about the rich man

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Apr 29, 2012
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#1
Scripture reference is Luke 16:19-31.

I wanted to take a narrow look at this passage and comment on one aspect of it. We currently have finite minds. That is we cannot imagine anything that does not have a beginning or an end. Because of this I think much of the strength of this passage is missed. When Jesus said 'there was a rich man' HE was speaking of someone who had lived but was now dead and in hell. So the rich man was already in hell when Jesus spoke - past and present when Jesus spoke. Here we are some 2000 years later - the rich man is still there. He was in hell before Jesus spoke - he is there now. He will be there next week, next month, next year, a 100 years from now, forever,

The opposite is true of Larazas' destination - he's in heaven.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
2,380
113
#2
Scripture reference is Luke 16:19-31.

I wanted to take a narrow look at this passage and comment on one aspect of it. We currently have finite minds. That is we cannot imagine anything that does not have a beginning or an end. Because of this I think much of the strength of this passage is missed. When Jesus said 'there was a rich man' HE was speaking of someone who had lived but was now dead and in hell. So the rich man was already in hell when Jesus spoke - past and present when Jesus spoke. Here we are some 2000 years later - the rich man is still there. He was in hell before Jesus spoke - he is there now. He will be there next week, next month, next year, a 100 years from now, forever,

The opposite is true of Larazas' destination - he's in heaven.
Hello oldman,

In addition, the rich man--along with all of the others who have gone into Sheol/Hades throughout history--they will be resurrected to stand before God after the end of the thousand years at the great white throne judgment, as can be seen from the following:

"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."

I gave you a "like", not because there are people in Hades in torment, but because you understand the rich man and Lazarus as being an actual event and not as a parable as so many people attempt to make it out to be.

[HR][/HR]
 
4

49

Guest
#3
Hello oldman,

In addition, the rich man--along with all of the others who have gone into Sheol/Hades throughout history--they will be resurrected to stand before God after the end of the thousand years at the great white throne judgment, as can be seen from the following:

"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."

I gave you a "like", not because there are people in Hades in torment, but because you understand the rich man and Lazarus as being an actual event and not as a parable as so many people attempt to make it out to be.

[HR][/HR]
Agreed. Lazarus and the rich man were actual living men. Never have cared for the parable explanation to this event.
 
T

TonyJay

Guest
#4
Agreed. Lazarus and the rich man were actual living men. Never have cared for the parable explanation to this event.
The event in question was Jesus telling a story.
Perhaps these two individuals did exist in history but there is absolutely no evidence for this.
What is clear is that what is related shares a clear pattern to the rest of the parables that Jesus shared.

We do have to be careful not to read into the word of God things that are not there (eisegesis).
Instead our goal should be exegesis - to get out the word of God that which is actually there, and no more.
 

WebersHome

Senior Member
Dec 9, 2014
1,940
32
0
#5
-
Fiction can be defined as stories about people, places, and events that,
though untrue; are plausible; viz: realistic.

Fantasy can be defined as stories about people, places, and events that are
not only untrue; but implausible; viz: unrealistic.

For example: a story about a boy like Pinocchio is unrealistic; while a story
about a boy with autism is realistic. The difference between Pinocchio and a
boy with autism is that the one is compatible with normal reality; while the
other is far removed from normal reality.

I have yet to read even one of Jesus Christ's parables that could not possibly
be a real-life story. They're all actually quite believable-- farmers sowing
seed, women losing coins, sons leaving home, wineskins bursting, tares
among the wheat, leavened bread, barren fig trees, the blind leading the
blind, et al.

Now; if he had told one that alleged the moon was made of green cheese;
we would have good reason to believe that at least that one was fantasy;
but none of them are like that. At best; Christ's parables might qualify as
fiction; but never fantasy because none of them are so far removed from
normal reality that there is no possible chance of it ever being a real-life
story.

Luke 16:19-31 is commonly alleged to be a parable; which of course implies
that the story is fiction; and some would even say fantasy. But the parable
theory has a fatal flaw.

Abraham, Moses, and the prophets are real-life persons; they are neither
fiction nor fantasy.

Abraham is especially notable because he's held in very high esteem by at
least three of the world's prominent religions: Judaism, Christianity, and
Islam.

Abraham is also the friend of God (2Chrn 20:27, Isa 41:8). I simply cannot
believe that Jesus Christ-- a man famous among Christians for his honesty
and integrity --would say something untrue about a famous real-life man;
especially one of his Father's buddies.

And on top of that, the story quotes Abraham a number of times. Well; if the
story is fiction, then Jesus Christ is on record testifying that Abraham said
things that he didn't really say; which is a clear violation of the
commandment that prohibits bearing false witness.

There is something else to consider.

Luke 16:19:31 didn't originate with Jesus Christ. No, it originated higher up.
In other words: Jesus Christ was micro managed.

