREATEST fan if you show me how your position is better than mine....

I'm simply seeking truth wherever I can find it...I'm NOT afraid to change my position, following the truth wherever it leads...and I wasn't raised in this position....I was FORCED (by the evidence) to move to the position I now embrace....this requires a measure of humility that many are afraid to exemplify....are you willing to engage?

And if you can't, then why would you persist in setting forth a position that neither you (nor anyone else you know) can defend?

blessings...
BibleGuy



​

Whether you will admit it or not, my position is well-defended using contextual Scripture with the Work and High Priesthood of Christ in full view.

Grace and peace,
-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

So, BibleGuy - about those 39 'issues', and I think you referred to a 'list of 24' before that!

Remember - 20,000 characters per post .

How 'bout you go to your lists and pick a few at a time, and we'll go from there, eh?

Grace and peace,
-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

So I found that list of 24 issues . . .

I'll take a few at a time. I may or may not get to them all tonight:

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

Hello JGIG,

Thanks for writing...

Let's take a look at your comments...lots of issues (24 in fact) on the table right now!

1. You wrote: "Torah has not ceased to exist. As a functioning, valid covenant, however, it is obsolete in Christ and His Work of the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and His Perfect, Permanent, High Priesthood. "

My response: Obsolete (Gr. verb "palaioo") but NOT yet passed away! Read again (Heb. 8:13), where it is merely READY (Gr. "engoos") to pass away, confirming that it had NOT yet passed away as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews.

Therefore, Torah is still in force, even during the New Covenant era, just as the remainder of Scripture also confirms.



​

Actually, there's truly only one issue on the table, and that is the Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood of Christ. The reality of Christ's High Priesthood is a pivotal fatal flaw (though there are others) in the Torah-centric belief system.

Hebrews tells us that the Old Covenant was 'waxing old and ready to pass away' because the Temple still stood at the time of the writing of the letter to the Hebrews. Yet the writer still made clear that the Old Covenant, in Christ, was NOW (then) obsolete.

Does the Law still stand in condemnation of man and of sin?

Absolutely. Paul calls it the 'covenant of death' in 2 Cor. 3!

Is Torah Law still in effect as a functioning covenental system?

Absolutely NOT.

• The Old Covnenat has no functioning priesthood, its priesthood has been replaced by a Perfect, Permanent High Priest, Christ, Who has been appointed by an oath from God.
• Christ offered His once-for-all, for-all-time Perfect Sacrifice - no more sacrifices need ever to be made.

Those two points ALONE render the Old Covenant obsolete as a functioning covenental system.

​

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

2. You wrote: "Those who are in Christ are dead to the Law (Rom. 7:4-6)."

My response: Keep reading! The law defines sin (Rom. 7:7; also Rom. 3:20; 1 Jn. 3:4). And Paul said we should NOT sin (Rom. 6:15). Thus we should NOT disobey Torah. Thus we should OBEY Torah!

​

So we become less dead to the Law later and earlier in Romans and in 1 John?

Please explain. Romans 7:4-6 clearly states,

4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.
​

And Galatians 2:19-21 clearly states,

19 “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”​

I pray that you would understand that you MUST be dead to the Law in order to live for, serve, bear fruit for God, and to overcome sin. I know it can feel counterintuitive, but Scripture is completely clear on the matter.

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

3. You wrote: "Christ (of the Tribe of Judah) has been appointed as the Perfect Permanent High Priest of the New Covenant by an oath from God, replacing the Levitical priesthood, again, rendering the Old Covenant obsolete."

My response: Learn from the prophets! Christ comes to RESTORE the Levitical priesthood so that it will be pleasing to YHVH as in former years (Mal. 3).

Moses (Dt. 30:1-8), Ezekiel (Eze. 40-47), Isaiah (Is. 66:21-23), Zechariah (Zec. 14:16-21), Jeremiah (Jer. 33:17-22) likewise GUARANTEE restoration of Levitical Torah.

