Lordahip salvation, nonstrawman version.

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Ariel82

Guest
#1
"That is not to suggest that we are justified because of our sanctification. We are not even justified "because" of our faith. Faith is the instrument of our justification, not the ground of it.

The righteousness of Christ—not any work done by the believer or wrought by God in the sinner—is the true ground of our justification. In other words, God gives us a righteous standing only because of the perfect righteousness He imputes to us. We're not justified because of any righteousness we attain in our sanctification. We're not justified because of the quality of our faith or the depth of our repentance. God accepts us only for Christ's sake. Because of our union with Christ, he receives us as righteous in Christ. Thus we are justified because of what Christ has done on our behalf; not because of anything we do, period."

A 15-Year Retrospective on the Lordship Controversy
 
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Ariel82

Guest
#4
https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/lordship.html
"
Believe it or not, it is the Lordship position which actually embraces a full-orbed free grace ... this is because, God initiates and gives us new life SO THAT WE MIGHT believe. AND that same new disposition, brings us to repentance. Repentance is necessary for our salvation ... the gospel itself clearly and unambiguously says so ... this is no gospel addition .. but again, it certainly does not come from our own natural intrinsic ability. God's grace is what enables us to do so. If we look at 2 Tim 2:25 it speaks of how believers are to respond to persons who oppose the gospel and what God may do for them it says, "Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will GRANT THEM REPENTANCE leading them to a knowledge of the truth"
In other words, repentance is something that is granted by God - a result of God openingour eyes and showing us our need of Christ in light of God's holiness, beauty and excellence. An unregenerate man cannot apprehend such spiritual truths (1 Cor 2:14). When the text says that God's action of grace leads them to "a knowledge of the truth" it is clearly referring to salvation. It is not something we come up with ourselves in our unregenerate natures. And what is repentance consist of? First, it is a repentance of all trust in our own ability to save ourselves --- repentance from trusting in our own good works. A full humble recognition from the Holy Spirit that we are spiritually impotent. Next, because regeneration illumines our spiritual understanding, circumcises our heart, unplugs our deaf ears, opens our spiritual eyes and implants new affections, we therefore now love God more than we love sin for the first time. God works repentance in us as the object of our affections have been changed. No one says Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. So this means that we no longer want to live a lifestyle of unbroken sin. Sins power has been broken. Those who do continue in a lifestyle of sin can really have no assurance of their salvation."
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
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#6
grace, justification in Christ, being a sinner yet being sinless in his eyes the main issue I see with these subjects and debates is we tend to overthink it. We make a simple subject a very difficult one because dissect it and most of the time we don't have the understanding to comprehend what we are dissecting and so we find things that are very much how the faith Christianity is dissected and there are hundreds of denominations with thousands of different doctrines with even more thousands of different views and beliefs on those subjects and so the body of Christ is very much separated and fighting against each other far more than the enemy.

In the same way subjects like this are vastly separated
 
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Ariel82

Guest
#7
Just trying to understand the objections when you take out the strawmen
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,706
3,650
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#8
Don't know if this adds anything to the discussion...

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Rom. 4:5 KJV)

It's our faith that is counted for righteousness.
 
Feb 28, 2016
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#9
Ariel,

hubby and I are very pleased at how you presented the correct scriptures using the 'whole council of God'
instead of 'picking and choosing' to suit one's own belief in the 'other thread'...

your heart stood-up for Jesus and you stood-on the correct scriptures...

in the wonderful job that you have done for your Saviour, in bearing witness to the TRUTH, =
we say this lovingly, but sometimes we just must accept that some will not have ears or hearts to hear..

we have learned over these many years of service that there indeed is a 'time to speak and a time to keep silent',
and just allow the peace of God to reign in your heart...

your friends,
otn:):)
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#10
Don't know if this adds anything to the discussion...

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Rom. 4:5 KJV)

It's our faith that is counted for righteousness.
An entry in a book, so to speak, that can be erased through rebellion.

Counted/imputed
G3049 λογίζομαι logizomai (log-id'-zom-ai) v.
1. to take an inventory, i.e. estimate
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,834
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#11
The objection they make is that one cannot be saved without works and this has been played out for hundreds if not thousands of pages on a single thread. VVhat its summed up to is that they are working for Fruit Inspectors, inc. They are judging people's fruit and determining if they are saved.

The problem lies with people not understanding that sanctification and justification are not one and the same. Sanctification is a fruit of salvation and not the root. Those for Lordship Salvation put the cart before the horse, and make of salvation a wage due instead of a free gift. They muddy the waters of definitions not realizing that a true Christian works if given the opportunity.

Yet, they wish to stress the importantance of the fruit as a necessity at the cost of the root that is justification. There is a heavy preoccupation and concern for that which follows salvation but in such a dire way that it unifies itself with justification and changes the Gospel message. That is another gospel and not the Gospel.
 
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Scriptureplz

Guest
#12
Is Repentance Necessary for Salvation?