John 3:34 . . He is sent by God. He speaks God's words

John 8:26 . . He that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those
things which I have heard of Him.

John 8:28 . . I do nothing on my own initiative, but I speak these things as
the Father taught me.

John 12:49 . . I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me,
He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

John 14:24 . .The word which you hear is not mine, but the Father's who
sent me.

When people allege that Luke 16:19-31 is not true to life; they insinuate
that God is a person of marginal integrity who can't be trusted to tell the
truth about people, not even about His own friends, which is ridiculous
seeing as how Titus 1:2 and Heb 6:18 testify that God cannot lie.

His impeccable character is what makes that narrative all the more
terrifying. Unless somebody can prove, beyond a shadow of sensible doubt,
that Christ's Father is a tale-spinner; I pretty much have to assume the
story was drawn from real-life; and if not drawn from real life, then at
least based upon real life.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 
Jul 23, 2015
1,950
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#6
:smoke: remember always
that the word law of physics is not written in the scriptures
thats why we must not take the written scriptures word by word
nor letra por letra because that would only make us blind unto the truth
that we seek
:read:
1 Corinthians 2:11
For who among men knows the things of a man, except the spirit of the man, which is in him? Even so, no one knows the things of God, except God's Spirit.
12*But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might know the things that were freely given to us by God.
13*Which things also we speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but which thee Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual things.

as they say no word like gravity and in the scriptures :rofl:
but it doesnt mean that there is no gravity at all
as humans float outside the earth but
isnt the earth that floats inside the space
:read:
Job 26:7
He stretches out the north over empty space, and hangs the earth on nothing.

:8) for the said parables
as it taken literally and spiritually
true
:read:
1 Peter 4:4
They think it is strange that you do not run with them into the same excess of riot, blaspheming:
5*who will give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6*For to this end the Good News was preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed as men in the flesh, but live as to God in the spirit.

:ty:

godbless us all always
 
Feb 7, 2015
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413
0
#7
Guys, guys, guys, it is a parable about Israel and the Gentiles being surprised at how much different each of their fates turned out than they expected. There is no "Abraham's Bosom". This is the only place in the entire Bible it is even mentioned, and no one is ever said to be "carried" anywhere... we all go to the grave.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
2,380
113
#8
:smoke: remember always
that the word law of physics is not written in the scriptures
thats why we must not take the written scriptures word by word
nor letra por letra because that would only make us blind unto the truth
that we seek
:read:
1 Corinthians 2:11
For who among men knows the things of a man, except the spirit of the man, which is in him? Even so, no one knows the things of God, except God's Spirit.
12*But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might know the things that were freely given to us by God.
13*Which things also we speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but which thee Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual things.

as they say no word like gravity and in the scriptures :rofl:
but it doesnt mean that there is no gravity at all
as humans float outside the earth but
isnt the earth that floats inside the space
:read:
Job 26:7
He stretches out the north over empty space, and hangs the earth on nothing.

:8) for the said parables
as it taken literally and spiritually
true
:read:
1 Peter 4:4
They think it is strange that you do not run with them into the same excess of riot, blaspheming:
5*who will give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6*For to this end the Good News was preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed as men in the flesh, but live as to God in the spirit.

:ty:

godbless us all always
Case in point
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
2,380
113
#9
The event in question was Jesus telling a story.
Perhaps these two individuals did exist in history but there is absolutely no evidence for this.
What is clear is that what is related shares a clear pattern to the rest of the parables that Jesus shared.

We do have to be careful not to read into the word of God things that are not there (eisegesis).
Instead our goal should be exegesis - to get out the word of God that which is actually there, and no more.
To refer to the rich man and Lazarus as a parable would be to read into the word of God which is not there. Parables don't use real peoples names and real locations such as the real place of Sheol/Hades. The rich man and Lazarus does not read like any of the parables that Jesus used. The gist of the event is, don't be like the rich man, the soul/spirit are conscious after the death of the body and there is a real place of punishment.
 
R

redeemed2014

Guest
#10
An interesting thing about this passage is that it gives us insight to hell, a lot of preachers today are watering down this area or avoiding it all together. A person in hell will have full functions as a person (feelings, memories, conscience etc.). In verse 26, the great gulf fixed is to separate hell and paradise, so that people could freely pass between. I was always wondering about why would a person want to go from paradise into the hell side. From a human standpoint all I can really come up with is, What if you were on the paradise side and a loved one was on the other begging for mercy as the rich man was?
 
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
413
0
#11
Who here can find the Rich Man's sins? Name just one. For that matter, how were he and Lazarus different that Lazarus would be chosen to go to Heaven, and not the rich Man?

Save yourself the trouble. You cannot find a thing at all.
 
T

TonyJay

Guest
#12
The whole point of a parable is this:
To use commonly understood roles and events (shepherds, brides, bridegrooms, sheep, business transactions, weddings are a few that come to mind) as illustrations of greater spiritual truths.
Of course some (most! all!) of them are plausible as literal events - if they were not then the overarching spiritual message could not be grasped.

