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Thread: Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...

  1. #1381
    Senior Member MarcR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...

    Quote Originally Posted by HeRoseFromTheDead View Post
    This OP reflects the belief that righteousness is an eternal possession, rather than GOD's imputation and righteous behavior. In other words, the belief that a person can be righteous yet do unrighteous things. But John is clear:
    By this the children of God and the children of the devil are evident: everyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. 1 John 3:10


    1 Jn 2:1
    My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
    KJV
    This is a third class conditional which should read: And if any man sin [and you can expect that he will]

    The point is that while a true believer will not practice sin; he will periodically fall into it.

    1 Jn 5:11-12
    11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
    12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
    KJV


    Language tends to be quite constant not varying with our beliefs.

    1Jn 5:11 informs us that the believer already has eternal life; because God has already given it. This is confirmed in verse 12.

    If a person has eternal life at any time; he/she has eternal life ALWAYS or it wasn't eternal while he/she had it!
    MarcR



    Blessings on you! (Nu 6:24-26)


    Col 3:16-17
    16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
    17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

    KJV

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    Default Re: Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...

    Quote Originally Posted by InSpiritInTruth View Post
    By grace we are saved through faith, but what happens when one departs from the faith? Jesus said in our patience we posses our souls, so one would do well to abide in the faith by patient continuance in the words of God.
    Your emphasis is in the wrong place. BY GRACE are you saved through faith. God's Grace is the primary means, faith is the channel.

    One who has departed from 'the faith' (the whole grounds of Christian faith) has in most cases merely revealed that he never truly 'believed' in the first place,

    Hebrews 6:12
    That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises
    .

    Well?

    Hebrews 10:36
    For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
    [/QUOTE]

    Well.?

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    Default Re: Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...

    Quote Originally Posted by valiant View Post
    Your emphasis is in the wrong place. BY GRACE are you saved through faith. God's Grace is the primary means, faith is the channel.

    One who has departed from 'the faith' (the whole grounds of Christian faith) has in most cases merely revealed that he never truly 'believed' in the first place,

    .[/U]

    Well?
    Well.?[/QUOTE]

    Abraham believed YHWH and it was credited to him as righteousness. It is furthermore written, "because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
    Now we know that Messiah is the only sinless person who ever lived or will live. For God to say Abraham is righteous is a great thing. I have heard it said, "without the judgment of Elohim in the Earth there is no righteousness." I would also say that the judgment of Elohim brings about righteousness.
    When Messiah Yahshua was on the stake taking the punishment of sin for you and I, he also made new the instructions for living a godly life now. He holds the key to all doors. Because we do trust we are closer to the promise and covenants given to mankind through various mediators. Adam, Abraham, Moses, among other covenants and judgments are all still in effect, or does God's will change? No He says a thing and it stands for ever. He is not like man who changes his mind.

    God through Messiah has renewed the heart of men to obey him. If only they would renew their minds to obey His Instruction out of Love that they may understand, repent fully, and be healed.

    Think about it there are literally 10's of thousands of denominations that claim to be born again and less than 1% that keeps the Sabbath day. Even fewer than that keep the scriptural festivals, forsaking the worldly ones. All while mainstream Christian theology teaches to keep certain commands and ignore or at worst teaches it is sin to keep certain things. 85% of the 613 commandments in Tanakh are kept by mainstream Christian denominations. Sounds like they keep some of the Law but not all and therefore fail at even what they think they know.

    Peace is peace only when we stop fighting against God and do what's right.

    Hebrew 6 is saying keep going. Even when you can agree with all 613 commands we may find it impossible. Good don't worry about it, we have a high priest who is pleading with the Father for us. Don't give up when you stumble, get up and walk. Walk by the Word of Faith in Messiah by Grace. Aka Word of Truth, Word of Elohim, Way of truth, Truth, Light, instruction, Torah. Ultimately the Instructions are the Messiah Yahshua in a form written for our edification in the Truth.

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    Default Re: Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...

    Quote Originally Posted by Katy-follower View Post
    Do you see what I see?

    This is one of those scriptures that's not as it appears at first glance. It may seem as if it's suggesting that one loses their salvation, but it's not. If you take a really close look at it, it's actually confirming the security of a believer .........


    Christ's ONE sacrifice is sufficient to cleanse us of ALL unrighteousness. We are born of the spirit ONE time, not multiple times.

    This scripture is showing how impossible it is to be saved, then unsaved, then saved again.... because that ONE sacrifice was sufficient to cleanse us the first time!! So to suggest our salvation can be "undone" would be putting Christ to open shame, suggesting that His sacrifice was not sufficient!!! So in other words, "crucifying him afresh" each time by suggesting that He was not able to save us completely the first time, that He must be crucified a second and third time.

    It's impossible to renew them again (because we were already renewed) so how can it possibly happen again, because salvation happens ONE time. It cannot happen a second time. Christ was crucified ONCE and it was sufficient.

    This is confirming the security of the believer, not suggesting that salvation is undone in any way!

    why doesnt the context its written in have any say in the theory of what its saying? to understand it you have to read the entire at least paragraph


    Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.3And this will we do, if God permit.