So let's stop misleading others by claiming the Levitical priesthood was replaced.
​

If your interpretation of the above passages is correct, then Jesus wasted His Blood and His time and the letter to the Hebrews is a complete lie. There can only be one mediator between God and man:

5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. (from 1 Tim. 2)​

And God makes extremely clear that the mediator is not the Levitical priesthood, but Christ of the Tribe of Judah:

12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also. 13 He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. 14 For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. 15 And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16 one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is declared:

“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”


18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:

“The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
‘You are a priest forever.’”


22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant.​

You keep saying that Scripture guarantees the restoration of the Levitical priesthood. No, it doesn't. The Old Covenant has been set aside because it was weak and useless - it made nothing perfect. Jesus has become the Guarantor of a BETTER Covenant, the New Covenant.


Points 1-3 addressed.

-JGIG

 

[Angela53510]

I saw some of these posts by Bibleguy, and I just dismissed them as being Hebrew Roots and therefore false. I do appreciate you breaking this all down, so we can see exactly where BG went wrong.

Just to add a comment about the fall of the Temple in 70AD. Besides ending the Old Covenant, something else very important happened, showing that God would never allow sacrifices at a new temple.

The Romans razed the temple when the Jews refused to obey them. So every block was taken down and thrown apart. But before that happened, the temple and everything flammable caught fire and burned.

One of the most important things that got burned was the records of the genealogies. So the entire lineage of the Jews, carefully kept on scrolls from the time of Abraham were destroyed. These records were important for 2 reasons.

1. The line of Jesus was traced back to King David, which was part of the prophecies. Jesus had to be a descendent of David. So only 40 years after he died, all the genealogies were destroyed, meaning that no one could ever again claim to be the Messiah. Only Jesus could make this claim, because the records of his lineage were available for all to see.

2. The lineage of the priests and Levites were also burned. So although people could still claim by oral records that they were proper candidates for the priesthood, it could not be proved. God allowed those scrolls to be burned, which was something that totally sealed the door on a Levitical priesthood ever existing again.

Jesus is the only High priest, and in fact, we need no other.

"The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office,24 but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever.25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

26 For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. 27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. 28 For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever." Hebrews 7:23-28

I know JGIG mentioned these verses, but I think they are important enough to quote again, in context. Jesus has the only permanent priesthood, after the order of Melchizedek. He alone saves and makes intercession, and that is forever, because Jesus lives forever! He is the only perfect high priest, holy, innocent and unstained, separated from sinners.

He has NO NEED, like the former high priests to offer sacrifices daily - because he does not need to offer for himself, and as far as the people - he was the ultimate sacrifice on the cross.

We do NOT need a reestablishment of the Levitcial priesthood with their impure, weak sacrifices, because we have JESUS!!

Praise the the Son! Praise God for his sacrifice on Calvary, which was the final, once for all sacrifice. So if some misguided fools build a temple and offer sacrifices, it will be a stench in the nostrils of God - who sent his only Son as the once for all time sacrifice for sin.

"But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified." Hebrews 10:13-15

My suggestion, BibleGuy, is that you sit down with a modern version of the New Testament and read Hebrews through about 5 times. Read the truth, instead of this terrible heresy you have been trying to pass off as Biblical. Because your words say over and over that Jesus sacrifice on the cross was not enough! And there is no heresy worse than saying the Son of God dying on the cross was not enough to atone for all our sins.

 

[ukok102nak]

as it is written
:read:
Galatians 6:2
Help carry each other's burdens. In this way you will follow Christ's teachings.
3*So if any one of you thinks you're important when you're really not, you're only fooling yourself.
4*Each of you must examine your own actions. Then you can be proud of your own accomplishments without comparing yourself to others.
5*Assume your own responsibility.
6*The person who is taught God's word should share all good things with his teacher.
7*Make no mistake about this: You can never make a fool out of God. Whatever you plant is what you'll harvest.

:ty:

godbless us all always

 

[JGIG]

​.

