Pharisees

[posthuman]

we have a much different perspective about pharisees than people in the 1[SUP]st [/SUP]century would have had.
we're like "ah, pharisee, bad people, hypocrites" and we use the word in a derogatory sense.

but in the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] century, if you asked anybody who were the most generous, godly, righteous people in town, they would have pointed you to the pharisees. they were the 100% obedient, above-and-beyond keepers of the perfect law of God, who spent all day, every day, doing everything they could to be in complete compliance with all that is written in the word.

if there was anyone who was holy, it was a pharisee. if there was anyone you could call a man of God, it was a pharisee. if you wanted to talk to someone who knew about the ways of the One true God, it would be a pharisee. if you wanted to hear the wisdom of God and right doctrine and the explanation of scripture, you'd go to a pharisee.

so when we read "your righteousness must exceed that of the pharisees" -- it's lost on us. but to the people who heard Christ say this, it would have been an enormous shock. it would have made them think, "who then can be saved??" -- it would have seemed like it was hopeless.
we almost get a sense of it when He says "be perfect, as your Father is perfect" -- but a lot of us don't even get it. a lot of us think "yeah i can be as perfect as God"
. . . wow.
do you really have that low of an opinion of the perfection of the Father? or that high of an opinion of yourself?

when Christ, an unlearned son of a manual laborer from the backwaters of Galilee, stood up and opposed the pinnacle of human righteousness on the planet, and called them ignorant and wicked, it was a big deal​.
that's not going up to Benny Hinn and telling him he's a hypocrite.
that's telling Mother Theresa her soul is black.
that's telling Mahatma Ghandi he's a rabble-rouser.
that's calling Winston Churchill a wuss or Chuck Norris a pansy.
that's saying the Dalai Llama is a bully.

there's evidence of this in scripture, too -- when Paul is going down a list of reasons he could have boasted, or had confidence in himself, or what he might have put on a resume, in Philippians 3, he says he is a Benjamite - the one tribe who never intermarried with the Canaanites - so, a 'Hebrew of Hebrews.' with the next breath, he says, "as for the law, a pharisee"

there was absolutely no such thing as more perfect obedience to the law than to be a pharisee.
but this is who Christ called children of the Devil, and of whom He says, our righteousness must exceed theirs, or we will never enter the Kingdom at all.

that is what makes "law-keeper" Christianity so pitiful, and what makes the grace of God and the gift of the righteousness of Christ by faith to all who trust in Him so extremely great and precious.
because no one could be more obedient to the commandments than a pharisee: as far as the flesh is concerned, it is inconceivable to be more righteous than a pharisee. if you think you're doing great because you are keeping some commandments, it's highly likely that you're nothing compared to them. an heathen by comparison.

i'm afraid we just don't have the right view of them, because we've all heard so much preaching about them as though they were hypocrites and liars. we just think of them like they're some sleazy tv preacher who looks good on camera but is doing coke with prostitutes in the back of his limo on monday morning.
but that ain't the right picture.

 

[posthuman]

when Christ, an unlearned son of a manual laborer from the backwaters of Galilee, stood up and opposed the pinnacle of human righteousness on the planet, and called them ignorant and wicked, it was a big deal​.
that's not going up to Benny Hinn and telling him he's a hypocrite.
that's telling Mother Theresa her soul is black.
that's telling Mahatma Ghandi he's a rabble-rouser.
that's calling Winston Churchill a wuss or Chuck Norris a pansy.
that's saying the Dalai Llama is a bully.

the point being that Christ wasn't - as some people give the impression - just saying out loud what a lot of people were already thinking.
it's not as though Jesus was calling Trump a liar or Clinton corrupt. He wasn't simply giving voice to what 'the enlightened' had already been secretly discussing. not just opposing the main-stream narrative, but crushing what everybody took for granted.
Jesus was saying things that simply did not enter into the minds of people at all.


so when the scripture tells us that by faith, God clothes us with a righteousness that is greater than the pharisees, it is not just saying 'congrats, you are better than a sleazy hypocrite' -- far more!
the gift of God is fantastic and indescribable -- something to make us absolutely ecstatic about!

i was dirt, nothing more than muck, lucky if i even had some moisture -- and He set me higher than all the angels, simply because i believe, and trust Him
i just can't even . . .

you know??

​♥

what God is this? what a God this is!!
​

 

[Grace777x70]

That is a great OP!

It is also true that Paul said that satan and his horde would come as "ministers of righteousness" which goes along with your Pharisee situation.