    4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

    6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

    now what really realllllly helps understand whats being said is the next verse7For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.


    absolutely this is not assuring salvationj irregardless of whether we sin or repent in any way. that last verse is no different from Jesus saying this in the gospel

    john 15: Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

    5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

    7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."


    the same principle is found throughout scripture in pauls writings, johns, in the four gospels, in other places in the book of Hebrews like this here which should be taken in with chapter 4 on this subject

    For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


    28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."


    there is no other way to interpret it hinestly, the same point repeats throughout the Holy bible. i can show you the same point again and again from paul, john, Jesus....... we are required meaning it is not an option for us to continue on sinning when we know we are sinning. we have to accept that were called by Grace, to follow after Our Lord, thats what disciples do, they take thier teachers yoke upon themselves learn and believe in His ways and teachings. we dont have to be perfect in our repentance and obedience day one, but we do absolutely have to stop trying to make the bible not say things we dont want to hear, and say things it doesnt say, its perfect the way God wrote it and trustworthy








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    Default Re: Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...

    What would be the ultimate truth that would confuse us all?

    When we come to Christ, something changes, so ground breaking, we only are aware of it
    in the background, but it does not have a physical form. God establishes a link with us,
    He honours His word.

    Now the apostles experienced this, and then worked out some of the theology.
    They knew Christ, so faith was a matter of the man they knew died and rose again.
    It was not like they were going to forget that. It was a question of what next.

    Witness. See the fragility of life, the desperation of the occupation by the romans,
    the taxes and struggle of every day living, knowing it was just a question of when
    and where ones end would come. But now the dread had gone. Now it was where
    was the opportunity to bring glory to the King.

    And among them came false teachers, rising up who seemed to be simple disciples
    standing against the apostles and telling everyone what the truth really was.
    And some who had a living faith, drifting away, getting into sin and trouble, and then
    some trauma happening, finding they could not regain that which they once had.

    So the letters record it all. Not so much as projection of ideas but actual reality.
    Is today any different? People running off on tangents, denying repentance, or
    sin, bragging about how they are on the top deck of the ocean liner salvation.

    And some guys want to change the words, except they cannot, but they can attempt
    to rewrite the meanings, and turn good evil and evil good. Nothing changes

    17 You have wearied the Lord with your words.
    “How have we wearied him?” you ask.
    By saying, “All who do evil are good in the eyes of the Lord, and he is pleased with them” or “Where is the God of justice?”
    Mal 2:17

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    Default Re: Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...

    Quote Originally Posted by Katy-follower View Post
    Do you see what I see?

    This is one of those scriptures that's not as it appears at first glance. It may seem as if it's suggesting that one loses their salvation, but it's not. If you take a really close look at it, it's actually confirming the security of a believer .........


    Christ's ONE sacrifice is sufficient to cleanse us of ALL unrighteousness. We are born of the spirit ONE time, not multiple times.

    This scripture is showing how impossible it is to be saved, then unsaved, then saved again.... because that ONE sacrifice was sufficient to cleanse us the first time!! So to suggest our salvation can be "undone" would be putting Christ to open shame, suggesting that His sacrifice was not sufficient!!! So in other words, "crucifying him afresh" each time by suggesting that He was not able to save us completely the first time, that He must be crucified a second and third time.

    It's impossible to renew them again (because we were already renewed) so how can it possibly happen again, because salvation happens ONE time. It cannot happen a second time. Christ was crucified ONCE and it was sufficient.

    This is confirming the security of the believer, not suggesting that salvation is undone in any way!
    Matthew 18:8
    If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.


    why would they have to cut off any thing is they were once saved always saved

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    Default Re: Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...

    In order to understand Heb 6:4-6 we should be concerned about in what context we start in chapter 6.

    Vs. 12 of chapter 5
    For you should be teachers, seeing that you have been long in the doctrine. But now you need to learn again the first lines of the very beginning of the Word of Elohim: and you have need of milk, and not strong food.

    Word of Elohim
    Psalm 107:11
    John 3:34
    Act's 7:38

    It is the matter of the Living word that Hebrews 6 has been written to us.
    The basics of the Word of Messiah aka the repentance from dead works too the faith in Elohim.
    This however has been misconstrued to mean something like just trusting in Messiah. Repent yes of dead works, however go on to live by the Faith that Messiah does. Apart from the vine we are dead and produce no fruit of Elohim. The Fruit of the Spirit in the case of obedience doesn't say the Law is done away with it says I do this because Elohim loved me first, now I love His ways.
    Good Fruit is not helping the poor, orphan, and widow. Good Fruit is of the Instructions of the Father. What does Messiah say, "who calls me good? There is one who is good and He is the Father in Heaven.
    This tells me that simply standing on the fire lane painted red with the blood of Messiah is not salvation. No, scripture testifies that fire lane also says No Parking on the blood of Messiah. Cross over to the other side and partake of the covenant through the blood. Messiah made the way light and not dark.

    Don't be dismayed by my words. Elohim who judges the inward man sees your genuine desire to be generous to the poor. He has seen the work to bring the knowledge of the saving grace. However Elohim must judge the Earth and all that resides in it.
    Now why would you not agree with that Word of Elohim given as instructions for living?
    What is Evil is when a person who remains not at peace and thinks they are saved. The person is not evil they are just not at peace and may not even know it. Good works created before the foundation of the earth ARE handed down from the Father to this day. And to this day they have not changed. Maybe we should look at changing our hearts to love them and see why they are so great?

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