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

4. You wrote: "Have you achieved perfection yet?

Because that is the standard that Jesus sets forth in Matthew 5. Be ye perfect as God in heaven is perfect. If you don't achieve that standard, well, your own doctrine condemns you."

My response: Do YOU obey Matthew 5:48? Please learn from it.

MATTHEW 5:48 Jesus clearly views Pentateuchal Scripture as authoritative and applicable to Christians, as evidenced by His use of Ge. 1:27, Ex. 3:6, Ex. 20:12, Ex. 21:17, Lev. 19:18, Lev. 20:9, Nu. 21:9, Dt. 5:16, Dt. 6:4-5, Dt. 6:13, Dt. 6:16, Dt. 8:3, Dt. 10:20, and Dt. 19:15. Deuteronomy 18:13 shows that people should be blameless/complete/perfect (Heb. “tamim”, LXX “teleios”). Jesus also explicitly affirms that people should be perfect (Gr. “teleios”, Mt. 5:48). People who are “tamim” walk in obedience to the Torah (Ps. 19:7; Ps. 119:1). It follows that Jesus accepts that Christians should walk in obedience to the Torah.
​

Let's see what Mt. 5:48 actually says:

48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

​

So . . . name one person, other than Christ Who IS God, who has achieved perfection via the Law. Not just blamelessness, which is the outward appearance of keeping the Law, but someone who is PERFECT as GOD is PERFECT.

Because perfection is the standard that Christ preached.

Name just one.

Now what about God's righteousness which has been made known - apart from the Law?

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. (from Rom. 3)
​

What does Scripture have to say about being perfect after the Cross?

14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. (from Heb. 10)
​

​

By Torah-obedience we're made perfect? Is that what it says?

No, by one sacrifice, Who is Christ, he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. God's righteousness is a gift that is given through faith in Christ, not earned by Torah-obedience.

Again, the assertions you're making are contrary to Scripture.

​

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

5. You wrote: “Nope. They don't come close to your interpretation.”

My response: What? Read again! Jesus sends religious people AWAY from Him…why? Because they exemplify LAWLESSNESS (Gr. “anomia”, Mt. 7:21-23). The punishment for “anomia” is very severe in Mt. 13:41-42 as well.

So why do you oppose the law, claiming Levitical Torah is replaced?

Please, I don’t want you to be guilty of “anomia”. Stop opposing Scriptural teaching regarding Levitical Torah.
​

I'm not opposing Torah, just keeping Torah in its proper place in light of Christ, His Work, and His Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood.

There is no question that the Levitical Torah has been set aside and replaced by the New Covenant:

18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God. (from Heb. 7)
​

​

And there is only one Mediator between God and man, and He's not a Levite, and His Priesthood is Permanent:

5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. (from 1 Tim. 2)
​

20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:

“The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
‘You are a priest forever.’”

22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant. (from Heb. 7)​

Again, this is not preaching against the Law, but keeping the Law in its proper place in light of the Work and Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood of Christ.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

.

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

6. You wrote: “Logos refers to the Living Word, Christ, Who is God incarnate, not to Torah, which is merely part of the written Scriptures (G1124 - graphē).”

My response: Jesus equates God’s word (Gr. “logos”, Mk. 7:13) with Torah (Mk. 7:9). So, when Jesus refers to YOUR WORD (when praying to God, Jn. 17:17), He is referring that which INCLUDES Torah (per Jesus’ own use of “logos” in, for example, Mk. 7:9-13).

​

No, He doesn't. If He were referring to Torah the Greek word 'nomos' (Law) or 'graphe' would have been used.

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

So let’s not pretend that God’s “word” in Jn. 17:17 somehow excludes Torah.

​

Let's take a look at John 17:17, along with some earlier verses in John, where the meaning for 'logos' (word) is established.

1 In the beginning was the Word [G3056, logos], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
​

Torah does not meet this description.

Torah is not God.

2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
​

Torah is not eternal; Jesus is.