I agree with this and it is so subtle too....sometimes it is hard to pick these Pharisee types out because they could just be a product of false teaching or an incomplete understanding of the gospel of the grace of Christ and are just trying to "defend the faith" that is in their minds.

None of us have complete truth in all things. Only God knows and can judge the difference of what is in the heart of people.

Satan and his horde do not come to the believer in Christ and say "Sin all you want" because no one would for fall for such a lie.

Instead they come as "ministers of righteousness".

They want us to live by our own D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness so that we will be not be depending on what Christ has done for us by grace through faith alone for salvation.

This cuts us off from receiving the grace of God in our lives.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

[SUP]15 [/SUP] Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. ( notice that is "their" works )

This below is what satan is really after...this is why he has false teachers in our midst. He wants us to fall away from grace and depend on our own performance.

1 Peter 1:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace being brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

[Yonah]

First of all its a mistake to bunch all Pharisees in the same group, fact is there were 7 sects of Pharisees in the 1st century and most (not all) adhered to mans tradition more then the actual laws written in the bible, this is why we see a difference in how our Savior addressed them, such as saying vipers as opposed to speaking to Nicodemus as He did, there is confusion about this topic, good post.

 

[ukok102nak]

:hrmm: indeed my brethrens brothers sisters
for we encountered most of them in the past
just like those who told us before that we should only say
the name of the lord and we are free
and someone ask those pharisees before
that if we call the name of the lord we are save
and they say YES
THEN SOMEONE TOLD THEM
THEN WE DONT HAVE TO GIVE TITHES FOR WE ARE SAVE
THEN THOSE PHARISSES GOT ANGRY TO US TOLD US THAT
WE ARE STEALING TO GOD
AND ONE OF US TOLD THEM
THUS GOD NEEDS THOSE THINGS FOR WHAT
GOD CREATED EVERYTHING FROM THE BEGINNING OF ITS CREATION IN THIS REALITY
HE NEEDS NOTHING MATERIAL FOR ANY HUMANS BUT TO ACCEPT
HIS LOVE AND HIS SALVATION

~;> ALTHOUGH EVERY HUMANS CREATE SOMETHING ALSO
BUT THEY ARE NOT GOD WHO IS GOOD AND CANNOT LIE

AND FOR HUMANS TO CREATE SOMETHING EVIL
IS ABOMINATION TO GOD
JUST LIKE THIS PHARISSE IN THIS VERSE
CREATING FALSE WORDS BY PRAYING
AND TAKE NOTE BY PRAYING AND
TALKING TO GOD IN HIS OWN TERM
as it is written
:read:
Lucas: 18. 9. And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10. Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

:ty:

godbless us all always

 

[UnderGrace]

For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such things you do.

I agree that there were many who were trying to keep the law the difficulty was that they had added to the law. They themselves could not keep all the additional laws, traditions and explanations they had created to go along with the law, however, they expected others to do so. So in that sense some were hypocrites and show offs.

I also consider what Joseph Prince has said (is it okay I write his name, I hope the sky doesn't fall) that when Jesus says that your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisee, Jesus was saying it almost more of an insult than high praise, because they only thought they were righteous. But then the people may not of known, it certainly may have been like an insurmountable feat to be like them because they were perceived as righteous.

The whole pharisee thing is a good topic to discuss for sure, because there is much we can learn from how Jesus talked to them and about them.

 

[ukok102nak]

indeed my brethren my sister
brothers and unto all
as they say
they cannot put anything with their own terms unto god who is good and cannot lie
for it would only putting anyone unto a situation
that they are demanding unto god

~;> GOD GIVES WILLINGLY UNTO ANYONE WHO LOOKS FOR THEIR
SALVATION WITHOUT ASKIN ANY MATERIAL THINGS THAT WILL ONLY BENEFITS THE FLESH BUT NOT THE SPIRIT
AND AFTER RECEIVING THE SPIRIT
THAT WILL BE THE TIME TO ASK GOD
ABOUT THE NEEDS OF HUMANS TO EXIST
BUT ONLY FOR THEIR EXACT NEEDS AND NOT BEING GREEDY

. ... as the scripture speaks for itself
telling unto all of us the very words of god itself
and by that we could determine who were those pharisses really are
ad it is written
:read:
Mateo: 23. 2. Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3. All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5. But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6. And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7. And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8. But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

9. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

11. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

12. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

:ty:

godbless us all always

 

[mpaper345]

The Pharisees were the spiritual leaders of the Jewish people,but they had their faults,even faults concerning the Old Testament,which Jesus went against the for that because they should of known better.