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[TD="align: left"] What is necessary is understanding how the term "repentance" is used in scripture.

Is Repentance Necessary for Salvation?

By Bill Perkins

The "repentance in salvation" question is hotly debated between the dispensationalists and covenant theologians. The idea of "salvation without repentance" understandably sends many into fits of rage. But is salvation without repentance even possible?

The Greek word for "repent" can be used as a noun or a verb so it is imperative to look at the context of the verse to determine how it is being used.

The Greek word for "repent" is metanoia (noun) or metanoeo (verb). It means "to change your mind" and the context must determine what is involved in that change of mind. Does it mean repent for salvation (addressing non-Believers) or repent from error or sin (addressing Believers)?

Strong's defines the two words this way:
1. (NOUN) meta-noia metanoia, met-an-oy-ah; from 3340; (subjectively) compunction (for guilt, including reformation); by implication, reversal (of (another's) decision): - repentance.

2. (VERB) metanoe-w metanoeo, met-an-o-eh-o; from 3326 and 3539; to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider (morally, feel compunction): - repent.

When the word repent was used in the gospels, speaking to the Jews under the law (i.e. Mark 2:17; Acts 3:19) who had rejected Jesus as the Messiah, the word used was the verb "metanoe." They needed to think differently/reconsider what they thought about who Jesus was. The same is true in 1 Thessalonians 1:9 when they had to change their previous conception about God and turn from idolatry.


But in, for instance, 2 Corinthians 7:10, a different Greek word was used, the verb "metanoe" and used interchangeably with "believe." They "changed their mind" about trusting self, good works or tradition and instead trusted the "finished" work of Jesus on the cross.

Nowhere in the Bible are "believe" and "repent" used together to teach two different requirements for salvation.

Therefore, when salvation from the sinful state is in view, "repent" (a change of mind) and "believe" (a change of what you're trusting) are in essence used as synonyms.

In Acts 20:21 the two words, repentance and faith, are joined by one article in the Greek text which means that the two are inseparable, although each focuses on a different part of the single requirement of needing a saving faith in the gospel. Lewis Chafer wrote:

Too often, when it is asserted-as it is here-that repentance is not to be added to belief as a separated requirement for salvation, it is assumed that repentance is not necessary to salvation. Therefore it is as dogmatically stated as language can declare, that repentance is essential to salvation and that none could be saved apart from repentance, but it is included in believing and cannot be separated from it. (Lewis Sperry Chafer, Vital Theological Issues, Roy B. Zuck, General Editor, Kregel, Grand Rapids, 1994, p. 119).

Roy B. Zuck stated:
Repentance is included in believing. Faith and repentance are like two sides of a coin. Genuine faith includes repentance, and genuine repentance includes faith. The Greek word for repentance (metanoi) means to change one's mind. But to change one's mind about what? About sin, about one's adequacy to save himself, about Christ as the only way of salvation, the only One who can make a person righteous. (Kindred Spirit, a quarterly publication of Dallas Seminary, Summer 1989, p. 5).

Luke substituted repentance in place of belief in Luke 24:46-47.
"And He said to them, 'Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and rise again from the dead the third day; and that repentance for forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem'" (Luke 24:46-47).

Dr. Charles Ryrie says of this verse, "Clearly, repentance for the forgiveness of sins is connected to the death and resurrection of Christ." (Charles C. Ryrie, So Great Salvation, Victor Books, p. 98).

John Ankerberg stated at a Steeling the Mind Bible Conference, Vail, CO: "It's not "faith" that saves you, but rather, the 'object of your faith.' You can have faith that your good works will save you, but they won't. The only thing that can save you is your faith and belief in the gospel of Jesus Christ."

The object of your faith must be the gospel of Jesus Christ alone.

Other passages clearly support the fact that repentance often means faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. (Acts 10:43 with 11:17-18; Acts 13:38-39 with 2:38; and Acts 16:31 uses only "believe.")

Ryrie also points out that in some 50 uses of "faith" or "believe" the Gospel of John never uses the word repent, and bringing men to faith is the written purpose of the book of John. Did John miss something? Did he give only half the gospel? If Nicodemus needed to repent, "believe" is used interchangeably in place of "repent."

Neither did Jesus tell the woman at the well in Samaria to repent. When she recounted her story, the other Samaritans didn't "repent," rather they "believed"

"Belief in Christ, as an expression of a change of mind, focuses on the new direction that change about God must take, namely, trusting in Christ, God's Son, as personal Savior. Jews needed to change their minds about Jesus and realize that He is their true Messiah" (Ryrie, p. 98).

And finally there is, of course, repentance needed in our Christian walk in relation to specific sins we may/will commit (2 Corinthians 7:9; Rev. 2:5; Romans 7).