Torah did not create all things; Jesus did.

Torah is not a 'him', it is a written history and set of laws.

Jesus is a 'Him', and is the full representation of God (see also Col. 1:15 and 2:9, and Heb. 1:3).

​

9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.
​

Torah's ministry was limited to Israel; Christ's ministry was light to everyone in the world, and His light is a gift to whosoever will believe, it is not earned.

10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.​

Again, Christ was the Creator; Torah is a written history and set of laws. Christ is a 'Him', not an 'it'.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.


​

The Son became flesh, a written history and set of laws did not become flesh. Torah is not the Son.

15 (John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”) 16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17 For the law [G3551 nomos] was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.​

Here we see that John uses the Greek, 'nomos' for Law, where John used 'logos' in reference to Christ earlier, indicating that there is a DIFFERENCE in the two. While the Law is a partial representation of God - a written history and set of laws given by God - Jesus is the exact representation, the full expression, the fullness of God, the visible image of the invisible God, the fullness of the Deity in bodily form (again, see Col. 1:15 and 2:9, and Heb. 1:3).

Torah does not measure up to and meet those criteria.

44 Philip, like Andrew and Peter, was from the town of Bethsaida. 45 Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about [G1125 graphō] in the Law [G3551 nomos], and about whom the prophets also wrote [G1125 graphō] —Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”​

Again, John is making clear here that Jesus was written about in the Law and the Prophets; He is NOT the Law and the Prophets. Logos, in the context of what John is saying here, is clearly NOT Torah, but God Himself.

Now to John 17:17, now that we've established what 'logos' means when John writes it, and that when he's referring to the Law he uses 'nomos':

Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word [G3056, logos] is truth.​

You wrote, "So let’s not pretend that God’s “word” in Jn. 17:17 somehow excludes Torah."

Let's not pretend that after Christ came that in that verse it did not exclude Torah! Let's also stop pretending that you're not trying to replace Christ with Torah.

If John had meant Torah in that verse, he would have used either 'nomos' or 'graphe', as he's shown he knows what they mean and has used them clearly in other passages in his writings.

No, John is quite clear in his use of 'logos', and it means Christ, not Torah.

Let's see what we find when we look for Who or what sanctifies the believer:

11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (from 1 Cor. 6)

10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (from Heb. 10)​

So it is clear that it is Christ Who sanctifies us, not Torah obedience.

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

Let’s not oppose Jesus’ OWN usage of the term “logos”. Jesus uses “logos” to refer to Torah.


​

It's been proven that 'logos', in context, does NOT refer to Torah, but to Christ Himself, especially in John's writings. Torah does not do any of the things you claim it does; Christ does.

​

Originally Posted by BibleGuy

Moreover, Jesus says the Psalms are Scripture (Gr. “graphe”, Jn. 10:34-35) which cannot be broken. And, Psalms require Torah (Ps. 1; Ps. 19; Ps. 119). And Torah requires Levitical sacrificial activity.

So again, we have found Jesus AFFIRMING the perpetuity (not replacement!) of Levitical Torah.​

The Psalms are Scripture, and referred to the Old Covenant in place at the time of their writing. One can go through the Psalms, reading them as people who live after the Cross and in the New Covenant and still gain much insight, understanding that God's commandments are no longer Torah Law, but now God's commandments, His instructions, His Torah after the Cross, is simply to believe on the One He sent and to love one another. Those are the laws written on our hearts in the New Covenant, which is NOT like the old - see Jer. 31:32 -

32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant, (from Jer. 31)​

We clearly have a New Covenant with a New High Priest, Christ Jesus. His Priesthood is Perfect and Permanent, rendering the Old Covenant, with its Levitical priesthood, obsolete.

-JGIG

 

[blue_ladybug]

How can BibleGuy get a word in edgewise on this thread, when you're dominating it with your own posts? Give the poor guy a chance to read all these, before you post a million more.. lol..

 

[Richie_2uk]

Jgig, breath, and let someone in your post. LOL