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Mat 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Mat 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Mat 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Mat 23:16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
Mat 23:17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
Mat 23:18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
Mat 23:19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
Mat 23:20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
Mat 23:21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
Mat 23:22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Mar 2:24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?
Mar 2:25 And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?
Mar 2:26 How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?
Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath.

Luk 11:39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.

It does appear that the Pharisees were not very good religious leaders according to the Old Testament,and Jesus said they appear outward as righteous,but their inward part was full of ravening,and wickedness,who would devour widow's houses,that did not do the things that really matter.

Joh 9:16 Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.

But there was a division among them concerning Jesus,but those who were thinking that Jesus was the Messiah,probably changed their position later on when they took Him,and He went to be crucified,for they probably thought the Messiah could not be handled like that.

 

[p_rehbein]

posthuman.........thank you for the OP...........no comment, other than, thank you.

I can't "rep" you........but I surely appreciate you as a Brother in Christ.

 

[TonyJay]

First of all its a mistake to bunch all Pharisees in the same group, fact is there were 7 sects of Pharisees in the 1st century and most (not all) adhered to mans tradition more then the actual laws written in the bible, this is why we see a difference in how our Savior addressed them, such as saying vipers as opposed to speaking to Nicodemus as He did, there is confusion about this topic, good post.

You are absolutely correct!

 

[JimmieD]

i'm afraid we just don't have the right view of them, because we've all heard so much preaching about them as though they were hypocrites and liars. we just think of them like they're some sleazy tv preacher who looks good on camera but is doing coke with prostitutes in the back of his limo on monday morning.
but that ain't the right picture.

We know a lot about them (historically, at least). Josephus writes explicitly about them and some of their own writings probably have survived (though identifying exactly which of the writings we have available are the products of Pharisees can be difficult).

 

[TonyJay]

we have a much different perspective about pharisees than people in the 1[SUP]st [/SUP]century would have had.
we're like "ah, pharisee, bad people, hypocrites" and we use the word in a derogatory sense.

but in the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] century, if you asked anybody who were the most generous, godly, righteous people in town, they would have pointed you to the pharisees. they were the 100% obedient, above-and-beyond keepers of the perfect law of God, who spent all day, every day, doing everything they could to be in complete compliance with all that is written in the word.

if there was anyone who was holy, it was a pharisee. if there was anyone you could call a man of God, it was a pharisee. if you wanted to talk to someone who knew about the ways of the One true God, it would be a pharisee. if you wanted to hear the wisdom of God and right doctrine and the explanation of scripture, you'd go to a pharisee.

so when we read "your righteousness must exceed that of the pharisees" -- it's lost on us. but to the people who heard Christ say this, it would have been an enormous shock. it would have made them think, "who then can be saved??" -- it would have seemed like it was hopeless.
we almost get a sense of it when He says "be perfect, as your Father is perfect" -- but a lot of us don't even get it. a lot of us think "yeah i can be as perfect as God"
. . . wow.
do you really have that low of an opinion of the perfection of the Father? or that high of an opinion of yourself?

when Christ, an unlearned son of a manual laborer from the backwaters of Galilee, stood up and opposed the pinnacle of human righteousness on the planet, and called them ignorant and wicked, it was a big deal​.
that's not going up to Benny Hinn and telling him he's a hypocrite.
that's telling Mother Theresa her soul is black.
that's telling Mahatma Ghandi he's a rabble-rouser.
that's calling Winston Churchill a wuss or Chuck Norris a pansy.
that's saying the Dalai Llama is a bully.

there's evidence of this in scripture, too -- when Paul is going down a list of reasons he could have boasted, or had confidence in himself, or what he might have put on a resume, in Philippians 3, he says he is a Benjamite - the one tribe who never intermarried with the Canaanites - so, a 'Hebrew of Hebrews.' with the next breath, he says, "as for the law, a pharisee"

there was absolutely no such thing as more perfect obedience to the law than to be a pharisee.
but this is who Christ called children of the Devil, and of whom He says, our righteousness must exceed theirs, or we will never enter the Kingdom at all.

that is what makes "law-keeper" Christianity so pitiful, and what makes the grace of God and the gift of the righteousness of Christ by faith to all who trust in Him so extremely great and precious.
because no one could be more obedient to the commandments than a pharisee: as far as the flesh is concerned, it is inconceivable to be more righteous than a pharisee. if you think you're doing great because you are keeping some commandments, it's highly likely that you're nothing compared to them. an heathen by comparison.

i'm afraid we just don't have the right view of them, because we've all heard so much preaching about them as though they were hypocrites and liars. we just think of them like they're some sleazy tv preacher who looks good on camera but is doing coke with prostitutes in the back of his limo on monday morning.
but that ain't the right picture.