I can not for the life of me understand how anyone could make a case that Jesus was lying if the above definition were true.
 
T

thepsalmist

Guest
#13
Who here can find the Rich Man's sins? Name just one. For that matter, how were he and Lazarus different that Lazarus would be chosen to go to Heaven, and not the rich Man?

Save yourself the trouble. You cannot find a thing at all.
???

Maybe I didn't understand what you said?

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

The rich man had a poor beggar starving on his doorstep and didn't care for him ... is that not a sin?
 
Jul 23, 2015
1,950
7
0
#14
To refer to the rich man and Lazarus as a parable would be to read into the word of God which is not there. Parables don't use real peoples names and real locations such as the real place of Sheol/Hades. The rich man and Lazarus does not read like any of the parables that Jesus used. The gist of the event is, don't be like the rich man, the soul/spirit are conscious after the death of the body and there is a real place of punishment.
:smoke: indeed my brothers and my sisters
and in addition to this
not all of us were going to die or shall we say
we will have the opportunities to see
the lord jesus christ the only begotten son
when the time comes
:read:
1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Yeshua died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Yeshua.
15*For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep.
16*For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God's trumpet. The dead in Messiah will rise first,
17*then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.
18*Therefore comfort one another with these words.

:ty:

godbless us all always
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
2,380
113
#15
???

Maybe I didn't understand what you said?

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

The rich man had a poor beggar starving on his doorstep and didn't care for him ... is that not a sin?
Is Willie serious? How about not having faith displayed in compassionate love towards Lazarus, which was most likely the rich man's attitude in general? The rich man is the antitheses of the good Samaritan and is likened to the priest and the Levite who passed around the man who was attacked. I'm amazed that you even brought that up Willie. Obviously God saw a difference, just as he will see a difference to everyone who has the same attitude as the rich man.
 
Feb 11, 2016
2,501
40
0
#16
???

Maybe I didn't understand what you said?

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

The rich man had a poor beggar starving on his doorstep and didn't care for him ... is that not a sin?
I agree

Prov 29:7 The righteous considereth the cause of the poor: but the wicked (((regardeth not))) to know it.

Jerm 22:16 He judged the cause of the poor and needy; then it was well with him: ((((was not this))) to know me? saith the LORD.

1 John 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and (((shutteth up))) his bowels of compassion from him, ((( how dwelleth))) the love of God in him? (See also Luke 12:21, Prov 19:17)

1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue;
but in deed and in truth.

1 John 3:19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth,
and shall assure our hearts before him.

James 2:14
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

James 2:15
If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

James 2:16
And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; not withstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?



 
Feb 11, 2016
2,501
40
0
#17
1 Sam kind of reminds me of that same beggar picture when comparing

1Sam 2:7 The LORD maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up.

There was a certain rich man

Luke 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Even as it says here

1Sam 2:8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, (even Abraham Gen 23:6 ) and to make them inherit the throne of glory:
for the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them.

James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren,

Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

Despising the poor, stopping ones ears to the poor, oppressing the poor and regarding not to know

Prov 21:13 Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.


 

DP

Banned
Sep 27, 2015
3,325
41
0
#18
Scripture reference is Luke 16:19-31.

I wanted to take a narrow look at this passage and comment on one aspect of it. We currently have finite minds. That is we cannot imagine anything that does not have a beginning or an end. Because of this I think much of the strength of this passage is missed. When Jesus said 'there was a rich man' HE was speaking of someone who had lived but was now dead and in hell. So the rich man was already in hell when Jesus spoke - past and present when Jesus spoke. Here we are some 2000 years later - the rich man is still there. He was in hell before Jesus spoke - he is there now. He will be there next week, next month, next year, a 100 years from now, forever,

The opposite is true of Larazas' destination - he's in heaven.
It was most likely a story with fictitious characters, though the place Jesus was describing were real.

Per Rev.20, hell is going to give up the dead, and those whose names are not found in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire, which hell is cast into that lake of fire also.
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
4,940
586
113
#19
Scripture reference is Luke 16:19-31.

I wanted to take a narrow look at this passage and comment on one aspect of it. We currently have finite minds. That is we cannot imagine anything that does not have a beginning or an end. Because of this I think much of the strength of this passage is missed. When Jesus said 'there was a rich man' HE was speaking of someone who had lived but was now dead and in hell. So the rich man was already in hell when Jesus spoke - past and present when Jesus spoke. Here we are some 2000 years later - the rich man is still there. He was in hell before Jesus spoke - he is there now. He will be there next week, next month, next year, a 100 years from now, forever,

The opposite is true of Larazas' destination - he's in heaven.
You might want to have a look at This
 
H

HisHolly

Guest
#20
It's not a parable. Jesus never used names in any parable.