Christians do sin and when we are convicted about that sin, we need to repent, or change directions, away from the sin toward God's way. But this repentance has nothing to do with salvation. It's simply a Believer maturing in his/her faith.
Also it is worth noting that both Nicodemus (John 3:2) and Joseph of Arimathea (John 19:38) were secret Believers. On the outside they appeared like all the other non-believing Jews. But on the inside they had saving faith in Jesus.
In conclusion, when a non-Believer puts their faith and trust in the gospel of Jesus Christ, they have changed directions/repented of their faith in something that would not save them, or, lack of faith in the only thing that can save them.
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Ariel82

Guest
#13
In response to theOldandNew...

True.,part of why I left the other thread.,, I didn't want to stay where the "host" or the OP would be forced to ignore my post.

However I am perplexed at the debate, because when I take away the strawmen both sides seem to be teaching similar things.

Only difference is whether people believe their can be what has been referred to,as "carnal Christians" or if those people were unregenerate and never saved to begin with.

I am not sure why it matters what we think, it only matters about what God says in their hearts.

We can't always see how the Holy Spirit works in the lives of others but we can witness and testify how He works in our lives.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
#14
The objection they make is that one cannot be saved without works and this has been played out for hundreds if not thousands of pages on a single thread. VVhat its summed up to is that they are working for Fruit Inspectors, inc. They are judging people's fruit and determining if they are saved.

The problem lies with people not understanding that sanctification and justification are not one and the same. Sanctification is a fruit of salvation and not the root. Those for Lordship Salvation put the cart before the horse, and make of salvation a wage due instead of a free gift. They muddy the waters of definitions not realizing that a true Christian works if given the opportunity.

Yet, they wish to stress the importantance of the fruit as a necessity at the cost of the root that is justification. There is a heavy preoccupation and concern for that which follows salvation but in such a dire way that it unifies itself with justification and changes the Gospel message. That is another gospel and not the Gospel.
That is what their opponents claim but it's a straw man..

Yes if Lordship salvation taught that it would be a false works based gospel,but it doesn't..


so how can people object to someone's position when they don't clearly state what is being said?
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,212
2,547
113
#15
Just trying to understand the objections when you take out the strawmen
Oh I wasn't talking about you I found your post very amazing I was speaking of how the subjects are so often discussed and represented although I have to be honest what does strawman mean?
 
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
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#16
Is Repentance Necessary for Salvation?

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QUOTE
You calling this a "straw man", doesn't make it so. This will be my last response to you on this post. If you believe I am building a straw man, you don't believe eternal life is a free gift. Reading the scripture I have suggested is what you need to do instead of trying to debate me.

=========================================

scriptureplz,

you are starting to sound like a 'predator', introspection in needed, especially when addressing
a Brother or Sister who Loves their Lord and Master...
 
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Ariel82

Guest
#17
Oh I wasn't talking about you I found your post very amazing I was speaking of how the subjects are so often discussed and represented although I have to be honest what does strawman mean?
When people say that the group they disagree with believes such and such when that group doesn't believe it at all. Then that person who created the straw man will spend hours refuting what the other person never said or believes in the first place.

Happens alot here.

I just want to know what the real issue is.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,706
3,650
113
#18
An entry in a book, so to speak, that can be erased through rebellion.

Counted/imputed
G3049 λογίζομαι logizomai (log-id'-zom-ai) v.
1. to take an inventory, i.e. estimate
Let's include the scriptural verses with the shades of meaning from Gingrich Greek Lexicon...

4003 λογίζομαι
λογίζομαι—1. reckon, calculate—a. count, take into account Ro 4:8; 1 Cor 13:5; 2 Cor 5:19; 2 Ti 4:16. Credit Ro 4:3f, 5f, 9, 11; 2 Cor 12:6; Js 2:23.—b. evaluate, estimate, look upon as, consider Ac 19:27; Ro 2:26; 9:8; 1 Cor 4:1; 2 Cor 10:2b. Class Lk 22:37.—2. think (about), consider, let one's mind dwell on J 11:50; 2 Cor 10:11; Hb 11:19. Propose 2 Cor 10:2a. Reason, make plans 1 Cor 13:11.—3. think, believe, be of the opinion Ro 2:3; 3:28; 14:14; 2 Cor 11:5; Phil 3:13; 1 Pt 5:12. [pg 119]
 
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Ariel82

Guest
#19
HeRose, Crossnote....no clue what yall are talking about.

But I suspect it's about OSAS and i think McArthur supports OSAS so....not sure how this comes into play with Lordship salvation, because I am sure some folks don't support OSAS or monergeism.
 
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crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,706
3,650
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#20
HeRose, Crossnote....no clue what yall are talking about.

But I suspect it's about OSAS and i think McArthur supports OSAS so....not sure how this comes into play with Lordship salvation, because I am sure some folks don't support OSAS or monergeism.
I may have been responding to this in the OP...

"Because of our union with Christ, he receives us as righteous in Christ. "

with this ...

KJV Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Rom. 4:5 KJV)

Don't know if that clouded or cleared anything.