Imagine how startling this was, not only to the Pharisees themselves, but all who heard this:

7 Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 9 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.” Luke 3:7-9

Every Jew would have fondly believed that their ethnic inheritance guaranteed them certain privileges before God.
Here John (the Baptist) firmly assures them that God is not limited by ethnicity, and, in fact, ethnicity gives no guarantees of anything.
John does not even choose to name another ethnic group but tells the crowd, Pharisees included, that God can raise up children to Abraham from inanimate objects - stones.
Not only had the Jews forgotten that the promise to Abraham was not limited to ethnic Jews but that the promise made to Abraham was confirmed by faith and not by works. They had forgotten that Abraham was not a Jew, and that the righteousness accorded to Abraham was born of faith and not of work, and not of the works of the law.

John also pulls no punches about the fact that Judaism, as it was then, was an unfruitful tree. The allusion to hell in vs 9 is an unmistakable one. These appear to be incredibly harsh words directed at individuals, who by any standard were fine upstanding citizens, of which the Pharisees would have been chief.

The statement John makes here would have been intensely insulting and concerning to all Jews, not just Pharisees, and, probably more than anything else that he said, made him a marked man.

But, what was the problem, the stumbling block?
Why was John calling on these individuals to repent?
And to repent of what?
John makes it clear by his reference to Abraham - Abraham was justified unto righteousness through faith - he believed God and it was accorded unto him as righteousness.
Everyone in John's audience were making their stand on the law, Levitical law - they believed that righteousness came by the law - by obedience to the law.
John is making it clear that they are to repent of their unbelief in the concept of righteousness by faith.

Following vs 9 John gives examples of the sorts of thing that they should do that might be fruits in keeping with repentance - not one of those actions are statutes of Levitical law.
They are all acts for which there is no law.
In other words John is clearly affirming that obeying the law does not bring righteousness, but, rather that the fruit of righteousness before God is beyond the law.
In addition the genesis of righteousness before God is independent of obedience to the law because the righteousness accorded to Abraham was through faith and not through any law, nor any works -

6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. Gen 15:6

What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?[a] 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[b] 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. Rom 4:1-4

Neither ethnicity nor any stand on any premise of law or works can bring righteousness.
We can only do what Abraham did and believe on God!

I am no stone, but to a Jew of that day I may as well have been, but nonetheless, unto God I believe and cling, by faith!
I make no stand on my flesh, nor my abilities, nor on any law, nor any work.

I seek not to obey the obey the law but rather to do what cannot be contained by the law, the things that cannot be legislated by the law, since they are of love, and of grace, and of faith.
This is the outworking of the Gospel, the good news, that the law has been fulfilled in Christ Jesus, that I can follow God, not by statute, but in love and faith, by grace afforded to us, that:

19 We love Him because He first loved us. 1John 4:19

For those of us who are the stones - those to whom the law was never given - we are nonetheless partakers of the New Covenant established by the sacrificial shedding of the blood of Christ Jesus.
We are now of Israel, children of Abraham - according to the promise - yet we are neither Jew nor Pharisee. Our covenant is mediated by the law of faith not the law of statutes. The law of faith is offered by grace. Righteousness is by faith and not by works or the works of the law.

For those who are ethnically the children of Israel, the same promise holds as children of Abraham - you are are heirs to a promise mediated by faith and ultimately fulfilled in Christ Jesus - here is your Messiah. The law of faith is offered by grace. Righteousness is by faith, and by faith in the Messiah - Christ Jesus, humiliated and crucified for our sins, yet risen from the dead, and now ascended into Heaven, Lord of even sin and death, Lord of Heaven and earth - and not by works, nor the works of the law.

Here is Israel:
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal 3:26-29

 

[posthuman]

First of all its a mistake to bunch all Pharisees in the same group, fact is there were 7 sects of Pharisees in the 1st century and most (not all) adhered to mans tradition more then the actual laws written in the bible, this is why we see a difference in how our Savior addressed them, such as saying vipers as opposed to speaking to Nicodemus as He did, there is confusion about this topic, good post.

amen, & thank you for the kind word about the post

-- we have the examples of Nicodemus ((John 3)), Joseph of Arimathea ((Mark 15:43)), Gamaliel ((Acts 5:33-40)) and also that "many of the leaders believed Him" ((John 12:42)) but were afraid to openly acknowledge Him because they were afraid to be put out of the synagogue -- this, before the cross, so that perhaps justifiably, they thought they would be separated from God if they were separated from the temple and the things that under the covenant with Moses they were commanded to attend.

we as humans tend to try to neatly categorize things & people & ideas into black/white, good/evil, hero/villain boxes. but reality often defies this.
what we see is truth mixed with error, and good things tinged with bad, and wheat and tares in the same field. so ((probably the lesson of our whole generation)) it's often a very big mistake to prejudicially judge entire groups.

 

[posthuman]

i think that part of the significance or recognizing who the pharisees historically were, and how they were respected in their time, is that when Jesus warns us to "beware the leaven of the pharisees" He is not just stating the obvious.

just like the admonition to beware false teaching, our reaction shouldn't be 'muchas gracias, Capitan Obvio'
the reason we need to "beware" is that it is something very appealing, and only subtly wrong. largely true, but with little bits of lie sprinkled and woven in. the ratio of leaven to other ingredients in a bit of leavened bread is very small -- you only have a little bit of leaven, and it leavens the whole lump. it's not a whole lump of leaven, and a little bit of flour besides.

so we ought to all be praying for discernment and wisdom and understanding about such things -- because we might easily be fooled if we are not on our guard, and if we are not being wary. and please, pray not only for yourselves, but for all the brothers & sisters!

 

[posthuman]

here are a couple of ((what i thought were)) good articles presenting kind of the same case for the historical picture of the pharisees that i meant to convey, one from an evangelical point of view, and another from a Messianic Jewish site.

The Accuracy of the NT Picture of the Pharisees as Compared to that in Josephus || The Apologetic Report

The Pharisees: Bad Guys or...? || Jews for Jesus

 

[royalscot]

Pharisees is like a policeman and judge combined in a 2016 definition.
jesus said
Matthew 7: v 1 to 5 Judging Others

2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.


paul later said.

Galatians 5: v 1-14 Christ Has Set Us Free

.4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace


the point is, if we use law to condemn or judge, an other person, who is going to save them from there own judgements.
from the same law or any other law.
Romans 5: v 12 to 21.Peace with God Through Faith
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men

sin condemned everyone, every human on the planet.

Justified by Faith
15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners;16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.Galatians 2

so knowing what a saviour has saved you from.


we as humans tend to try to neatly categorize things & people & ideas into black/white, good/evil, hero/villain boxes. but reality often defies this.(your quote)

we are free to think out side the box. because of what jesus did for all mankind. etc

 

[PeterJens]

i think that part of the significance or recognizing who the pharisees historically were

Paul was a pharisee. On becoming a christian he accepted that righteousness or a right relationship
with God was not because of him obeying the law but because of Christ and the cross. He continued
going to the temple and honouring some of the traditions he knew. People forget that though the
condition was not on people to become Jews, as a jew he still followed purification etc.

 

[PeterJens]

Jesus saying your righteousness had to be better than the pharisees and sadduces

They taught things which they did not themselves follow. They missed forgiveness
love and having a pure heart. These are all things that should be our life-blood so
in diligence for righteousness we should be like the pharisees yet have a truth and
reality like Jesus.

 

[royalscot]

17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

Romans 5

it said, here free gift with grace

you need to have faith in or believe in to receive this

 

[posthuman]

Paul was a pharisee. On becoming a christian he accepted that righteousness or a right relationship
with God was not because of him obeying the law but because of Christ and the cross. He continued
going to the temple and honouring some of the traditions he knew. People forget that though the
condition was not on people to become Jews, as a jew he still followed purification etc.

yes -- which reminds me, by the Spirit he teaches us not to let anyone condemn us over observation of feasts & sabbath days et al -- this is both that we are not to judge or be judged over neglecting such rites, and that we are not to judge or be judged over observing them. he writes too, to the Jew he became a Jew, and to the Greek a Greek, to those under the Law as one under the Law, in hope so that he may win them to Christ ((1 Corinthians 9:20)) -- with the interjection that he himself is not under the Law.

this is a radical departure from who he was beforehand - a pharisee, under the law for sure - also another example of a 'good' pharisee ((loosely speaking, because as Christ teaches, and the scripture attests, 'no one is good, but God alone')).

[HR][/HR]
by the way Peter, you're a smart man in my opinion, & i do love and respect you - but i often find myself thinking you're a nutter lol -- so i've got a bit of joy seeing a post from you i can legitimately "like" without any second thought

i don't "like" nearly as many posts as i really do "like" -- please don't anyone think post disagrees with you or doesn't love what you've said just because i haven't pressed that button. actually i think i'm pretty inconsistent in how i 'use' it.